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Bits is bits?


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12 minutes ago, pkane2001 said:

I have a number of XMOS and Amanero USB receiver-based devices. None of them suffer from USB noise, except for the old Emotiva XDA-2, which appears to be using a Cmedia CM6631 receiver.

 

I have too, and I have many that suffer from USB noise. Although for many that is baked-in feature of the USB interface instead of delivery from the cable...

 

For example is is quite common to see 8 kHz USB packet ticking (125 µs packet interval of UAC2) in the DAC output...

Signalyst - Developer of HQPlayer

Pulse & Fidelity - Software Defined Amplifiers

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2 minutes ago, Miska said:

Can you not understand that cables can have perfect data delivery, and at the same time deliver electrical noise that bypasses the data path. You know, this is also why many cables have ferrite beads...

 

 

Oh My Goodness !!!!!!!!!!

 

Forget the damn cables

 

Once more   Did the CRC check ?   No ?    Send me the data again

 

Can you not understand that using the protocols that are used what is sent is received

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And plenty of posts from people firing shots from both sides of the barricades ...

 

The technicals believe everything is under control because they've read the textbooks, and their measurements look good - the other lot know this is BS, because they can hear the difference when things that "shouldn't matter" are changed.

 

I happen to sit on the fence ... I know, and at times am extremely frustrated, when things matter that shouldn't - but I don't go away and stick my head in the sand, spouting mantras from the 'experts'. Translated, that means that I actually investigate what's going on, rather than pontificating - and lo and behold ... it turns out that there are subtleties in the matter which are mostly ignored ... compensate for these, and one gains a significant step up in subjective SQ. And I reckon that's a pretty smart use of one's time, just between you and me ... ^_^.

 

 

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2 minutes ago, pkane2001 said:

Right. That’s why it’s important to check measurements before buying a DAC. Proper receiver implementation will make specialty USB cables and regen devices unnecessary.

 

You cannot fix that part with such devices either.

 

But Chord Mojo is one good example of a DAC that doesn't have that particular problem, but is extremely sensitive to noises coming from the USB cable...

 

Signalyst - Developer of HQPlayer

Pulse & Fidelity - Software Defined Amplifiers

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23 minutes ago, DonaldT2109 said:

 

Or better grammer and punctuation   😉

 

Can you answer my question  please    ?

 

There are all of these 'experts' on here and not one of them can answer my simple question about the cable ?

 

 

 

 

Miska is shooting very straight ... he has to deal with the realities of getting the best results from the hardware, so listen to what he's saying.

 

One can look at the process of passing information around circuitry at different levels of detail - talking about protocols is fairly high level, abstract; talking about what electrons are actually doing is extremely low level, mind numbingly tedious . Both are describing what happens, both are important ... but more abstract versions of the 'truth' will never mention the more subtle realities of what happens in finely detailed viewpoints of "what's going on" - unfortunately, in audio, the latter matter if one wants best sound.

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5 minutes ago, DonaldT2109 said:

 

 

No Ricky I am not.

 

I asked a very simple question yet nobody seems to able to answer it

Well I must say you are pushing buttons here. Maybe you’ll get this usb conundrum solved by morning 😀.

 

Although your method is quite nauseating 

 

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17 minutes ago, RickyV said:

Well I must say you are pushing buttons here. Maybe you’ll get this usb conundrum solved by morning 😀.

 

Although your method is quite nauseating 

 

 

How the hell is it nauseating ?????   What method ? How many methods are there of asking a question ?

 

I asked an important question a while ago and nobody will answer it

 

What is the problem other than it will prove that A USB cable can not possibly affect the audio.

 

I really don't understand how people still beleve these crooks, even after being caught red handed cheating at an A/B test,  when they say thar their ultra-expensive cables can improve the audio

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4 minutes ago, DonaldT2109 said:

 

 

How the hell is it nauseating ?????   What method ? How many methods are there of asking a question ?

 

I asked an important question a while ago and nobody will answer it

 

What is the problem other than it will prove that A USB cable can not possibly affect the audio.

 

I really don't understand how people still beleve these crooks, even after being caught red handed cheating at an A/B test,  when they say thar their ultra-expensive cables can improve the audio

Ultra expensive USB cables aren't necessary nor even likely helpful even in the worst cases.  However, with poor design it is possible for the USB cable to alter the analog output.  So yes it is possible.  Expensive cables aren't the answer, and with most gear doesn't happen.  But it is possible. 

 

Look here for measured proof of that. 

https://www.audiosciencereview.com/forum/index.php?threads/do-usb-audio-cables-make-a-difference.1887/

 

And always keep in mind: Cognitive biases, like seeing optical illusions are a sign of a normally functioning brain. We all have them, it’s nothing to be ashamed about, but it is something that affects our objective evaluation of reality. 

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Any electrical connection between the source and the DAC is going to pass some interference that is going to disrupt the DAC's precision. The only way out of this is using an optical connection, which offers perfect galvanic isolation. Current optical connections (Toslink through glass or fiber cables) have some drawbacks, as the signal is degraded as it goes through the cable. 

 

Though they may not always admit it, most DAC manufacturers today recognize the issues with digital audio. 

 

I have been following the work of the Brown brothers (ECDesigns) for some time, and they have done extensive research on this topic. They have developped a low interference source, playing WAV files stored on USB keys, with a very low power consumption processor, battery power supply. Their first model worked with an optical interlink to the DAC, but they have now developped what they call an "ElectroTOS" interlink, which basically solves the problem with signal degradation in the cable while offering complete galvanic isolation. I have tested this with a Denafrips Terminator DAC, and the results are spectacular - unlike anything I had heard before. These tests were conducted with several other experienced audiophiles, and everyone came to the same conclusion. What can be obtained from a "low interference" source has to be heard to be "believed" (and preferably with a high quality DAC and system...).

 

So concerning "bits are bits", I think the reason why there is still so much debate about this is because there are simply very few solutions today that can let us "experience" a "good signal", and there are many solutions offered which probably have very limited effects, or only address part of the problem (i.e. witness everything being developped around network filters/reclockers). These solutions may not even produce the same effect in two different systems.

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4 hours ago, Miska said:

...

Of course data transmission is error-free. But this is not the issue. It hugely matters if you use UTP or STP cable. Because STP cable connects grounds of two devices, potentially allowing dirty ground currents to flow, while UTP cable doesn't and the signals are galvanically isolated using transformers (if you don't use PoE). Transformer isolation exists there for a reason! STP cable can be only used if you have a very carefully designed grounding layout on your entire system (and not for long runs for various reasons).

...

 

Here it is again...

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1 hour ago, DonaldT2109 said:

 

I can not believe that nobody can answer my basic question

 

Please       Can somebody take a stab,      It is very important to the whole discussion

 You are an E.E. This is an Audiophile forum, not a sub branch of Hydrogen Audio.

Do NOT expect non technically qualified members to provide either measurements or technical explanations .

That is the job of the suitably qualified members AFTER they have the reports verified.

You should be able to work it out for yourself if you are half as smart as you claim to be , and are able to put aside your prejudices and have a listen to somebody's system where they are readily able to demonstrate these differences.

 There are numerous members capable of demonstrating these " impossible" things through their own systems.

 It would help greatly, if you were able to either hear these differences for yourself, or at least have the person demonstrating these differences do so under NON SIGHTED conditions. to demonstrate that they are real.

 If I wasn't on the other side of the Equator I would be more than happy to do this.

 

How a Digital Audio file sounds, or a Digital Video file looks, is governed to a large extent by the Power Supply area. All that Identical Checksums gives is the possibility of REGENERATING the file to close to that of the original file.

PROFILE UPDATED 13-11-2020

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11 minutes ago, DonaldT2109 said:

So you honestly believe that a USB cable can give the digitised data  "extreme smoothness in the midrange and high end that at the same time, is detailed and very revealing"   

 Not quite what you are saying, but you would do well to listen to Dennis, who is actually quite well informed in most areas such as this,  but is every bit as sceptical as you are.

If you had been here a little longer you would also  realise that Dennis is also on your side of the fence with most of this, and is well  respected by most of the technically qualified  members too.

 I don't agree with Dennis in some areas, but I do respect his technical knowledge and abilities.

 

 

How a Digital Audio file sounds, or a Digital Video file looks, is governed to a large extent by the Power Supply area. All that Identical Checksums gives is the possibility of REGENERATING the file to close to that of the original file.

PROFILE UPDATED 13-11-2020

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3 minutes ago, sandyk said:

You are an E.E. This is an Audiophile forum, not a sub branch of Hydrogen Audio.

 

I can not believe how the 'golden eared' ones will do everything they can to use psuedo-science and techno-babble and pages of useless diagrams to make a point and then say that a very very simple question is out of their scope

 

9 minutes ago, sandyk said:

You should be able to work it out for yourself if you are half as smart as you claim to be , and are able to put aside your prejudices and have a listen to somebody's system where they are readily able to demonstrate these differences.

 

OK so here goes.

 

Here is the question again and l have answered it myself with the two possible answers

 

The Question again
I want to play my 16-bit/44.1kHz FLAC of 'Take 5'
I play to USB on my Linux system bypassing any EQ or otherwise. Bits from file sent to USB 'as is'

If I use the Audioquest Diamond will I acheive bit for bit transport of the digital stream being sent by my USB port to my DAC.   
i.e     will the DAC see the same digital stream that was presented to my USB port

 

Were the  answer to be  'No'   

 

..............   then, clearly, the cable does not do what it is required to do, is a pice of crap, and is not worth even $1

 

Were the answer to be 'Yes'
   
.............  Teriffic !!!! Exactly what I want.  Great cable.  The DAC has recieved the bits of the digitised music exactly as they left the USB port and exactly the same as were received with my 'cheap' cable

 

What I now need to know is how does the Audioquest Diamond instruct the DAC to convert back to audio the exact same digital stream that my cheap cable delivered but this time with "extreme smoothness in the midrange and high end that at the same time, is detailed and very revealing"   ??

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