esldude Posted August 6, 2019 Share Posted August 6, 2019 Can you point to any music recordings with more than 75 db SNR? Excepting purely electronic recordings are there any with this much or more signal to noise? And always keep in mind: Cognitive biases, like seeing optical illusions are a sign of a normally functioning brain. We all have them, it’s nothing to be ashamed about, but it is something that affects our objective evaluation of reality. Link to comment
Speedskater Posted August 6, 2019 Share Posted August 6, 2019 Not likely with acoustic instruments. Some time ago Arny K.(RIP) went looking and never found any. But with some computer based instruments (not samplers) it should be easy. Or you could do it with that computer controlled Bosendorfer piano. No humans in the room and the lights & HVAC turned off. Link to comment
fas42 Posted August 7, 2019 Share Posted August 7, 2019 IME 75dB down is right about where anomalies in the sound that are almost impossible to measure, but which cause all the issues with subjective SQ "not being quite good enough" occur - forget about 120dB stuff, this is fantasy land as far as being a reason to get excited about causes; it's noise and distortion that occurs, for various subtle reasons, 50dB or so stronger than that which are the real problems. esldude 1 Link to comment
Ralf11 Posted August 7, 2019 Share Posted August 7, 2019 cannon fire, baby - that's your DR right there some friends just went to an 1812 where they used recordings instead of "the real thing" (TM) and they were bummed out Link to comment
sandyk Posted August 7, 2019 Share Posted August 7, 2019 Dennis IIRC, you have asked this question before, and we ended up discussing the actual noise floors of various recording studios. Alex How a Digital Audio file sounds, or a Digital Video file looks, is governed to a large extent by the Power Supply area. All that Identical Checksums gives is the possibility of REGENERATING the file to close to that of the original file. PROFILE UPDATED 13-11-2020 Link to comment
esldude Posted August 7, 2019 Author Share Posted August 7, 2019 2 hours ago, Ralf11 said: cannon fire, baby - that's your DR right there some friends just went to an 1812 where they used recordings instead of "the real thing" (TM) and they were bummed out I've been to those 4th of July performances where they do the 1812 overture with real cannons. Definitely high dynamic range. But are there any recordings of that with such dynamic range. Most recordings will compress that. At the live performances with cannon, at the distance I was I don't think SNR was more than 100 db. And always keep in mind: Cognitive biases, like seeing optical illusions are a sign of a normally functioning brain. We all have them, it’s nothing to be ashamed about, but it is something that affects our objective evaluation of reality. Link to comment
Ralf11 Posted August 7, 2019 Share Posted August 7, 2019 Yes. It will be compressed, but that is where to look for max DR. Link to comment
esldude Posted August 7, 2019 Author Share Posted August 7, 2019 1 hour ago, sandyk said: Dennis IIRC, you have asked this question before, and we ended up discussing the actual noise floors of various recording studios. Alex Well perhaps I have. And a starting point would be recording studios. I probably brought up the scoring stage at Skywalker Ranch as one of the quieter such places. But that is a starting point. You have microphone self noise, and gain applied to them (and to the ambient noise of the location), and you don't even get the full SNR of the studio into your recordings. Considering all the talk about 24 bit, and now even 32 bit, we don't have recordings surpassing 12 bit that I can find. And always keep in mind: Cognitive biases, like seeing optical illusions are a sign of a normally functioning brain. We all have them, it’s nothing to be ashamed about, but it is something that affects our objective evaluation of reality. Link to comment
esldude Posted August 7, 2019 Author Share Posted August 7, 2019 1 minute ago, Ralf11 said: Yes. It will be compressed, but that is where to look for max DR. Anyone have a copy of the Telarc 1812? And always keep in mind: Cognitive biases, like seeing optical illusions are a sign of a normally functioning brain. We all have them, it’s nothing to be ashamed about, but it is something that affects our objective evaluation of reality. Link to comment
wgscott Posted August 7, 2019 Share Posted August 7, 2019 15 minutes ago, esldude said: Anyone have a copy of the Telarc 1812? If memory serves, we had that on vinyl when I was a kid. Probably for that reason. I think it has 12 Hz drums or something too. Link to comment
Popular Post sandyk Posted August 7, 2019 Popular Post Share Posted August 7, 2019 20 minutes ago, esldude said: Anyone have a copy of the Telarc 1812? 20 minutes ago, esldude said: Anyone have a copy of the Telarc 1812? Do you require a particular track or tracks from it ? esldude and wgscott 2 How a Digital Audio file sounds, or a Digital Video file looks, is governed to a large extent by the Power Supply area. All that Identical Checksums gives is the possibility of REGENERATING the file to close to that of the original file. PROFILE UPDATED 13-11-2020 Link to comment
esldude Posted August 7, 2019 Author Share Posted August 7, 2019 3 minutes ago, sandyk said: Do you require a particular track or tracks from it ? The ones with the cannons. Also need some where you can get a sense of the ambient noise floor without music playing which not having a copy I of course don't know. BTW is this the newer version that had a choir and some new cannons added or the original one? I know it was included on one of the Telarc Sampler CD's too. And always keep in mind: Cognitive biases, like seeing optical illusions are a sign of a normally functioning brain. We all have them, it’s nothing to be ashamed about, but it is something that affects our objective evaluation of reality. Link to comment
sandyk Posted August 7, 2019 Share Posted August 7, 2019 Give me a little while for my slow Internet to UL it , for Research purposes only, of course.. How a Digital Audio file sounds, or a Digital Video file looks, is governed to a large extent by the Power Supply area. All that Identical Checksums gives is the possibility of REGENERATING the file to close to that of the original file. PROFILE UPDATED 13-11-2020 Link to comment
Soothsayerman Posted August 7, 2019 Share Posted August 7, 2019 I guess you have not heard of the dynamic range database? http://dr.loudness-war.info/album/list/dr/desc You will have to do some extrapolation to get what you want, but it should point point you in the right direction. I have a couple of Denon demo discs and they are very dynamic, more so than a telarc 1812 recording i have. You might also check out. Well. It is a dead website. http://www.pleasurizemusic.com/ The methodology used in both places is I believe the difference between the peak and RMS levels, which was called the "crest factor" this is where you will have to do some extrapolation. You might check this out too https://www.stereophile.com/asweseeit/as_we_see_it_the_spaces_between_the_notes/index.html "Let's pick a tune and get out of this mess" - Earl Scruggs "There are simply two kinds of music, good music and the other kind ... " - Duke Ellington Link to comment
sandyk Posted August 7, 2019 Share Posted August 7, 2019 Dennis Please check your emails Alex esldude 1 How a Digital Audio file sounds, or a Digital Video file looks, is governed to a large extent by the Power Supply area. All that Identical Checksums gives is the possibility of REGENERATING the file to close to that of the original file. PROFILE UPDATED 13-11-2020 Link to comment
sandyk Posted August 7, 2019 Share Posted August 7, 2019 23 minutes ago, Soothsayerman said: I guess you have not heard of the dynamic range database? http://dr.loudness-war.info/album/list/dr/desc Dennis likes to do his own research. P.S. Other than not being able to hear the differences between USB 2.0 cables he is a pretty smart cookie. Soothsayerman 1 How a Digital Audio file sounds, or a Digital Video file looks, is governed to a large extent by the Power Supply area. All that Identical Checksums gives is the possibility of REGENERATING the file to close to that of the original file. PROFILE UPDATED 13-11-2020 Link to comment
Popular Post esldude Posted August 7, 2019 Author Popular Post Share Posted August 7, 2019 54 minutes ago, Soothsayerman said: I guess you have not heard of the dynamic range database? http://dr.loudness-war.info/album/list/dr/desc You will have to do some extrapolation to get what you want, but it should point point you in the right direction. I have a couple of Denon demo discs and they are very dynamic, more so than a telarc 1812 recording i have. You might also check out. Well. It is a dead website. http://www.pleasurizemusic.com/ The methodology used in both places is I believe the difference between the peak and RMS levels, which was called the "crest factor" this is where you will have to do some extrapolation. You might check this out too https://www.stereophile.com/asweseeit/as_we_see_it_the_spaces_between_the_notes/index.html That isn't quite what I am looking for in this case. DR is somewhat mis-named. It does as you say describe crest to average or RMS levels. It helps ferret out recordings that are overly compressed. I'm more interested in this case with the base level noise floor of recordings in which the music is being recorded. In what total dynamic range or signal to noise envelopes we have to work with if music isn't compressed. Soothsayerman and Hugo9000 1 1 And always keep in mind: Cognitive biases, like seeing optical illusions are a sign of a normally functioning brain. We all have them, it’s nothing to be ashamed about, but it is something that affects our objective evaluation of reality. Link to comment
esldude Posted August 7, 2019 Author Share Posted August 7, 2019 Okay cannon shots in the Telarc: Obviously we have some clipping going on here. I've read the LP of this had what amounted to square waves. Looks like the part clipping is in the 40 to 50 hz range. This is from CD. Looking at quiet portions we have about -46 db in the left channel and 50 db in the right. Most recordings are going to peak at -1 db or less so it is really the other end, the quiet end where we'll need to find something unusually quiet. Requires quiet venues, quiet microphones, quiet preamps, and limited gain applied. This shows much the same info. http://hifi-writer.com/wpblog/?p=2504 And always keep in mind: Cognitive biases, like seeing optical illusions are a sign of a normally functioning brain. We all have them, it’s nothing to be ashamed about, but it is something that affects our objective evaluation of reality. Link to comment
Hugo9000 Posted August 7, 2019 Share Posted August 7, 2019 I never cared for Telarc. Every recording I heard raved about was surpassed in musical terms (interpretation/performance) by something else for my tastes, so I never kept any of the Telarcs. Fortunately, back in those days, you could get most of your money back selling a CD in Berkeley (Amoeba Records, I think?) My favorite recording of the 1812 Overture has real artillery, the city's church bells, and a choir. It's thrilling, and has very quiet passages as well, but I doubt that the dynamic range exceeds the best recordings from BIS, like the Ravel disc we've discussed. I don't know about the artillery, whether it's compressed by studio artifice or by old-fashioned distance lol. It's on DG, this one with Neeme Järvi conducting: 请教别人一次是5分钟的傻子,从不请教别人是一辈子的傻子 Link to comment
esldude Posted August 7, 2019 Author Share Posted August 7, 2019 16 minutes ago, Hugo9000 said: I never cared for Telarc. Every recording I heard raved about was surpassed in musical terms (interpretation/performance) by something else for my tastes, so I never kept any of the Telarcs. Fortunately, back in those days, you could get most of your money back selling a CD in Berkeley (Amoeba Records, I think?) My favorite recording of the 1812 Overture has real artillery, the city's church bells, and a choir. It's thrilling, and has very quiet passages as well, but I doubt that the dynamic range exceeds the best recordings from BIS, like the Ravel disc we've discussed. I don't know about the artillery, whether it's compressed by studio artifice or by old-fashioned distance lol. It's on DG, this one with Neeme Järvi conducting: I must admit, all the way back into the days I spun LPs I hated DG. They used like at least one microphone per instrument and maybe some more it seemed. They might have a good FR balance, but there was nothing other than a cacophony of sound with no depth or imaging. So I don't think I have a single DG CD and of course maybe things have changed. I'll see if Amazon music has it, and I can stream it. And always keep in mind: Cognitive biases, like seeing optical illusions are a sign of a normally functioning brain. We all have them, it’s nothing to be ashamed about, but it is something that affects our objective evaluation of reality. Link to comment
Hugo9000 Posted August 7, 2019 Share Posted August 7, 2019 20 minutes ago, esldude said: I must admit, all the way back into the days I spun LPs I hated DG. They used like at least one microphone per instrument and maybe some more it seemed. They might have a good FR balance, but there was nothing other than a cacophony of sound with no depth or imaging. So I don't think I have a single DG CD and of course maybe things have changed. I'll see if Amazon music has it, and I can stream it. I go by performance and favorite artists first, so sometimes I have to overlook annoying aspects in the recording. Most of my DG recordings feature Gil Shaham or Herbert von Karajan. Regarding recordings made in the past 20 years or so, I'd say the majority of those I really enjoy are from BIS, where they very often have superb performances as well as wonderful sonics. Oh, I forgot my Trevor Pinnock/The English Concert CDs, those are all under the DG umbrella as well, their Archiv label. 请教别人一次是5分钟的傻子,从不请教别人是一辈子的傻子 Link to comment
phosphorein Posted August 7, 2019 Share Posted August 7, 2019 8 hours ago, esldude said: Anyone have a copy of the Telarc 1812? I have it in vinyl. Most cartridges could not track the cannon fire sequence. Telarc included a warning regarding potential damage to speakers if playing back at high volume. Fun demo record. Link to comment
Speedskater Posted August 7, 2019 Share Posted August 7, 2019 The Telarc recording would not have a great SNR. Jack Renner (RIP) used a distant mic technique and they were often in a large room with lots of humans. Link to comment
John Dyson Posted August 7, 2019 Share Posted August 7, 2019 8 hours ago, Soothsayerman said: I guess you have not heard of the dynamic range database? http://dr.loudness-war.info/album/list/dr/desc You will have to do some extrapolation to get what you want, but it should point point you in the right direction. I have a couple of Denon demo discs and they are very dynamic, more so than a telarc 1812 recording i have. You might also check out. Well. It is a dead website. http://www.pleasurizemusic.com/ The methodology used in both places is I believe the difference between the peak and RMS levels, which was called the "crest factor" this is where you will have to do some extrapolation. You might check this out too https://www.stereophile.com/asweseeit/as_we_see_it_the_spaces_between_the_notes/index.html I am unknowing about the specific SW used to measure the dynamic range in the database. I'd like to know, since I do have some SW that JUST MIGHT improve some of the numbers (a little bit) from much CD based material. (DolbyA decoding doesn't usually make a huge difference on the high side because it is active mostly at the -20dB level or lower, so all it does is to mitigate noise on most measures.) Some material IS at -20dB, but not so often on POP (believe it or not, good copies of ABBA DO have some material in the -20dB range.) John Link to comment
mansr Posted August 7, 2019 Share Posted August 7, 2019 36 minutes ago, phosphorein said: I have it in vinyl. Most cartridges could not track the cannon fire sequence. Telarc included a warning regarding potential damage to speakers if playing back at high volume. Fun demo record. The Telarc cannons are supposedly used on this Mariinsky recording as well: https://www.qobuz.com/gb-en/album/tchaikovsky-1812-overture-moscow-cantata-marche-slave-valery-gergiev-and-mariinsky-orchestra/peflu59aivy7a I have to say they are rather underwhelming. No complaints about the music, though. Link to comment
Recommended Posts
Create an account or sign in to comment
You need to be a member in order to leave a comment
Create an account
Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!
Register a new accountSign in
Already have an account? Sign in here.
Sign In Now