Amp Options for B&W 803 D3 Speakers?

[Temporal_Dissident]

Greetings Audiophiliacs,

My first post, which I will be cross-posting to a few other forums.

 

I have the immense pleasure of designing/building my first true audiophile system. I will spare you the backstory. Point is, it is happening.

 

Aside from the million other questions I am researching related to moving coils, Roon, room correction,...I investing most of my time and money on the foundation: Preamp > Power Amp(s) > Speakers. The decision I am spending most of my time on relates to amplification.

 

Unfortunately, I do not live in a city where I can easily test hifi systems, so I have to rely on a lot of written research and reviews.

 

However, today, while traveling on business in Hong Kong, I stumbled on a B&W showroom. I was able to listen to a pair of 803 D3 speakers, which have been on my consideration list for a while (along with Focal Sopra No 2's). We listened to several CDs. The sound was the best I've ever experienced. A piano/cello piece was so incredibly quiet. Velvet blackness. Dark Side of the Moon's opening transition from "Speak to Me" to "Breathe" blew me away. The clarity and openness between the instruments was remarkable. Frankly, it was a near-spiritual experience.

 

Here is where it got interesting...

 

Afterwards, during lunch at a restaurant in the same building, the waiter saw my B&W catalog and said I should go to the “other” hifi showroom in the building. Why not? I headed back up the elevator to find a KEF showroom. I was able to listen to a pair of Reference 5 speakers, and then the $224k Muon. The source was a digital file through Roon. I know the R5s were powered by a Class D amp, not sure about the Muon.

 

Neither KEF setup approached the 803 D3's. Not even close. I know sound is subjective, but I played that same sequence from Dark Side of the Moon (which I've been listening to for 30 years) and I am telling you there was no comparison.

 

WTF? Why?

 

I think it must have been the amp. When I asked the B&W rep about the massive, black stereo power amp running the 803's, he laughed and said, "oh, it is only about 100 watts,...but it is pure class A." It was a Gryphon. I think it must have been an Antileon EVO Stereo.

 

Anyway, the moral to the story (for me, anyway) is that the advice I’ve often heard, “Amplifiers are far, far more important than speakers” was made very real for me this afternoon. It has scrambled my head. Whereas I had been looking for a high-quality, high-power, solid-state, stereo power amp, I have now fallen back down the rabbit hole and am reconsidering tubes, mono-blocks, and, God forbid, pure Class A amps.

 

What do I do?

 

(Caveat: all due respect to the seekers out there, I really do not want to be an audiophile who is constantly tearing my system apart and trading components up, out, and sideways. I know digital hardware will change, but with my Preamp>power amp(s)>speakers, I want to be extremely intentional about what I buy, and then not mess with it for a decade. The idea of “try something and if you don’t like it, trade it out” does not appeal to me.)

 

I love the B&W 803 D3. While I haven’t bought them yet, let’s pretend that the loudspeaker variable is held constant.

 

I am tied in a pretzel over the amp question. I am prepared to invest in a high-end analog pre-amp, mono-blocks, separate DAC, power conditioning, etc.. I’ve looked at PS Audio, McIntosh (tube and solid-state), Anthem, etc. I tried to look at Classe, but it appears their status as a company is too uncertain.

 

I am open to any, all advice or thoughts. Does my listening room experience today trigger a thought with anyone? What was it about that Gryphon Class A > B&W 803 sound? And how do I get it without spending $32k on an amp?

 

Thanks in advance

[Rexp]

The best would be to go back to the HK dealer and ask him to put a system together within your budget, then listen to it. He may keep the 803's in or may not depending on budget. Buying blind at this price point is not advisable. Good luck! 

[Axiom05]

The KEF's and the B&W should sound nothing alike. Their on- and off-axis frequency responses are so dissimilar that it is difficult to compare them. The KEF Ref 5 is a pretty neutral speaker, the B&W isn't. Comes down to personal taste/preference. There is plenty of info available if you search around.

[mcgillroy]

Linn‘s Exact digital crossover and room correction is available for 803s. The effect is rather remarkable but you’d need a Linn streamer,  an Exaktbox and 8 channels of amplification for it. There are several options offered by Linn to facilitate that.

 

I have heard one of these systems at a demo and it was very good.

 

Give it a try if you find a demo. Also have a look at the Linn site for more info.

[StephenJK]

On 8/9/2019 at 6:43 AM, Axiom05 said:

The KEF's and the B&W should sound nothing alike. Their on- and off-axis frequency responses are so dissimilar that it is difficult to compare them. The KEF Ref 5 is a pretty neutral speaker, the B&W isn't. Comes down to personal taste/preference. There is plenty of info available if you search around.

Yes, but.....he said Muons!  The B&W 803 sound better than the KEF bespoke custom flagship speakers?  Something doesn’t compute.  I have the Blades and when I win the lottery, Muons are the first order of business.  

[mcgillroy]

Another option would be Passlabs XA25. Don’t let the 25w label fool you, these things have juice and can drive 803s well. Class A and great sound.

[wgscott]

The problem is you don't have a controlled experiment.  The differences could be due to the room, the speakers (as others have noted, B&W has a non-neutral house sound, which includes the infamous "BBC Dip" hard-wired into the crossovers), or any number of things.  Amps should be completely neutral, but some induce euphonic colorization.  The source (DAC, or CD player, or whatever) could sound different, and there are a large number of people who claim the interconnect cables can make a difference.  But the room and speakers are the most likely candidates.

 

If you could get Dealer A to stick a different amp on the speakers, you might be able to assess whether the difference is due to the amp.  (I am willing to bet it is not.)

[STC]

On 8/9/2019 at 1:00 AM, Temporal_Dissident said:

What was it about that Gryphon Class A > B&W 803 sound? And how do I get it without spending $32k on an amp?

 

How different are the KEF, B&W and your usual listening space where you listen to the DSOTM?

[Temporal_Dissident]

On 8/17/2019 at 11:48 PM, wgscott said:

The problem is you don't have a controlled experiment...

 

True, true. I am in an education phase. Doing a lot of asking, listening, and learning. Admittedly, my post was a little naive, but this was partially by design to fish for responses I could learn from. Most responses on other forums have either been like yours (eg - no way to know) or have suggested a specific amp, which is a little farcical. 

[Temporal_Dissident]

On 8/18/2019 at 6:34 AM, STC said:

 

How different are the KEF, B&W and your usual listening space where you listen to the DSOTM?

Sort of like comparing Apples and Elephants. 

[STC]

1 hour ago, Temporal_Dissident said:

Sort of like comparing Apples and Elephants. 

 

Room acoustics and your familiarization with the reverb can play a bigger role in your preference.  A bigger room means a longer reverb so it can sort of tame the impact of DSOTM "Time" like tracks. 

[Ralf11]

Find the impedance curve for the B&W 803 D3 - that will tell you how sensitive it is to the choice of an amp.

 

A good clear amp need not be ultra-expensive.  I prefer to use a good solid-state amp with a nice euphonic tubed pre-amp.  This greatly reduces the power draw, wasting of energy and cost, while giving plenty of "tubey goodness" in the sound.

 

For $400 a NuForce amp is a good choice.  later, if you think there is something significantly better you can buy that and move the NuForce to your bedroom system.

 

For pre-amps I use a Audio Research line stage (replaced a Sonic Frontiers).  I buy half priced used ones after a dealer refurbs them, dials them in, and puts a warranty on them.  I could pay more, I just enjoy being an audio cheapskate.  And... they are easy to sell w/out much or any loss if you want to "upgrade" later.

 

Avoid buying depreciating assets...

 

Instead, put $$ into the room acoustics and in the highest SQ releases of music you really like.

 

Or power chords... whatevah

[botrytis]

11 minutes ago, Ralf11 said:

Find the impedance curve for the B&W 803 D3 - that will tell you how sensitive it is to the choice of an amp.

 

A good clear amp need not be ultra-expensive.  I prefer to use a good solid-state amp with a nice euphonic tubed pre-amp.  This greatly reduces the power draw, wasting of energy and cost, while giving plenty of "tubey goodness" in the sound.

 

For $400 a NuForce amp is a good choice.  later, if you think there is something significantly better you can buy that and move the NuForce to your bedroom system.

 

For pre-amps I use a Audio Research line stage (replaced a Sonic Frontiers).  I buy half priced used ones after a dealer refurbs them, dials them in, and puts a warranty on them.  I could pay more, I just enjoy being an audio cheapskate.  And... they are easy to sell w/out much or any loss if you want to "upgrade" later.

 

Avoid buying depreciating assets...

 

Instead, put $$ into the room acoustics and in the highest SQ releases of music you really like.

 

Or power chords... whatevah

 

I totally agree. If you want to go Audio Research, they are still selling NOS Digital amps they built (DS250, etc). They were great amps also.

[Blake]

The reason why the KEF's may have underwhelmed compared to the B&W's is perhaps the B&W's were optimally set up in that room, whereas the KEF's setup may have been sub-optimal.

 

Matching the speaker to the size and dimensions of your listening room, the placement of your particular speakers in relation to the room and your listening position in that room, together with acoustical treatments are far more critical than the amp or anything else.

 

Judging sound by listening to a system in another venue is of some value, but not much.  If there is any way the dealer will give you a home trial and you are able to get the speakers set up appropriately in your room, then and only then can you know for sure whether any speaker/amp combo will ultimately please you.  

 

Also, if you are unable to place the speakers in the optimal location for your room, you are throwing away a significant portion of the speaker's performance capability (i.e. putting the speakers right up against the wall or crammed in the corners, unless the speaker is designed for such placement; see e.g. Wilson Duette and Audio Note).  

 

 

[cjf]

@Temporal_Dissident

 

I'm familiar with the sound of the 803 D3 & 802 D3 and owned for several years the 803 D2's. I almost purchased a pair of 802 D3's when shopping for my current speakers but ultimately thought the Magico S3 sounded better so I went that route this time around.

 

Anyway, in terms of amplification during my time of ownership with the 803 D2's I mostly used Class D amps. But initially before going down the path of Class D amps I used a Pass Labs X250 for quite awhile. This Amp worked very well with the B&W's and had plenty of drive for my purposes. For whatever reason or another I ended up selling the Amp to try something new.

 

The first Class D Amp I owned with the B&W's was a pair of DIY Hypex NC400 Mono Blocks that I built myself. They performed really well with the 803 D2's but I decided that I wanted more and tried the Merrill Audio Veritas for awhile. They were a slight upgrade from my DIY Amps but my thirst for even more ended up leading me to the flagship Mola Mola Kaluga Mono's. Those Amps were a great match on the B&W's FWIW but a terrible match on the Magico's I own now.

 

Knowing what I know today and if I were in your shoes I would look very hard into the newer Pass Labs XA.8 amplifiers for use with the B&W D3's. I currently own the Pass Labs XA60.8 and have been blown away by them in all aspects. I see zero reason to ever upgrade at this point, there are that good...IMO of course.

 

The XA60.8's aren't cheap (@ $14K a pair) but are at least 1/2 the price of the Gryphon you heard and I would wager a bet you wouldn't be disappointed with the XA60.8's paired with the D3's. As someone else mentioned, the XA line of Amps from Pass Labs have a Dr. Jekyll and Mr. Hyde personality that allows them play way beyond their advertised output. Each XA60.8 has enough power supply to play in the 350w range if the need arises.

 

This is the route I would take if I were you OP. Good luck in your search

[pippenainteasy]

The KEFs are basically designed around the Harman target curve and follow the design principles of Dr Floyd Toole's research at the National Research Council. It's based around the psychoacoustic preferences of the average listener. B&W with it's recessed mids and peaked highs are much more boutique preference, at least for most listeners under 50. For older listeners, especially those dealing from a reduction in acoustic bandwidth over a lifetime of loud movies and concerts, it might be closer to an ideal tonality.

[mazuly]

I have had B&W speakers for more than 20 years.  I have 804 D3 now and feed them with Arcam P49 (discontinued and replaced with PA 240 which are essentially the same).   Supposedly the Arcam stays in class A until 50 watts and then switches to class G.  In any case I really liked the sound with this combination and bought them.  
 

When I was auditioning the speakers we did connect the Arcam to 804 D3 as well and they sounded really good, better than 804 D3, but of course I could not afford the 803s so went with 804s.

[mazuly]

Also I have read good things about Linn Selekt and B&W 804 D3.

 

With Selekt you can actually use 2 amp modules and Bi-Amp the 803s.  With Katalyst DAC it should be less than $18K for a whole system (Preamp, Streamer, DAC and Amp).

[MetalNuts]

On 8/9/2019 at 1:00 AM, Temporal_Dissident said:

I love the B&W 803 D3. While I haven’t bought them yet, let’s pretend that the loudspeaker variable is held constant.

 

I am tied in a pretzel over the amp question. I am prepared to invest in a high-end analog pre-amp, mono-blocks, separate DAC, power conditioning, etc.. I’ve looked at PS Audio, McIntosh (tube and solid-state), Anthem, etc. I tried to look at Classe, but it appears their status as a company is too uncertain.

 

I am open to any, all advice or thoughts. Does my listening room experience today trigger a thought with anyone? What was it about that Gryphon Class A > B&W 803 sound? And how do I get it without spending $32k on an amp?

 

I don't know the recommended power requirement of 803 and if you think 50 watts is sufficient, then you may consider the new Accuphase E-800 which is a class A integrated amplifier with 50 watts output at 8ohms.  The listed price in Hong Kong is about USD11,500. 

 

 

[Wised]

I use an MC462 with a C53 preamp. A trio made in heaven. Matched at 4 ohms. The 803's simply shine when driven stoutly. I have them complemented by a pair of DB1 subs. Bass with the combo is veritably bottomless and extraordinarily powerful. Not overbearing, just a seemingly endless capacity to produce the lowest registers cleanly at any sound level with no distortion. Matching is superbly simple simply use the 802 d2 setting of the subs and done. 

 

[beerandmusic]

On 8/8/2019 at 10:00 AM, Temporal_Dissident said:

Greetings Audiophiliacs,

My first post, which I will be cross-posting to a few other forums.

 

I have the immense pleasure of designing/building my first true audiophile system. I will spare you the backstory. Point is, it is happening.

 

Aside from the million other questions I am researching related to moving coils, Roon, room correction,...I investing most of my time and money on the foundation: Preamp > Power Amp(s) > Speakers. The decision I am spending most of my time on relates to amplification.

 

Unfortunately, I do not live in a city where I can easily test hifi systems, so I have to rely on a lot of written research and reviews.

 

However, today, while traveling on business in Hong Kong, I stumbled on a B&W showroom. I was able to listen to a pair of 803 D3 speakers, which have been on my consideration list for a while (along with Focal Sopra No 2's). We listened to several CDs. The sound was the best I've ever experienced. A piano/cello piece was so incredibly quiet. Velvet blackness. Dark Side of the Moon's opening transition from "Speak to Me" to "Breathe" blew me away. The clarity and openness between the instruments was remarkable. Frankly, it was a near-spiritual experience.

 

Here is where it got interesting...

 

Afterwards, during lunch at a restaurant in the same building, the waiter saw my B&W catalog and said I should go to the “other” hifi showroom in the building. Why not? I headed back up the elevator to find a KEF showroom. I was able to listen to a pair of Reference 5 speakers, and then the $224k Muon. The source was a digital file through Roon. I know the R5s were powered by a Class D amp, not sure about the Muon.

 

Neither KEF setup approached the 803 D3's. Not even close. I know sound is subjective, but I played that same sequence from Dark Side of the Moon (which I've been listening to for 30 years) and I am telling you there was no comparison.

 

WTF? Why?

 

I think it must have been the amp. When I asked the B&W rep about the massive, black stereo power amp running the 803's, he laughed and said, "oh, it is only about 100 watts,...but it is pure class A." It was a Gryphon. I think it must have been an Antileon EVO Stereo.

 

Anyway, the moral to the story (for me, anyway) is that the advice I’ve often heard, “Amplifiers are far, far more important than speakers” was made very real for me this afternoon. It has scrambled my head. Whereas I had been looking for a high-quality, high-power, solid-state, stereo power amp, I have now fallen back down the rabbit hole and am reconsidering tubes, mono-blocks, and, God forbid, pure Class A amps.

 

What do I do?

 

(Caveat: all due respect to the seekers out there, I really do not want to be an audiophile who is constantly tearing my system apart and trading components up, out, and sideways. I know digital hardware will change, but with my Preamp>power amp(s)>speakers, I want to be extremely intentional about what I buy, and then not mess with it for a decade. The idea of “try something and if you don’t like it, trade it out” does not appeal to me.)

 

I love the B&W 803 D3. While I haven’t bought them yet, let’s pretend that the loudspeaker variable is held constant.

 

I am tied in a pretzel over the amp question. I am prepared to invest in a high-end analog pre-amp, mono-blocks, separate DAC, power conditioning, etc.. I’ve looked at PS Audio, McIntosh (tube and solid-state), Anthem, etc. I tried to look at Classe, but it appears their status as a company is too uncertain.

 

I am open to any, all advice or thoughts. Does my listening room experience today trigger a thought with anyone? What was it about that Gryphon Class A > B&W 803 sound? And how do I get it without spending $32k on an amp?

 

Thanks in advance

 

Alot of people will argue, but B&W and Mcintosh are a marriage made in heaven....you won't be disappointed.  Most people here will tell you amplifiers don't matter that much, or that a dac is much more important.  Mcintosh retain their value too, so if you aren't happy, there are a 100 people waiting in line for yours.  Don't be fooled by the naysayers....they retain their value for a reason...  second choice would be a nelson pass amp.

 

 

edit---wow just noticed this thread is 8 months old...lol...he never came back and said what he ended up getting.

[DeathFugue]

I just received a pair of B&W 803D3s and absolutely love them! (I bought the gently used floor models and saved about $2500.) They are the most transparent, detailed, and dynamic speakers I have heard or owned. It's like discovering my music collection for the first time. I initially thought I was going to buy Martin Logan Impression 11a speakers, but the B&Ws, while more expensive, were just as transparent/detailed, but they lacked that tell-tale "plastic tone" of the MLs. And I have that "marriage made in heaven" by driving them with a McIntosh MA9000!

[Wised]

Excellent choice! They will take as much power as you can give them. They can absorb prodigious power levels without hint of strain. Another great character of that pairing is that they will also sound glorious at low levels.

[DeathFugue]

2 hours ago, Wised said:

Excellent choice! They will take as much power as you can give them. They can absorb prodigious power levels without hint of strain. Another great character of that pairing is that they will also sound glorious at low levels.

Thanks. At some point, I might return to a tube amp, possibly an Ayon Audio Triton Evo, a 125 wpc class A amp. I mainly listen to classical and a little jazz, so would that amp or something similar drive them well enough? My peak level according to my dB phone app never even hits 90 dB--mostly 75-85.

[Wised]

Absolutely. The 803 has decent sensitivity. As long as you're not planning to play very loud a 125 tube amp should be just fine. Note that it will sound very different than with solid state, the 803d3 has extraordinary resolution, thus tubes vs transistors will be readily apparent. You will have to decide which appeals to you the most. If it were me I would "test" before swapping. Remember tubes are naturally distorting (warm) some people love that characteristic some don't. I like them both but a tube amp that could drive the volume levels I occasionally enjoy would most definitely break the bank. High power tube amps are ridiculously expensive.