Are there any music recordings exceeding 75 db SNR?

[Mayfair]

37 minutes ago, Speedskater said:

The Telarc recording would not have a great SNR. Jack Renner (RIP) used a distant mic technique and they were often in a large room with lots of humans.

According to JRMC audio analysis, the 1812 Overture on the Telarc CD version has a dynamic range (R128) of 19 dB and peak levels (R128) of +0.1 dBTP; +0.1 Left; +0.1 Right.

[mansr]

15 minutes ago, Mayfair said:

According to JRMC audio analysis, the 1812 Overture on the Telarc CD version has a dynamic range (R128) of 19 dB and peak levels (R128) of +0.1 dBTP; +0.1 Left; +0.1 Right.

Different meaning of dynamic range.

[Mayfair]

1 hour ago, mansr said:

Different meaning of dynamic range.

Thanks, @mansr

[esldude]

3 hours ago, Mayfair said:

Thanks, @mansr

What I have in mind is noise floor of the recording.  The DR databases and other such metrics are looking at average vs peak levels and try to help you know if music is compressed.  I'm looking for the noise floor which would limit how far down one could hear things in terms of level.  Something could even be relatively compressed in a background of low noise. 

 

In short if we can't find anyone able to record real live music with more than 75 db total dynamic range or SNR, then 16 bit is plenty and the 24 bit part doesn't much matter to us.  And whether a given amp has 90 db of dynamic range or 110 may not matter if all your source material limits you to 75 db or less.  

[psjug]

What about your point that has been made in other threads (I think you have made this point) that we need to allow for the fact that we can hear into the noise.  So then we need more than the bit depth that corresponds to the SNR.

[esldude]

14 minutes ago, psjug said:

What about your point that has been made in other threads (I think you have made this point) that we need to allow for the fact that we can hear into the noise.  So then we need more than the bit depth that corresponds to the SNR.

Yes we can do that.  15 db or so though maybe less with actual music.  With just the right test tone even 20 db.  75 db plus 15 db gets us to 90 db.  About what 16 bit is with dither.  And were the recording better we could hear into the dither to maybe -110 db.  

 

There is just lots against us getting all this dynamic range.  You need microphones with low self noise, venues that are rather quiet, microphones also need enough sensitivity they don't require much gain, and don't overload at the higher volumes.  My estimations of these factors are that it might be possible if all the stars align perfectly to get an actual recording with 100 db dynamic range, maybe even 105 db, I'm not sure it would be theoretically possible to do better than that.  That apparently most rarely perhaps never is achieved.  

 

 

[RichB]

What about the old Sheffield Labs Track and Drum discs (one of these was also called James Newton Hoard and friends IIRC)?  Very well recorded (live to 2 track  or direct to disc) by Doug Sax. I know these are available on CD, don’t know about a hi-res re-issue). These recordings have exceptional dynamic range from what I recall. 

 

[danadam]

"Tick-Tock" from Interstellar (Illuminated Star Projection edition):

[fas42]

There is technical DR, and then there is subjective DR - the latter is what we experience with the sounds we hear continually, all around us, during each waking day. And is vastly more important. A very high percentage of playback setups substantially dilute the delivered DR in the listening - which is what most people are probably really complaining about, .

 

The benefits of achieving 'competent' sound is that subjective DR is fully restored - the impact of even simple musical lines is quite remarkable, because it mirrors how we know real sounds behave.

[esldude]

1 hour ago, danadam said:

"Tick-Tock" from Interstellar (Illuminated Star Projection edition):

That looks to be over 80 db yes.  But I bet that was a total electronic creation.  

[sandyk]

6 hours ago, RichB said:

What about the old Sheffield Labs Track and Drum discs (one of these was also called James Newton Hoard and friends IIRC)?  Very well recorded (live to 2 track  or direct to disc) by Doug Sax. I know these are available on CD, don’t know about a hi-res re-issue). These recordings have exceptional dynamic range from what I recall. 

 

 Do you mean this one ?

I have a copy if Dennis wants to check out it's DR. 

[esldude]

48 minutes ago, sandyk said:

 Do you mean this one ?

I have a copy if Dennis wants to check out it's DR. 

I can check it out Alex.  Does it say how they made this?  The original was a direct to disc I think.  So is this a digital copy of one of the LP direct to discs or something else?

 

There is one about claiming to be DXD mastering, but I wondered about what it was actually sourced from as well. 

 

EDIT: I found some info from Bruce Brown who mastered the CD, and apparently these come from tape copies made at the time of the recording.  He tells some of the things he did which include some EQ, reverb and things to fix near clipping on the drums.  I'd still check it out.  Don't know about the DXD, but suspect it too would be from tape.  Likely means tape will limit how low the noise floor could be.  The DXD was remastered by Tohru Kotetsu of JVC in Japan. 

[fas42]

32 minutes ago, esldude said:

 He tells some of the things he did which include some EQ, reverb and things to fix near clipping on the drums. 

 

Which reminds me ... the number of instances of so-called audiophile tracks I have come across with clear instances of a clipping event - attaching the word "audiophile" to something doesn't automatically make it, ummm, "error free" ...

[sandyk]

59 minutes ago, esldude said:

I can check it out Alex.  Does it say how they made this?  The original was a direct to disc I think.  So is this a digital copy of one of the LP direct to discs or something else?

Hi Dennis

 I had this originally on CD, but a friend presently has the CD. I have a saved copy of it though

I will UL it shortly .

Alex

[esldude]

1 hour ago, sandyk said:

Hi Dennis

 I had this originally on CD, but a friend presently has the CD. I have a saved copy of it though

I will UL it shortly .

Alex

Well pretty good.  Some of the hotter tracks have some clipping it looks like.  The base noise level is -72 dbFS.  It sounds obviously very clean.  Though some of it has gone thru some manipulation in re-mastering I'd say.  Having heard the LP on some good systems this one sounds more artificial and less direct.  I suspect they were trying to juice up the tape to make it sound like the direct to disk recordings.  Does have a basic sound similar to some of the Dave Grusin recordings they did going by memory.  

 

I'd not thought about it till now when I mentioned Grusin.  I have a metal cassette copy of the Grusin LP done with a Nakamichi.  I may have the same copy of the Test and Drum tracks.  I've got those tapes in storage here somewhere.  And I just need to get a belt on my Nak and I can see what it is like.  I think I had a Rega with the Rega 300 arm at the time and an Audio Technica moving coil run thru a John Curl SOTA headphone amp.  It may have been thru a SOTA Star Sapphire though I'm thinking not. 

[sandyk]

39 minutes ago, esldude said:

Having heard the LP on some good systems this one sounds more artificial and less direct. 

 

 Sometimes, long term  memory can let us down in the area of Vinyl vs. Digital !

 I also had a Nakamichi back in those days which was tweaked to further extend it's HF response using Metal tapes.

 

P.S.

 How about this one ?

[esldude]

6 minutes ago, sandyk said:

 

 Sometimes, long term  memory can let us down in the area of Vinyl vs. Digital !

 I also had a Nakamichi back in those days which was tweaked to further extend it's HF response using Metal tapes.

 

 

You'll get no argument from me on that point.  

 

I even had one of the high end Nakamichi car head units.  Something close to their Dragon in some respects.  Not only was the cassette extraordinary, the FM tuner was the finest sounding I've ever heard in a car, and mostly in the house too.  I for quite some time powered it with a regulated 12.6 volt supply and used it indoors for the FM tuner after my car was crashed into.  Some of the McIntosh tuners were better, as was a Magnum Dynalab.  Otherwise it was very, very good.  The only car tuner coming close was an early top of the line Pioneer SuperTuner and CD unit.  

[Speedskater]

18 hours ago, psjug said:

What about your point that has been made in other threads (I think you have made this point) that we need to allow for the fact that we can hear into the noise.  So then we need more than the bit depth that corresponds to the SNR.

With test tones, they might be heard into the background noise. But with music, it's a different ballgame. There are a couple of test tracks that demonstrate how difficult it is to hear minus 60dB sounds.

[psjug]

2 hours ago, Speedskater said:

With test tones, they might be heard into the background noise. But with music, it's a different ballgame. There are a couple of test tracks that demonstrate how difficult it is to hear minus 60dB sounds.

I imagine that with music it is hard to pin down, depending on the nature of the noise and the signal.  But regardless, I think the case is pretty strong that 16 bits is enough.

[Speedskater]

27 minutes ago, psjug said:

I imagine that with music it is hard to pin down, depending on the nature of the noise and the signal.  But regardless, I think the case is pretty strong that 16 bits is enough.

More than enough, a well done recording only needs 14 bits. But that all OBE (Overtaken By Events). Now that large memory is inexpensive and processing speed is no longer a problem, we should stop worrying about bits.

[RichB]

21 hours ago, sandyk said:

 Do you mean this one ?

I have a copy if Dennis wants to check out it's DR. 

 

 

Yes - that is one of them... but there was also the Track and Drum disc... apparently there are XRCD and DXD reissues of this, bit I have the LPs

and a old CD of it

 

[sandyk]

I just noticed this in UseNet in .flac format
The Sheffield Lab Drum and Track Disc (XRCD24)

[John Dyson]

Deleted erroneous post -- sorry.

[esldude]

On 8/8/2019 at 2:47 AM, sandyk said:

 

 Sometimes, long term  memory can let us down in the area of Vinyl vs. Digital !

 I also had a Nakamichi back in those days which was tweaked to further extend it's HF response using Metal tapes.

 

P.S.

 How about this one ?

These range from about -67 dbFS to -75 db.  On these low level 60 hz hum is the loudest thing along with the 3rd and 5th harmonic of 60 hz.  If not for that they would have been a few db quieter.  Nice sounding tracks in any case.