HQPlayer4 EC modulator tips and techniques

[rando]

If I might interject. 

 

This subject gained speed due to @JTS mentioning a fairly standard tune of his i9-9900k video editing server resulted in considerably better results than those with very similar hardware were claiming.  Not wanting to go completely off topic, we quickly established the nature of changes he effected.  

 

Based on a very slim sample of respondents it was clear

7 hours ago, ted_b said:

the huge HQPlayer threads are getting bogged down in hardware discussions, being that folks are having a hard time finding the right combination of OS, cpu, and bios tweaks to get these things running without interruption.  So......

 

So a good place to start might be establishing a more in depth picture of what a fairly standard BIOS profile for a video editing server resembles that matches with the small snippet of details he provided.  (I can toss off some links or more direct info later.  Puget Systems articles would be a good place to dig around in the meantime.)

 

 

So far as I have seen, and I did just recheck, this is most informative description of Intel BIOS and other settings impacting HQP EC modulators for the better.  Before choosing a direction to move conversation forward it's probably good to reiterate what I mentioned in the HQP thread.  

 

4 hours ago, rando said:

There seems to be a sizeable group unaware of how to tune their gaming optimized mb's in general.  Without the strain of EC modulators making clear wasted potential. 

 

You could easily do serious harm if you don't know what you are in doing in BIOS or an ASUS/Gigabyte/etc desktop program.  There is a very specific balance that needs to be maintained and there can be a lot of testing after rechecking to assure stability if you starting pushing the envelope.  Establishing a set of terminology across manufacturer BIOS, tackling the utility and connection to other parts and the whole of each setting, and very importantly what if any gaming derived calculator or process is trustworthy or even relevant is going to be big and messy.  People are going to need to keep their cool and accept setbacks.  Or else I really doubt the mostly silent members who would hold the greatest impact on this being a fruitful endeavor will fail to appear.

 

Were there a pile of current top shelf consumer hardware at my disposal I'd have dug in and then reported back if largely unrecognized performance with certain chips or combinations of hardware were feasible.  The idea of putting a bunch of heads together with highly evolved HQP machines sounds very interesting.  Quite often an older processor will reveal a highly sought after quality that allows it to keep in the fight.  Until the six core 8000 series Intel were released it was possible to throttle the snot out of an i5-2400 system (similar to bolting a whole ton of parts on a bulletproof engine block) and get acceptable performance.  Anyways, I might revisit the idea of getting an Asus ROG Maximus XI Gene mATX with double-capacity DIMM if it looks like that might be a worthwhile experiment.  🥳

 

 

[rando]

Getting confirmation dropouts while playing w/EC modulators were from repeated thermal throttling, among other worrisome oblique recognitions, make me cautious about relaying info.  The majority here are probably nearer the opposite end of the spectrum, ie weighing (or soon will be) 1% improvements out of impeccably detailed comprehension and looking for firmware updates to fix things further.

 

Back to that initial concern, heat management with active cooling.  Thermal paste and coolers (CPU & GPU) really need to be sorted out early and often(!) when you are at 80%-90% of TDP on +100w processors regularly.  Surface prep and awareness of paste conductivity!  So much more.  This really is a huge determinant, but we're in the software forum.  

 

@JTS overview hit a lot of key points.  Expand all that to encompass RAM (DIMM and the xGB inside video cards) as well as GPU processor and the full picture starts coming into view.  Restraint is a noble quality.  Meaning knowing well enough to leave options alone because in a vast number of cases they are... kludges to safe fail against gamers or provide for a dire need of some incessant bugger.  

 

Please anyone who has spent years streamlining these aspects of their fanless music pc.  Speak up.  Refinement is where the interesting individual solutions that will help here start popping up.  That and willingness to try turning your Threadripper into a middling horsepower chip like @Hammer  Who grasped the spirit of experimenting in directions you might not like learning from.

[rando]

Effectively I was buoying up the tech sense of members on AS "the majority HERE" while cautioning there can be risks tinkering with BIOS and/or settings.  What is vague or confusing was aimed at not alienating those who'd benefit from clicking around the linked articles page.  Multiple members have related really giving thermal protection a thorough drubbing in the main HQP threads.

 

If not being aware of poor stock settings is problematic.  Advising restraint above all else has been central to what JTS and I want to get across when beginning fixing them.  Small steps, slow and attentive, stability!  

 

 

 

 

13 hours ago, ted_b said:

folks are having a hard time finding the right combination of OS, cpu, and bios tweaks

 

13 hours ago, ted_b said:

Please be specific about how you run them (what hardware and settings seem to make a difference), what OS and variant you are running, and any plain speaking bios and/or OS tweaks (turning off cores, overclocking, etc)

 

@ted_b  You know more than you are letting on.  Why the Monaco server' gaming motherboard required commissioning a custom BIOS for example.  This topic is either bumping against that ceiling or hardly aware of it from far below.  Suggest another means of expressing "impeccably detailed comprehension" that makes sense if that one bothers you.  

[rando]

On 8/7/2019 at 10:51 AM, ted_b said:

I am starting this thread for another reason, too:  I need a more powerful server environment than my current i7-6700k and while my audio room gets built I can do something hardware-wise to prepare to enjoy HQPlayer 4.

 

You opened this thread to ask a question about your server hardware that deserves being answered.  Short answer, I point blank asked Miska about hardware and his reply was EC+512 is at least a year or two from reality.  At least if your old machine did 512 with the older modulators nothing changed to impact that.  Quite telling, at the end of his response he made a reference to video game/simulator developers releasing products the market can't fully use for at least one product cycle and often more.  Spent all morning reflecting on the forum attempt to design and manufacture a custom audio only motherboard that proved too hard to make a reality.  

 

Before exploring technical software revisions to your server (I'm going to condense the following into a quote box to avoid a wall of text) I'm confident, if you are willing, a good OC will allow DSD128 using ASDM7EC modulator for a very minimal hardware upgrade cost.  So you can determine for yourself if it matches or betters non-EC 512 until such point in the distant future upgrading is realistic.  To be able to answer your question means inquiring how prepared the current server already is for the added strain.  Basically a pre-OC'ing checklist for any machine.  

 

14 hours ago, rando said:

Using a quad core processor (i7-6700k) and three gen old gpu (GTX960) both mounted on a still decent older mb.  Having a detailed picture of the physical build construction is step one.  Thermal paste has seriously changed into a space age concoction everyone should switch to using.  Also in revisiting your entire cooling system, it will pay larger dividends the bigger changes it would need to effect to go from low power and fanless to exploring in the opposite direction.  Possibility exists to upgrade fans on GTX 960 to ones with a better blade shape that run quieter and cool better at all speeds.  Finally, need to examine the refined power scheme you have going on to determine if it might be good to have a cheap test PSU to avoid wear on expensive parts during the lengthy period of making adjustments.  Boilerplate: check for bulging caps and all other signs of failure, heat warping, smells, etc.   ($10-$20 fans, probably own an ATX PSU) 

 

Next, searching for instances of custom BIOS for mb and gpu.  There will tons for the latter, but we're only interested in candidates from CUDA optimized work servers.  Flashing gpu BIOS is not necessary (Oh so many horror stories of bricked video cards!!).  Any custom motherboard BIOS ideally would deaden or wall off "features" to promote industrial software running intensive calculations with the least amount of interference.  IF something was found it would need to be vetted for HQP4 use and STABILITY!!!  Call these BIOS changes a decision that would need to be made early on which may not even exist in a credible form.  Or might harm SQ.  At least this was touched on for general awareness of those with the skills yet somehow unaware of the possibilities.  ($?, Might have to pay for custom BIOS)

 

Once sure hardware is now in a good place, or was taken care of long ago, we check what BIOS version we are (if it wasn't changed already) on and then go directly to the appropriate manufacturers support page for the motherboard.  Based on security and other needs make an informed decision to update or not.  New versions can allow supporting firmware updates and a rash of other useful stuff.  This comes after deciding against a custom BIOS because it becomes impossible to use older BIOS versions after some updates.  Once any BIOS changes are flashed into memory you might unplug the boot and all other drives so BIOS loads automatically.  Going to be spending a fair amount of time in here (probably doing research on another computer at the same time) unless you have a very good plan already that can be tested a few minutes later.  Obviously you will start working inward from global settings towards establishing a custom balancing of everything to make HQP4 sound and run better.  (-$ what your time is worth)

 

Next up is a cursory look at the various board and processor BIOS settings like SpeedStep, Performance mode, or anything else a new BIOS version could've changed without you knowing.  Save and reboot (this will become habitual), if no errors occur keep moving forwards.  No errors should have appeared yet from changing that type of stuff.  They might have been introduced in a new BIOS version (if loaded).  Chances are your mb has a second or third copy of BIOS you can access, but only take that bridge when you come to it.  This is a great time to start and maintain a list of values/settings/accepted groups of calculated figures you can return to and adjust off of.  Take small steps, be slow to abandon testing, and stop to fix instability before resuming afresh.   (-$ what your time is worth)

As an example let's say Ted decides to start the real work by looking at settings for RAM mounted in DIMM slots on his motherboard.  Changes here can very easily result in boot cycles.  Miska has never focused overly on RAM.  What has been mentioned can be checked off early to eliminate it as a potential cause of indecisive behaviors.  Also after being in storage, Ted said a few years, testing each stick individually (in BIOS and OS program) is also a logically sound idea.  Better to discover one needs to be replaced now than dealing with a futile attempt to chase down problems elsewhere in BIOS/software.  Effectively he's gaining a baseline to load calculations off (write them down!) and looking for odd spikes or drops.  His BIOS might do a great job already or require some work taming a design aimed towards hard core overclocking for gaming and benchmarking.  XMP doesn't always have well implemented stock settings to start with.  After finding a stable setting if RAM goes bad he now has something to check it and a new stick against/see where he went wrong/prove he didn't abuse it resulting in failure.   ($$?, possibly at least one stick of RAM)

 

If you are ready to jump into the deep end we can use your system as a reference point.  i7/i9/Extreme versions of both run even hotter when OC'd.  Fans are going to be necessary and rank in importance as follows; CPU, rear/top outtake, intake.  JTS gave a fairly good impression of the time consuming next steps.  Aside from the mass of detailed info that needs to be digested and diagnosing problems. 

 

Your 6700k would have to go all out in order to have a chance of success.  If that isn't your idea of fun we can follow wherever this conversation goes and try to kill a year or two looking at the horizon.  🕐

[rando]

Looked and the SGM Monaco is now the EVO. 

 

Given their adamant support of HQP I'm watching their next move closely.  If there was a better pre-built option for pre-EC HQP on the market I'd be surprised.

[rando]

Two or three current chips can do EC whatever at 128 and lose steam somewhere inside 256.  Well established fact with or without fans.  

 

An i7-6700k, what that entire example revolved around, is going to have to bulk up and try real hard to use an EC modulator at 128.  He noted above this wasn't a fun experiment he'd like to endeavor upon.  I might see if someone's kid has an old 6700k gaming rig I can prove for myself what is possible on it. 

 

Otherwise back to the fun.

[rando]

What you need to keep in mind is what that 8086 is under the wrapping.  A mainstream processor many others are using that Intel waved a magic wand over to bestow a slightly higher base rate into its microcode.  They aren't necessarily even "binned" chips. 

 

Any advantage over OC'ing an 8700 to the same parameters is going to be situational and subtle.  Just like the layers of humor in the highlight of its trade show debut.  Being OC'd to 5.x GHz with all the requisite smoke and mirrors only from the magician's perspective behind it.  

 

 

 

 

[rando]

2 hours ago, StreamFidelity said:

For general considerations, I reject active fans.

 

How do you feel about inactive fans?  

 

Very nice passive cooling setup.  I completely understand Miska building a no nonsense server with fans.  Doubt he or JTS are exactly doing critical listening while working.  Importantly both recognize the need to, not so much overclock, access deep BIOS settings to rectify behavior impacting their machines chosen task.  Besides, everyone knows you wait until Winter to really push on your OC.  A 45F room and 15F outside temps are advantageous to some people's idea of fun.

 

More and more I wish the thread from a few years back trying to design and have manufactured a custom mb would have been successful.  Gaming hardware is a particular bee in my bonnet.  I might have been the only person other than JTS who was excited about the Asus WS board he owns being released.

 

 

[rando]

1 hour ago, StreamFidelity said:

But after some time I come with the new EC modulators with DSD 256 in the critical temperature range. The CPU then regulates down and at least source material from 192kHz is no longer played smoothly. I can live with that

 

Live with replacing a scorched socket, bursting caps, and a host of other problems that grow exceedingly probable under these conditions.  Critical here really does mean critical, as in STOP.  

 

Resistant though you may be, the few dollars and few hours of thought towards powering/isolating something like a Noctua 150mm or Fractal Design HF-14 fan begin to sound feasible.  At least temporarily.  Especially if SQ at EC 128 bests 512 with normal modulators in your system. 

 

After pushing one end so high it might be time to pull up the bits dragging.  

 

 

[rando]

9 hours ago, StreamFidelity said:

 

What do you mean, what stress gamers expect their systems? That's why I choose a gaming board:

 

ASUS ROG Maximus XI Gene

 

That can endure a lot. Rotating fans are definitely not for me. Anyone can see that as he wants. 😉

 

Forget fans for a minute.  

 

Yes that board is designed for stressing certain elements in a reasonably secure way.  What you appear not to grasp is how far above any realistic capability you are taking environmental factors.  

 

If makes not a whit of difference how you produce a dangerous amount of heat.  OC, not OC, egregiously dangerous settings, or not providing ample thermal discharge in the name of perceived SQ.  Your consumer level gaming board is not rated to the level of a purpose built industrial design meant to be reliably placed in harsh conditions without need for human intervention.

 

I will say no more.  Your server, your right to do with it as you please. 

[rando]

@JTS I can certainly point you towards a 176/192 sample file or two if you have interest.

 

2L is a good one.

 

Believe Channel Classics site still has free high bit rate samples.  

 

Ted_b's site NativeDSD offers DSD samples in all rates and DXD.

 

 

[rando]

Intel Xe video cards may produce a CUDA competitor next year.  Who knows what sort of Intel hardware specific accelerators will actually exist or be beneficial to audio.

[rando]

6 hours ago, tedwoods said:

DSD5EC & ext2 filter: None of the calories, all of the taste!😁

 

Other than placing a limitation on the filter.  You are correct this is a very large sweet spot anything from a well sorted sixth gen i7/eighth gen i5 up should be capable of.  To me this is a suitably worthy avenue of interest; Looking through all viable ideas instead of just banging on the ceiling.

 

At some point I suspect those not prone to building castles in the sky () will discover something similar to a 65w passively cooled and well sorted box in the same 'great taste, less calories' vein.  Either this or harvesting decommissioned Xeon server chips for a dual socket machine are the only feasible alternatives to buying into high profile gaming hardware at every level.  

 

In other words, I suspect EC will reflect well on some type of workstation environment if we can discover it.  Putting aside ASDM7EC with the highest powered filters upsampling to the highest rates as an obvious target.  @ted_b hinted at an idea I also hold.  The improvements might be larger in other less recognized areas.  Areas not likely to offer the last few tenths of a percent being pulled up before the leading edge can push forwards.  

 

Lest we forget what a thorough and consumnately detailed programmer Juusi is.  I'd imagine his ongoing attempts to improve EC usability are happening across the board.  Maybe he'll decide to comment where he feels the largest, but not splashiest, refinements to his code happened/are happening as he refines EC modulators.

 

Ha, guess I'm in the mood to look through online catalogs of Q390 boards from mfgrs. far off the beaten path, again.  

[rando]

Sounds like you broke through to 512 at ASDM7EC.  Quite the accomplishment!

 

Is the Silent Wings 3 mounted as case fan(?) and as intake or exhaust?  

 

Excellent choice of fan!  For a few reasons I prefer this Fractal Designs over it as exhaust.  In real life use it moves more air at a very very similar noise level but (subjectively) less intrusive frequency/vibration.  Silent Wings blade shape is better suited for pulling or pushing through something such as a dust filter or fins on a heatsink.  

[rando]

Dang tiny screens.  Time for music not alphanumeric strings.  😵

[rando]

6 hours ago, StreamFidelity said:

Silent Wings 3 mounted as case fan and as exhaust above on the case ceiling. It's very big, but silent. 

 

Excellent, SW3 is the right choice for pulling heat off all the major components.  Not so much as a steroidal boost.  🤯

 

6 hours ago, Rune said:

That is why performance increases comes from adding more cores not clock increased and single digit IPC.

 

In any case, we are entering an age of devices that look towards great leaps in efficiency. 100 cores melded beautifully into performing the work of a thousand less well trained ones is necessary to corporate infrastructure.  Which, surprise surprise, is where almost all consumer computing trickles down from.  

[rando]

With EC bringing processors to a grinding halt.  I think we should champion arrival of genre defining filters that slice GPU into ribbons.  Maybe he'll even be be so pleased with himself he'll ask for outside suggestions naming them.  

 

Anyone's "shed" a billion dollars worth of clean room and equipment we can splice together a few silicon wafers in on weekends?  Oh, and a lounge to keep the wives entertained. 

[rando]

I agree F coded chips are currently more checking off a feature than improving real world capabilities of "i-X" consumer chips. 

 

Interesting link showing suffixes used from each generation of processor.

[rando]

All future Intel i3-i9 processors are slated to have hyperthreading.  

[rando]

But as @JTS provided ample proof of.  Tuning BIOS settings related to overclocking border on necessity.  That it means your computer will run cooler and more efficiently.  That understanding the principles inform decisions on how to refine these settings for different tasks/programs.

[rando]

On AS the term necessity equates to if this feasibly will have an effect on the order of .001% improvement it must be tried, weighed, and measured before discussing it in great detail.  

 

Lighten up.

[rando]

You have a very subtle mind I'm not making much of an impression upon. 😶

[rando]

The old "Who's on fir.. Embedded" routine never loses humor.