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Who has tried out different USB Cables?

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21 minutes ago, mansr said:

Tell, me what is the Vbus data rate?

Why ask me a question I assume you know the answer to?  You mean the data packet rate?  As I recall I think it is 8 KHz, but do not quote me on that. 


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22 minutes ago, barrows said:

Why ask me a question I assume you know the answer to?  You mean the data packet rate?  As I recall I think it is 8 KHz, but do not quote me on that. 

So the Vbus data rate of the high-frequency DC is 8 kHz? Did I get that right?

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1 hour ago, mansr said:

So the Vbus data rate of the high-frequency DC is 8 kHz? Did I get that right?

Dude, come on, be real!  I think everyone in this discussion understands that DC is DC and has no "frequency"!  If you have something to offer, great, otherwise, I doubt anyone finds your childish attempts to rile things up here amusing.


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1 minute ago, barrows said:

Dude, come on, be real!  I think everyone in this discussion understands that DC is DC and has no "frequency"!

Tell that to Superdad. He's the one who started talking about high-frequency DC.

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ok, now Let's re-read post #79, then get back to USB cable listening comparisons


"The overwhelming majority [of audiophiles] have very little knowledge, if any, about the most basic principles and operating characteristics of audio equipment. They often base their purchasing decisions on hearsay, and the preaching of media sages. Unfortunately, because of commercial considerations, much information is rooted in increasing revenue, not in assisting the audiophile. It seems as if the only requirements for becoming an "authority" in the world of audio is a keyboard."

-- Bruce Rozenblit of Transcendent Sound

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16 hours ago, Superdad said:

No, I referring to the data rate of high-speed (480 Mbit/s for USB 2.0) of the differential D+ and D- signaling--both in the mV DC range.

Well, what of it? You said it was "high-frequency DC" which makes no sense. What did you actually mean to say?

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I use Sonore Renderers which have very, very clean USB outputs (measured), the entire thing is running only on ultra low noise linear supplies, including a dedicated LT 3045 for the USB bus power, and most of my regular DACs also have full galvanic isolation on their USB inputs.  Still, the USB cable used matters, now that cable does not make as big a difference as it does if I try a standard MacBook Pro as a source for testing, but it does still matter.

What do you know, I am not really surprised that in the context of a high end audio system the USB cable matters, hell, video folks see differences in video from different HDMI cables...

John Swenson has repeatedly (why I will not ping him here, he does not need to waste his time on this anymore) explained how/why USB signal integrity matters, and HiFi News has published eye diagrams of various USB cables which show significant variances in signal integrity.


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ok, does everyone agree agree that [1] the eye pattern can look fine even tho there is noise on the USB lines?

 

and that [2] some level of noise on the USB lines could theoretically cause a decrease in SQ (whether it has been measured on the ground plane or wherever inside a DAC)?

 

 


"The overwhelming majority [of audiophiles] have very little knowledge, if any, about the most basic principles and operating characteristics of audio equipment. They often base their purchasing decisions on hearsay, and the preaching of media sages. Unfortunately, because of commercial considerations, much information is rooted in increasing revenue, not in assisting the audiophile. It seems as if the only requirements for becoming an "authority" in the world of audio is a keyboard."

-- Bruce Rozenblit of Transcendent Sound

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1.  I would suspect that the question is overly simplistic in nature: what is "fine" when looking at the eye?  If there is "noise" on the USB lines, at what frequencies and levels would/could this be problematic?  And, if that noise is problematic, could/would it be solved by those USB cables which separately shield the data lines from the power/ground lines?  

 

2.  My understanding of John Swenson's theories on USB issues also includes USB signal integrity itself as a potential problem for increasing noise in the USB receiver-that signal integrity may be a function of how well the USB hub chip is functioning (and they are not all equal...).  this signal integrity can be a separate issue from noise on the USB lines (data and power).

 

OK, off to the PO for product shipping now... 


ROON: DSD 256-Signature Rendu optical--Buffalo PRO or DSC-2--Ncore 400 Stereo-Focus Audio FS888-JL E-112 sub-Nordost Tyr USB, Cardas Clear AC, Iconoclast XLR, Nordost Frey speaker, cables, Synergistic Blue & Hi Fi Tuning Supreme Cu Fuses, Dark Matter system clarifiers.    Design/Build Consultant with Sonore

 

                                                                                                  SONORE computer audio

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On 10/18/2019 at 3:39 PM, barrows said:

@marce, Look it up and see for yourself.  I am sure some (audiophile, and cheap Chinese) cables do not meet spec.  But the spec is only for accurate data transmission.  I am sure in 99.99% of cases there is accurate data transmission, and that data errors have absolutely nothing to do with hearting different performance from different USB cables.  This has been discussed on this site over and over, and I am not going to bother to re-hash it all here again.  If you would actually like to learn some theories as why this may be (and no, I am not aware of any proof of these theories yet: measurements) search for John Swenson's posts on the topic..

If you would actually like to make a positive contribution here, with your considerable knowledge of high speed data transmission, as to why and how the different cables actually do result in different sonic results, that would be appreciated.  Otherwise, the constant badgering of people who already know that different cables do sound different contributes nothing, and is just more noise.

Wow tetchy, I only asked a question...

And have on many occasions mentioned stuff often to be pulled down😁.

 

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I have to say that we badly need some valid testing to show that different cables do sound different, and on which DACs...


"The overwhelming majority [of audiophiles] have very little knowledge, if any, about the most basic principles and operating characteristics of audio equipment. They often base their purchasing decisions on hearsay, and the preaching of media sages. Unfortunately, because of commercial considerations, much information is rooted in increasing revenue, not in assisting the audiophile. It seems as if the only requirements for becoming an "authority" in the world of audio is a keyboard."

-- Bruce Rozenblit of Transcendent Sound

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On 10/18/2019 at 7:39 AM, barrows said:

@marce, Look it up and see for yourself.  I am sure some (audiophile, and cheap Chinese) cables do not meet spec.  But the spec is only for accurate data transmission.  I am sure in 99.99% of cases there is accurate data transmission, and that data errors have absolutely nothing to do with hearting different performance from different USB cables.  This has been discussed on this site over and over, and I am not going to bother to re-hash it all here again.  If you would actually like to learn some theories as why this may be (and no, I am not aware of any proof of these theories yet: measurements) search for John Swenson's posts on the topic..

If you would actually like to make a positive contribution here, with your considerable knowledge of high speed data transmission, as to why and how the different cables actually do result in different sonic results, that would be appreciated.  Otherwise, the constant badgering of people who already know that different cables do sound different contributes nothing, and is just more noise.

WRT to audio, one would have to really try to make a cable that didn't "meet spec". A lot of audiophiles are hung-up on the notion that there is something "special" about an audio signal. There is not. It is a low-frequency AC signal that puts no particular demands on any conductor. USB cables, while carrying higher frequencies than an audio cable are still relatively low frequency conductors. The problems with USB, as I see it, lie in the way the data is arranged on both ends of the cable. While it is certainly possible that different USB cables mess with the timing of the packets somehow (I, personally, don't see how, though), the best that I have heard* still sound mediocre when compared to even Toslink SPDIF. 

* And, the best that I have heard is an AudioQuest Diamond cable (with the "bias" battery) and two Jitterbugs in tandem. Still nowhere near as good sounding as a simple Toslink cable plugged into the combo headphone jack on my MacBook Pro. 


George

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14 hours ago, barrows said:

Wow!  Really, as mentioned so many times before: no one is claiming there is any problem with losing data!

That does not change the fact that different USB cables sound different.  If you do not believe so, that is your opinion, but trying to convince people of such who knows better than you is a lost cause, a waste of your time, and mine.  I would your posts if they actually had anything to offer, but they do not.  You just keep stating your opinion, which is wrong according to my own direct experience testing such.  I have no time for wrong opinions, they are just more noise.

The proposed theory is that different levels of signal integrity give rise to different noise results in the USB receiver circuitry, and this noise makes its way to the important sections of the DAC circuitry (perhaps clock ground plane, perhaps analog stage, etc) where they create distortions/artifacts in the analog output.  this is just a theory at this point, as an explanation for what many people actually hear.

 

Again:  Who has listened to the Curious Evolution cable, in an attempt to get back on track.

You are starting to attack people's opinion who don't share your views a lot, me now gmgraves, and call it worthless... Who is to say you ( with a stake in audio sales) is correct, maybe you should respect others views a bit...

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3 hours ago, Blackmorec said:

 

 

So Ralf, here’s your chance to prove that you actually do know something about hi-fi rather than just operating like some autonomous forum NAND gate. 

Did you read my post...

Conducted immunity... a good place to start.

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59 minutes ago, marce said:

Did you read my post...

Conducted immunity... a good place to start.

Yes I did. Would that test cables? Or DACs? 

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16 hours ago, gmgraves said:

WRT to audio, one would have to really try to make a cable that didn't "meet spec". A lot of audiophiles are hung-up on the notion that there is something "special" about an audio signal. There is not. It is a low-frequency AC signal that puts no particular demands on any conductor. USB cables, while carrying higher frequencies than an audio cable are still relatively low frequency conductors. The problems with USB, as I see it, lie in the way the data is arranged on both ends of the cable. While it is certainly possible that different USB cables mess with the timing of the packets somehow (I, personally, don't see how, though), the best that I have heard* still sound mediocre when compared to even Toslink SPDIF. 

* And, the best that I have heard is an AudioQuest Diamond cable (with the "bias" battery) and two Jitterbugs in tandem. Still nowhere near as good sounding as a simple Toslink cable plugged into the combo headphone jack on my MacBook Pro. 

Hi GM,  seems you have a lot of variables there. There’s Toslink vs USB cable, the MacBook Pro’s clocks, interfaces and power supplies and the receiving end’s clocks, interfaces and power supplies, all of which have the possibility of influencing the signal. As far as I can see, the only conclusion you could reliably reach from your example would be in relatIon to your exact implementation of USB and Toslink...which is why people are advised to try stuff in their system.  As far as I can see, you are just as likely to see the opposite result in terms of SQ in a system where USB has been optimised throughout.   I am 100% certain that USB cables affect the sound although I don’t know why. I do accept that the USB cables are unlikely to modify the bitstream per-se but I do think that clocks, PSs and interfaces on either side of the cable could have a major influence as can EMI picked up by a cable

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1 hour ago, Blackmorec said:

Yes I did. Would that test cables? Or DACs? 

Both you would test the DAC with the cable in position, you could also blast RF at the cable as well to do radiated susceptibility.

They are the basic EMC tests that would be a good place to start...

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