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Can you point to any music recordings with more than 75 db SNR?  Excepting purely electronic recordings are there any with this much or more signal to noise?


To paraphrase Rick James, "sighted listening is a helluva drug".

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Not likely with acoustic instruments. Some time ago Arny K.(RIP) went looking and never found any.

But with some computer based instruments (not  samplers) it should be easy.

Or you could do it with that computer controlled Bosendorfer piano. No humans in the room and the lights & HVAC turned off.

 

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IME  75dB down is right about where anomalies in the sound that are almost impossible to measure, but which cause all the issues with subjective SQ "not being quite good enough" occur - forget about 120dB stuff, this is fantasy land as far as being a reason to get excited about causes; it's noise and distortion that occurs, for various subtle reasons, 50dB or so stronger than that which are the real problems.


Frank

 

http://artofaudioconjuring.blogspot.com/

 

 

Ahhh, Mankind ... Porsche intellect, Trabant emotions ...

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cannon fire, baby - that's your DR right there

 

 

some friends just went to an 1812 where they used recordings instead of "the real thing" (TM) and they were bummed out


"The overwhelming majority [of audiophiles] have very little knowledge, if any, about the most basic principles and operating characteristics of audio equipment. They often base their purchasing decisions on hearsay, and the preaching of media sages. Unfortunately, because of commercial considerations, much information is rooted in increasing revenue, not in assisting the audiophile. It seems as if the only requirements for becoming an "authority" in the world of audio is a keyboard."

-- Bruce Rozenblit of Transcendent Sound

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Dennis

 IIRC, you have asked this question before, and we ended up discussing the actual noise floors of various recording studios.

 Alex


"If you can't hear the difference between an original CD and a copy of your CD,

you might as well give up your career as a tester. The difference between a reconstituted FLAC and full size WAV is much less than that, but it does exist. - Cookie Marenco"

 

PROFILE UPDATED 18-06-2019

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2 hours ago, Ralf11 said:

cannon fire, baby - that's your DR right there

 

 

some friends just went to an 1812 where they used recordings instead of "the real thing" (TM) and they were bummed out

I've been to those 4th of July performances where they do the 1812 overture with real cannons.  Definitely high dynamic range.  But are there any recordings of that with such dynamic range.  Most recordings will compress that.  At the live performances with cannon, at the distance I was I don't think SNR was more than 100 db.  


To paraphrase Rick James, "sighted listening is a helluva drug".

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Yes.  It will be compressed, but that is where to look for max DR.


"The overwhelming majority [of audiophiles] have very little knowledge, if any, about the most basic principles and operating characteristics of audio equipment. They often base their purchasing decisions on hearsay, and the preaching of media sages. Unfortunately, because of commercial considerations, much information is rooted in increasing revenue, not in assisting the audiophile. It seems as if the only requirements for becoming an "authority" in the world of audio is a keyboard."

-- Bruce Rozenblit of Transcendent Sound

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1 hour ago, sandyk said:

Dennis

 IIRC, you have asked this question before, and we ended up discussing the actual noise floors of various recording studios.

 Alex

Well perhaps I have.  And a starting point would be recording studios.  I probably brought up the scoring stage at Skywalker Ranch as one of the quieter such places.  But that is a starting point.  You have microphone self noise, and gain applied to them (and to the ambient noise of the location), and you don't even get the full SNR of the studio into your recordings.  

 

Considering all the talk about 24 bit, and now even 32 bit, we don't have recordings surpassing 12 bit that I can find.  


To paraphrase Rick James, "sighted listening is a helluva drug".

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1 minute ago, Ralf11 said:

Yes.  It will be compressed, but that is where to look for max DR.

Anyone have a copy of the Telarc 1812?  


To paraphrase Rick James, "sighted listening is a helluva drug".

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15 minutes ago, esldude said:

Anyone have a copy of the Telarc 1812?  

 

If memory serves, we had that on vinyl when I was a kid.

 

Probably for that reason.  I think it has 12 Hz drums or something too.


--

Do facts matter?

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3 minutes ago, sandyk said:

 

Do you require a particular track or tracks from it ?

Telarc 1812.jpg

The ones with the cannons.  Also need some where you can get a sense of the ambient noise floor without music playing which not having a copy I of course don't know.  BTW is this the newer version that had a choir and some new cannons added or the original one?

 

I know it was included on one of the Telarc Sampler CD's too.  


To paraphrase Rick James, "sighted listening is a helluva drug".

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Give me a little while for my slow Internet to UL it , for Research purposes only, of course..


"If you can't hear the difference between an original CD and a copy of your CD,

you might as well give up your career as a tester. The difference between a reconstituted FLAC and full size WAV is much less than that, but it does exist. - Cookie Marenco"

 

PROFILE UPDATED 18-06-2019

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I guess you have not heard of the dynamic range database?

http://dr.loudness-war.info/album/list/dr/desc

 

You will have to do some extrapolation to get what you want, but it should point point you in the right direction.   I have a couple of Denon demo discs and they are very dynamic, more so than a telarc 1812 recording i have.

 

You might also check out.  Well. It is a dead website.

http://www.pleasurizemusic.com/

 

The methodology used in both places is I believe the difference between the peak and RMS levels, which was called the "crest factor" this is where you will have to do some extrapolation.

 

You might check this out too

https://www.stereophile.com/asweseeit/as_we_see_it_the_spaces_between_the_notes/index.html


"Let's pick a tune and get out of this mess"  - Earl Scruggs

"There are simply two kinds of music, good music and the other kind ... " - Duke Ellington

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Dennis

Please check your emails

Alex

 


"If you can't hear the difference between an original CD and a copy of your CD,

you might as well give up your career as a tester. The difference between a reconstituted FLAC and full size WAV is much less than that, but it does exist. - Cookie Marenco"

 

PROFILE UPDATED 18-06-2019

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23 minutes ago, Soothsayerman said:

I guess you have not heard of the dynamic range database?

http://dr.loudness-war.info/album/list/dr/desc

 Dennis likes to do his own  research.¬¬

 

 P.S.

Other than not being able to hear the differences between USB 2.0 cables he is a pretty smart cookie. :D

Edited by sandyk

"If you can't hear the difference between an original CD and a copy of your CD,

you might as well give up your career as a tester. The difference between a reconstituted FLAC and full size WAV is much less than that, but it does exist. - Cookie Marenco"

 

PROFILE UPDATED 18-06-2019

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Okay cannon shots in the Telarc:

1976351027_Telarc1812cannonshots.thumb.png.255f3ecdda9d2a77576551fdfd2d680b.png

 

Obviously we have some clipping going on here.  I've read the LP of this had what amounted to square waves.  Looks like the part clipping is in the 40 to 50 hz range.  This is from CD. 

 

Looking at quiet portions we have about -46 db in the left channel and 50 db in the right.  

 

Most recordings are going to peak at -1 db or less so it is really the other end, the quiet end where we'll need to find something unusually quiet.  Requires quiet venues, quiet microphones, quiet preamps, and limited gain applied.  

 

This shows much the same info. 

http://hifi-writer.com/wpblog/?p=2504


To paraphrase Rick James, "sighted listening is a helluva drug".

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I never cared for Telarc.  Every recording I heard raved about was surpassed in musical terms (interpretation/performance) by something else for my tastes, so I never kept any of the Telarcs.  Fortunately, back in those days, you could get most of your money back selling a CD in Berkeley (Amoeba Records, I think?)  My favorite recording of the 1812 Overture has real artillery, the city's church bells, and a choir.  It's thrilling, and has very quiet passages as well, but I doubt that the dynamic range exceeds the best recordings from BIS, like the Ravel disc we've discussed.  I don't know about the artillery, whether it's compressed by studio artifice or by old-fashioned distance lol.  It's on DG, this one with Neeme Järvi conducting:

 

918363843_Jarvi1812a.thumb.jpg.ccd61ee305e0425919e67177db4bb38b.jpg

1490263720_Jarvi1812b.thumb.jpg.ff11083a3982608bb45729f3ee812296.jpg

 


请教别人一次是5分钟的傻子,从不请教别人是一辈子的傻子

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16 minutes ago, Hugo9000 said:

I never cared for Telarc.  Every recording I heard raved about was surpassed in musical terms (interpretation/performance) by something else for my tastes, so I never kept any of the Telarcs.  Fortunately, back in those days, you could get most of your money back selling a CD in Berkeley (Amoeba Records, I think?)  My favorite recording of the 1812 Overture has real artillery, the city's church bells, and a choir.  It's thrilling, and has very quiet passages as well, but I doubt that the dynamic range exceeds the best recordings from BIS, like the Ravel disc we've discussed.  I don't know about the artillery, whether it's compressed by studio artifice or by old-fashioned distance lol.  It's on DG, this one with Neeme Järvi conducting:

 

918363843_Jarvi1812a.thumb.jpg.ccd61ee305e0425919e67177db4bb38b.jpg

1490263720_Jarvi1812b.thumb.jpg.ff11083a3982608bb45729f3ee812296.jpg

 

I must admit, all the way back into the days I spun LPs I hated DG.  They used like at least one microphone per instrument and maybe some more it seemed.  They might have a good FR balance, but there was nothing other than a cacophony of sound with no depth or imaging.  So I don't think I have a single DG CD and of course maybe things have changed.  I'll see if Amazon music has it, and I can stream it. 


To paraphrase Rick James, "sighted listening is a helluva drug".

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20 minutes ago, esldude said:

I must admit, all the way back into the days I spun LPs I hated DG.  They used like at least one microphone per instrument and maybe some more it seemed.  They might have a good FR balance, but there was nothing other than a cacophony of sound with no depth or imaging.  So I don't think I have a single DG CD and of course maybe things have changed.  I'll see if Amazon music has it, and I can stream it. 

I go by performance and favorite artists first, so sometimes I have to overlook annoying aspects in the recording.  Most of my DG recordings feature Gil Shaham or Herbert von Karajan.  Regarding recordings made in the past 20 years or so, I'd say the majority of those I really enjoy are from BIS, where they very often have superb performances as well as wonderful sonics.

 

Oh, I forgot my Trevor Pinnock/The English Concert CDs, those are all under the DG umbrella as well, their Archiv label.


请教别人一次是5分钟的傻子,从不请教别人是一辈子的傻子

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8 hours ago, esldude said:

Anyone have a copy of the Telarc 1812?  

I have it in vinyl. Most cartridges could not track the cannon fire sequence. Telarc included a warning regarding potential damage to speakers if playing back at high volume. Fun demo record.

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8 hours ago, Soothsayerman said:

I guess you have not heard of the dynamic range database?

http://dr.loudness-war.info/album/list/dr/desc

 

You will have to do some extrapolation to get what you want, but it should point point you in the right direction.   I have a couple of Denon demo discs and they are very dynamic, more so than a telarc 1812 recording i have.

 

You might also check out.  Well. It is a dead website.

http://www.pleasurizemusic.com/

 

The methodology used in both places is I believe the difference between the peak and RMS levels, which was called the "crest factor" this is where you will have to do some extrapolation.

 

You might check this out too

https://www.stereophile.com/asweseeit/as_we_see_it_the_spaces_between_the_notes/index.html

I am unknowing about the specific SW used to measure the dynamic range in the database.   I'd like to know, since I do have some SW that JUST MIGHT improve some of the numbers (a little bit) from much CD based material.  (DolbyA decoding doesn't usually make a huge difference on the high side because it is active mostly at the -20dB level or lower, so all it does is to mitigate noise on most measures.)  Some material IS at -20dB, but not so often on POP (believe it or not, good copies of ABBA DO have some material in the -20dB range.)

 

John

 

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36 minutes ago, phosphorein said:

I have it in vinyl. Most cartridges could not track the cannon fire sequence. Telarc included a warning regarding potential damage to speakers if playing back at high volume. Fun demo record.

The Telarc cannons are supposedly used on this Mariinsky recording as well: https://www.qobuz.com/gb-en/album/tchaikovsky-1812-overture-moscow-cantata-marche-slave-valery-gergiev-and-mariinsky-orchestra/peflu59aivy7a

I have to say they are rather underwhelming. No complaints about the music, though.

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