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Who has tried out different USB Cables?


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These were the two cables:

 

The Lush (not 2)

 

And the Inakustik Referenz

 

Even with a DAC with a well a galvanically isolated USB interface the difference was not subtle.  

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6 hours ago, marce said:

Yet other technology has evolved in leaps and bounds in the same time we have had digital audio! Whats holding audiophile audio back... maybe focusing on cables, fuses etc. 

What is the actual question?  Right now most DAC manufacturers do not have the capability (or time/money?) to develop their own Ethernet interface for inside the DAC, so they turn to pre made available solutions-unfortunately the solution most often used is made to a price point which does not allow for best performance.  I think we have all seen specs for DAC's with ethernet inputs which only handle up to 24/192 and DSD 2, right?  While we know that Ethernet is capable of much higher rates (Sonore Renderers handle at least 768 PCM and DSD 512, and likely higher, without any issues).  Also, these affordable "solutions" are just not developed for best performance, they are developed for affordability.

Certainly, the tech to put a really good Ethernet interface inside a DAC exists, as you are well aware; but right now that is not done (for the most part).

As I said, as Ethernet distributed audio takes over from other methods, we will see more and more DACs with better Ethernet interfaces.  In the mean time, external Ethernet renderers offer higher performance than what is currently available in most DACs.

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35 minutes ago, Soothsayerman said:

I'm not saying you're wrong, but is there any evidence to support this assertion? What would you suggest I look at to become more familiar with this if anything?  Thanks!

I think we are a little off topic here, perhaps...  Maybe the OP will indulge us a bit...

 

What kind of "evidence" would you suggest?  I am NOT going to mention specific products and throw them under the bus.  But for a simple example, anyone can see the DACs which have Ethernet interfaces which only accept up to 24/192 and DSD 128, for just a simple example of limitations.  But, that is not all I am talking about,

 

I am a aware of many people who have DACs which have built in Ethernet interfaces, who instead choose to use a Sonore Renderer (and the USB input on their DAC), I suspect the same is true for other Renderers, but my own experience is with Sonore and its customers, for sound quality reasons.

 

The fact is an Ethernet input is essentially a small computer, rendering Ethernet streams to a digital audio format requires a computer (albeit not a hugely powerful one).  As mentioned, the one DAC I am aware of that does this pretty well is the Linn Klimax DS (although sample rate limited).  Take a look at what is inside DACs in terms of ethernet interfaces and ask these questions:

 

1.  Is the Ethernet interface powered by a completely separate power supply from the rest of the DAC?

2.  Is the Ethernet interface's output fully galvanically isolated from the rest of the DAC?

3.  Does the Ethernet interface offer optical input?

4.  How good is the clock running the Ethernet interface?

5.  Does the Ethernet interface support all sample rates to 768 PCM and DSD 512 (or even higher)?

6.  Is the Ethernet interface well shielded physically from the rest of the DAC circuitry?

7.  What software is the Ethernet interface running and is compatible with things like HQPlayer?

 

The above are just the tip of the icebaerg, and the obvious things which I am aware of.  I am sure that John Swenson could point out many, many more (highly technical) design details which matter to the sonic performance of a really good Ethernet interface.

 

As what we have with an Ethernet Renderer is a small computer, if one is going to put that inside a DAC, one has to be very careful to isolate the noise produced by that computer from the DAC circuitry-computer processors are by their nature sources of noise.  Doing this right, inside a DAC is not simply done, or very affordable, that is why the best stand alone Renderers cost significant money.  Again I am not saying it is impossible, just a bit difficult and expensive, and I do believe in the future we will see more DACs with well implemented high performance (sound quality) Ethernet interfaces.

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4 hours ago, PeterSt said:

If only that were true.

USB, as how it is implemented in PC's relate to the mains PE.  USB is a total mess.

Peter, I was referring to how USB is implemented in a DAC.  Anyone who has read all of my posts here should understand that, as I suggested that anyone who expects to connect a consumer computer directly to a DAC via USB and achieve excellent sound is likely to be disappointed.  But this is not a problem with USB itself, or with the USB audio (async) protocols.  Again: every interface has its' share of engineering challenges, these are just things to be solved by good implementation.

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21 minutes ago, mansr said:

Tell, me what is the Vbus data rate?

Why ask me a question I assume you know the answer to?  You mean the data packet rate?  As I recall I think it is 8 KHz, but do not quote me on that. 

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1 hour ago, mansr said:

So the Vbus data rate of the high-frequency DC is 8 kHz? Did I get that right?

Dude, come on, be real!  I think everyone in this discussion understands that DC is DC and has no "frequency"!  If you have something to offer, great, otherwise, I doubt anyone finds your childish attempts to rile things up here amusing.

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I use Sonore Renderers which have very, very clean USB outputs (measured), the entire thing is running only on ultra low noise linear supplies, including a dedicated LT 3045 for the USB bus power, and most of my regular DACs also have full galvanic isolation on their USB inputs.  Still, the USB cable used matters, now that cable does not make as big a difference as it does if I try a standard MacBook Pro as a source for testing, but it does still matter.

What do you know, I am not really surprised that in the context of a high end audio system the USB cable matters, hell, video folks see differences in video from different HDMI cables...

John Swenson has repeatedly (why I will not ping him here, he does not need to waste his time on this anymore) explained how/why USB signal integrity matters, and HiFi News has published eye diagrams of various USB cables which show significant variances in signal integrity.

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1.  I would suspect that the question is overly simplistic in nature: what is "fine" when looking at the eye?  If there is "noise" on the USB lines, at what frequencies and levels would/could this be problematic?  And, if that noise is problematic, could/would it be solved by those USB cables which separately shield the data lines from the power/ground lines?  

 

2.  My understanding of John Swenson's theories on USB issues also includes USB signal integrity itself as a potential problem for increasing noise in the USB receiver-that signal integrity may be a function of how well the USB hub chip is functioning (and they are not all equal...).  this signal integrity can be a separate issue from noise on the USB lines (data and power).

 

OK, off to the PO for product shipping now... 

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1 hour ago, John Dyson said:

it was another frustrated response about apparently poorly designed audio equipment

As you seem to have some expertise in this area, please describe the details of how a properly designed piece of audio equipment would make all USB cables sound the same.

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