Miska Posted October 15, 2019 Share Posted October 15, 2019 12 minutes ago, pkane2001 said: I have a number of XMOS and Amanero USB receiver-based devices. None of them suffer from USB noise, except for the old Emotiva XDA-2, which appears to be using a Cmedia CM6631 receiver. I have too, and I have many that suffer from USB noise. Although for many that is baked-in feature of the USB interface instead of delivery from the cable... For example is is quite common to see 8 kHz USB packet ticking (125 µs packet interval of UAC2) in the DAC output... Signalyst - Developer of HQPlayer Pulse & Fidelity - Software Defined Amplifiers Link to comment
Popular Post RickyV Posted October 15, 2019 Popular Post Share Posted October 15, 2019 I theory is that mr. Donald T is Purposefully rattling your cages to get the best explanation out of you Teresa and Ralf11 2 Meitner ma1 v2 dac, Sovereign preamp and power amp, DIY speakers, scan speak illuminator. Raal Requisite VM-1a -> SR-1a with Accurate Sound convolution. Under development: NUC7i7dnbe, Euphony Stylus, Qobuz. Modded Buffalo-fiber-EtherRegen, DC3- Isoregen, Lush^2 Link to comment
DonaldT2109 Posted October 15, 2019 Share Posted October 15, 2019 2 minutes ago, Miska said: Can you not understand that cables can have perfect data delivery, and at the same time deliver electrical noise that bypasses the data path. You know, this is also why many cables have ferrite beads... Oh My Goodness !!!!!!!!!! Forget the damn cables Once more Did the CRC check ? No ? Send me the data again Can you not understand that using the protocols that are used what is sent is received Blackmorec 1 Link to comment
DonaldT2109 Posted October 15, 2019 Share Posted October 15, 2019 1 minute ago, RickyV said: I theory is that mr. Donald T is Purposefully rattling your cages to get the best explanation out of you No Ricky I am not. I asked a very simple question yet nobody seems to able to answer it Teresa 1 Link to comment
Popular Post pkane2001 Posted October 15, 2019 Popular Post Share Posted October 15, 2019 1 minute ago, Miska said: I have too, and I have many that suffer from USB noise. Although for many that is baked-in feature of the USB interface instead of delivery from the cable... For example is is quite common to see 8 kHz USB packet ticking (125 µs packet interval of UAC2) in the DAC output... Right. That’s why it’s important to check measurements before buying a DAC. Proper receiver implementation will make specialty USB cables and regen devices unnecessary. Don Hills, Teresa and esldude 2 1 -Paul DeltaWave, DISTORT, Earful, PKHarmonic, new: Multitone Analyzer Link to comment
fas42 Posted October 15, 2019 Share Posted October 15, 2019 And plenty of posts from people firing shots from both sides of the barricades ... The technicals believe everything is under control because they've read the textbooks, and their measurements look good - the other lot know this is BS, because they can hear the difference when things that "shouldn't matter" are changed. I happen to sit on the fence ... I know, and at times am extremely frustrated, when things matter that shouldn't - but I don't go away and stick my head in the sand, spouting mantras from the 'experts'. Translated, that means that I actually investigate what's going on, rather than pontificating - and lo and behold ... it turns out that there are subtleties in the matter which are mostly ignored ... compensate for these, and one gains a significant step up in subjective SQ. And I reckon that's a pretty smart use of one's time, just between you and me ... . The Computer Audiophile 1 Link to comment
Popular Post Miska Posted October 15, 2019 Popular Post Share Posted October 15, 2019 6 minutes ago, DonaldT2109 said: Once more Did the CRC check ? No ? Send me the data again By the way, UAC2 doesn't do resends on errors... (and many DACs don't even check the correctness) 6 minutes ago, DonaldT2109 said: Can you not understand that using the protocols that are used what is sent is received Yes, but what we are discussing here is completely outside of scope of protocols or digital transmission. Just like if you use powerline Ethernet. You have electricity on the wire, and you have data and the high level protocols on the wire. Electricity is delivered completely independently on the same wire regardless of your data transmission. And your bits don't have a faintest idea if the electricity is 110V 60Hz or 230V 50Hz, or that the electricity exists there at all. esldude, Blackmorec and Teresa 2 1 Signalyst - Developer of HQPlayer Pulse & Fidelity - Software Defined Amplifiers Link to comment
Miska Posted October 15, 2019 Share Posted October 15, 2019 2 minutes ago, pkane2001 said: Right. That’s why it’s important to check measurements before buying a DAC. Proper receiver implementation will make specialty USB cables and regen devices unnecessary. You cannot fix that part with such devices either. But Chord Mojo is one good example of a DAC that doesn't have that particular problem, but is extremely sensitive to noises coming from the USB cable... pkane2001 1 Signalyst - Developer of HQPlayer Pulse & Fidelity - Software Defined Amplifiers Link to comment
Popular Post Samuel T Cogley Posted October 15, 2019 Popular Post Share Posted October 15, 2019 I was surprised at first when I discovered that USB Audio Class 2 (or for that matter, Class 1) has no error correction features. I actually read the spec (pretty much the whole thing) because I just didn't believe there wasn't error correction in there. There is none. Teresa and The Computer Audiophile 1 1 Link to comment
fas42 Posted October 15, 2019 Share Posted October 15, 2019 23 minutes ago, DonaldT2109 said: Or better grammer and punctuation 😉 Can you answer my question please ? There are all of these 'experts' on here and not one of them can answer my simple question about the cable ? Miska is shooting very straight ... he has to deal with the realities of getting the best results from the hardware, so listen to what he's saying. One can look at the process of passing information around circuitry at different levels of detail - talking about protocols is fairly high level, abstract; talking about what electrons are actually doing is extremely low level, mind numbingly tedious . Both are describing what happens, both are important ... but more abstract versions of the 'truth' will never mention the more subtle realities of what happens in finely detailed viewpoints of "what's going on" - unfortunately, in audio, the latter matter if one wants best sound. Link to comment
DonaldT2109 Posted October 15, 2019 Share Posted October 15, 2019 I can not believe that nobody can answer my basic question Please Can somebody take a stab, It is very important to the whole discussion Teresa 1 Link to comment
RickyV Posted October 15, 2019 Share Posted October 15, 2019 5 minutes ago, DonaldT2109 said: No Ricky I am not. I asked a very simple question yet nobody seems to able to answer it Well I must say you are pushing buttons here. Maybe you’ll get this usb conundrum solved by morning 😀. Although your method is quite nauseating Albrecht 1 Meitner ma1 v2 dac, Sovereign preamp and power amp, DIY speakers, scan speak illuminator. Raal Requisite VM-1a -> SR-1a with Accurate Sound convolution. Under development: NUC7i7dnbe, Euphony Stylus, Qobuz. Modded Buffalo-fiber-EtherRegen, DC3- Isoregen, Lush^2 Link to comment
Popular Post mansr Posted October 15, 2019 Popular Post Share Posted October 15, 2019 8 minutes ago, Samuel T Cogley said: I was surprised at first when I discovered that USB Audio Class 2 (or for that matter, Class 1) has no error correction features. I actually read the spec (pretty much the whole thing) because I just didn't believe there wasn't error correction in there. There is none. The expected error rate is one per week or so. It's not worth the complexity to have retransmission and the unbounded worst-case latency that brings. Teresa and Samuel T Cogley 1 1 Link to comment
DonaldT2109 Posted October 15, 2019 Share Posted October 15, 2019 17 minutes ago, RickyV said: Well I must say you are pushing buttons here. Maybe you’ll get this usb conundrum solved by morning 😀. Although your method is quite nauseating How the hell is it nauseating ????? What method ? How many methods are there of asking a question ? I asked an important question a while ago and nobody will answer it What is the problem other than it will prove that A USB cable can not possibly affect the audio. I really don't understand how people still beleve these crooks, even after being caught red handed cheating at an A/B test, when they say thar their ultra-expensive cables can improve the audio Teresa 1 Link to comment
esldude Posted October 15, 2019 Share Posted October 15, 2019 4 minutes ago, DonaldT2109 said: How the hell is it nauseating ????? What method ? How many methods are there of asking a question ? I asked an important question a while ago and nobody will answer it What is the problem other than it will prove that A USB cable can not possibly affect the audio. I really don't understand how people still beleve these crooks, even after being caught red handed cheating at an A/B test, when they say thar their ultra-expensive cables can improve the audio Ultra expensive USB cables aren't necessary nor even likely helpful even in the worst cases. However, with poor design it is possible for the USB cable to alter the analog output. So yes it is possible. Expensive cables aren't the answer, and with most gear doesn't happen. But it is possible. Look here for measured proof of that. https://www.audiosciencereview.com/forum/index.php?threads/do-usb-audio-cables-make-a-difference.1887/ Confused 1 And always keep in mind: Cognitive biases, like seeing optical illusions are a sign of a normally functioning brain. We all have them, it’s nothing to be ashamed about, but it is something that affects our objective evaluation of reality. Link to comment
Qhwoeprktiyns Posted October 15, 2019 Share Posted October 15, 2019 Any electrical connection between the source and the DAC is going to pass some interference that is going to disrupt the DAC's precision. The only way out of this is using an optical connection, which offers perfect galvanic isolation. Current optical connections (Toslink through glass or fiber cables) have some drawbacks, as the signal is degraded as it goes through the cable. Though they may not always admit it, most DAC manufacturers today recognize the issues with digital audio. I have been following the work of the Brown brothers (ECDesigns) for some time, and they have done extensive research on this topic. They have developped a low interference source, playing WAV files stored on USB keys, with a very low power consumption processor, battery power supply. Their first model worked with an optical interlink to the DAC, but they have now developped what they call an "ElectroTOS" interlink, which basically solves the problem with signal degradation in the cable while offering complete galvanic isolation. I have tested this with a Denafrips Terminator DAC, and the results are spectacular - unlike anything I had heard before. These tests were conducted with several other experienced audiophiles, and everyone came to the same conclusion. What can be obtained from a "low interference" source has to be heard to be "believed" (and preferably with a high quality DAC and system...). So concerning "bits are bits", I think the reason why there is still so much debate about this is because there are simply very few solutions today that can let us "experience" a "good signal", and there are many solutions offered which probably have very limited effects, or only address part of the problem (i.e. witness everything being developped around network filters/reclockers). These solutions may not even produce the same effect in two different systems. RickyV 1 Link to comment
Ralf11 Posted October 15, 2019 Share Posted October 15, 2019 4 hours ago, Miska said: ... Of course data transmission is error-free. But this is not the issue. It hugely matters if you use UTP or STP cable. Because STP cable connects grounds of two devices, potentially allowing dirty ground currents to flow, while UTP cable doesn't and the signals are galvanically isolated using transformers (if you don't use PoE). Transformer isolation exists there for a reason! STP cable can be only used if you have a very carefully designed grounding layout on your entire system (and not for long runs for various reasons). ... Here it is again... Link to comment
Popular Post mansr Posted October 15, 2019 Popular Post Share Posted October 15, 2019 1 minute ago, esldude said: Ultra expensive USB cables aren't necessary nor even likely helpful even in the worst cases. However, with poor design it is possible for the USB cable to alter the analog output. So yes it is possible. Expensive cables aren't the answer, and with most gear doesn't happen. But it is possible. Sure, cables can differ in how much noise they transmit from the source or pick up from the environment, and a poorly designed DAC can be sensitive to this. It still seems unlikely, to the point of impossibility, that such noise would alter the soundstage width or whatever, as is claimed by various vendors and their victims. crenca, esldude and daverich4 2 1 Link to comment
Popular Post Ralf11 Posted October 15, 2019 Popular Post Share Posted October 15, 2019 1 hour ago, esldude said: It actually was a simple functional certified 2.0 USB cable from a Lenovo laptop. The clock of the DAC is being effected by the USB connection. I'm not claiming the bits are changed. Only that without changing the bits it is possible to have the analog result altered. It happens with poor incompetently designed handling of the USB input to the DAC. One more time... esldude and Teresa 2 Link to comment
Popular Post DonaldT2109 Posted October 15, 2019 Popular Post Share Posted October 15, 2019 28 minutes ago, esldude said: But it is possible. So you honestly believe that a USB cable can give the digitised data "extreme smoothness in the midrange and high end that at the same time, is detailed and very revealing" ? 28 minutes ago, esldude said: Look here for measured proof of that. https://www.audiosciencereview.com/forum/index.php?threads/do-usb-audio-cables-make-a-difference.1887/ Techno-babble and psuedo-science can not give the audio over a USB cable "extreme smoothness in the midrange and high end that at the same time, is detailed and very revealing" 18 minutes ago, Ralf11 said: Only that without changing the bits it is possible to have the analog result altered. to give "extreme smoothness in the midrange and high end that at the same time, is detailed and very revealing" ? Really. That is very clever daverich4 and Teresa 1 1 Link to comment
sandyk Posted October 15, 2019 Share Posted October 15, 2019 1 hour ago, DonaldT2109 said: I can not believe that nobody can answer my basic question Please Can somebody take a stab, It is very important to the whole discussion You are an E.E. This is an Audiophile forum, not a sub branch of Hydrogen Audio. Do NOT expect non technically qualified members to provide either measurements or technical explanations . That is the job of the suitably qualified members AFTER they have the reports verified. You should be able to work it out for yourself if you are half as smart as you claim to be , and are able to put aside your prejudices and have a listen to somebody's system where they are readily able to demonstrate these differences. There are numerous members capable of demonstrating these " impossible" things through their own systems. It would help greatly, if you were able to either hear these differences for yourself, or at least have the person demonstrating these differences do so under NON SIGHTED conditions. to demonstrate that they are real. If I wasn't on the other side of the Equator I would be more than happy to do this. RickyV and daverich4 1 1 How a Digital Audio file sounds, or a Digital Video file looks, is governed to a large extent by the Power Supply area. All that Identical Checksums gives is the possibility of REGENERATING the file to close to that of the original file. PROFILE UPDATED 13-11-2020 Link to comment
Popular Post esldude Posted October 15, 2019 Popular Post Share Posted October 15, 2019 Just now, DonaldT2109 said: So you honestly believe that a USB cable can give the digitised data "extreme smoothness in the midrange and high end that at the same time, is detailed and very revealing" ? Techno-babble and psuedo-science can not give the audio over a USB cable "extreme smoothness in the midrange and high end that at the same time, is detailed and very revealing" to give "extreme smoothness in the midrange and high end that at the same time, is detailed and very revealing" ? Really. That is very clever DonaldT, stop putting words in my mouth. My prior comments including the selectively quoted one you replied too in no way indicated what you just posted. If you wanted to discuss the issue fine, but if you have to ignore measurements of the phenomena to do that, then you aren't conversing in good faith. I've not said or implied basic sound quality is altered by USB cables. I've even said, get a good DAC, and it isn't a thing anymore. Yet, it is possible to alter the analog output of a DAC via the USB cable with bit perfect transmission. That you twisted that into your most recent reply indicates you are just here to stir the schiit and troll. You didn't even have enough sense or courtesy to read the link I posted. You'd realize just how off base you were unless you intended to be all along. sandyk and RickyV 2 And always keep in mind: Cognitive biases, like seeing optical illusions are a sign of a normally functioning brain. We all have them, it’s nothing to be ashamed about, but it is something that affects our objective evaluation of reality. Link to comment
sandyk Posted October 15, 2019 Share Posted October 15, 2019 11 minutes ago, DonaldT2109 said: So you honestly believe that a USB cable can give the digitised data "extreme smoothness in the midrange and high end that at the same time, is detailed and very revealing" Not quite what you are saying, but you would do well to listen to Dennis, who is actually quite well informed in most areas such as this, but is every bit as sceptical as you are. If you had been here a little longer you would also realise that Dennis is also on your side of the fence with most of this, and is well respected by most of the technically qualified members too. I don't agree with Dennis in some areas, but I do respect his technical knowledge and abilities. How a Digital Audio file sounds, or a Digital Video file looks, is governed to a large extent by the Power Supply area. All that Identical Checksums gives is the possibility of REGENERATING the file to close to that of the original file. PROFILE UPDATED 13-11-2020 Link to comment
Popular Post pkane2001 Posted October 15, 2019 Popular Post Share Posted October 15, 2019 8 minutes ago, DonaldT2109 said: So you honestly believe that a USB cable can give the digitised data "extreme smoothness in the midrange and high end that at the same time, is detailed and very revealing" ? Techno-babble and psuedo-science can not give the audio over a USB cable "extreme smoothness in the midrange and high end that at the same time, is detailed and very revealing" to give "extreme smoothness in the midrange and high end that at the same time, is detailed and very revealing" ? Really. That is very clever I think you may get somewhere if you pause to actually read what is being said instead of automatically jumping into an argument. Your question has been answered many times in this thread, by @esldude, myself, @Miska and others. Why you keep insisting on asking for an explanation of an effect that everyone agrees doesn’t exist is beyond me. esldude, Confused, sandyk and 1 other 1 1 2 -Paul DeltaWave, DISTORT, Earful, PKHarmonic, new: Multitone Analyzer Link to comment
DonaldT2109 Posted October 15, 2019 Share Posted October 15, 2019 3 minutes ago, sandyk said: You are an E.E. This is an Audiophile forum, not a sub branch of Hydrogen Audio. I can not believe how the 'golden eared' ones will do everything they can to use psuedo-science and techno-babble and pages of useless diagrams to make a point and then say that a very very simple question is out of their scope 9 minutes ago, sandyk said: You should be able to work it out for yourself if you are half as smart as you claim to be , and are able to put aside your prejudices and have a listen to somebody's system where they are readily able to demonstrate these differences. OK so here goes. Here is the question again and l have answered it myself with the two possible answers The Question again I want to play my 16-bit/44.1kHz FLAC of 'Take 5' I play to USB on my Linux system bypassing any EQ or otherwise. Bits from file sent to USB 'as is' If I use the Audioquest Diamond will I acheive bit for bit transport of the digital stream being sent by my USB port to my DAC. i.e will the DAC see the same digital stream that was presented to my USB port Were the answer to be 'No' .............. then, clearly, the cable does not do what it is required to do, is a pice of crap, and is not worth even $1 Were the answer to be 'Yes' ............. Teriffic !!!! Exactly what I want. Great cable. The DAC has recieved the bits of the digitised music exactly as they left the USB port and exactly the same as were received with my 'cheap' cable What I now need to know is how does the Audioquest Diamond instruct the DAC to convert back to audio the exact same digital stream that my cheap cable delivered but this time with "extreme smoothness in the midrange and high end that at the same time, is detailed and very revealing" ?? Link to comment
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