Bits is bits?

[Le Concombre Masqué]

40 minutes ago, DonaldT2109 said:

 

 

Read what exactly    ?

What Miska has patiently and clearly exposed ; but you obviously don't read but just are eager to claim your point. 

[kumakuma]

30 minutes ago, DonaldT2109 said:

 

Forget the cables and read up on communications protocols, particularly those dealing with audio (or anything else for that matter)

In your scenario Internation telephone conversations would grind to a halt, All IP telephony would stop ,you wouldn't be able to talk on Skype or Whatsapp.  The protocols used allow all of these systems to use audio ( and video) with no problems

 

You had me until this post...

[DonaldT2109]

1 minute ago, kumakuma said:

You had me until this post...

 

 

How so ?

[DonaldT2109]

11 minutes ago, Le Concombre Masqué said:

What Miska has patiently and clearly exposed ; but you obviously don't read but just are eager to claim your point. 

 

Actualy, during my time designing networks for some of the world's major banks, I have written far more on the subject than I have read. I did read it. It was wrong.     Any answers to my question yet

[marce]

44 minutes ago, DonaldT2109 said:

 

Forget the cables and read up on communications protocols, particularly those dealing with audio (or anything else for that matter)

In your scenario Internation telephone conversations would grind to a halt, All IP telephony would stop ,you wouldn't be able to talk on Skype or Whatsapp.  The protocols used allow all of these systems to use audio ( and video) with no problems

Mansr and Miska are talking about a use of a particular internet cable in a domestic environment. The protocols do not allow for the voltage drop that can be generated across the screen, causing issues. The right cable for the right job, domestic Ethernet is not really geared up for screens yet. 

I think this will cover the issues and use of such cable:

https://customcable.ca/stp-vs-utp-cables-application-comparison/

[DonaldT2109]

7 minutes ago, marce said:

Mansr and Miska are talking about a use of a particular internet cable in a domestic environment. The protocols do not allow for the voltage drop that can be generated across the screen, causing issues. The right cable for the right job, domestic Ethernet is not really geared up for screens yet. 

 

One more time,       the bits received will be the bits that were sent. The protocols do not care about the cables and voltage drops and do not care if you are in a domestic environment, a major bank or, the space station

Did I receive that packet correctly?    No I didn't.    Hey, can you send it again

That is why I am suggesting reading up on these protocols

 

 

 

Any answers to my question on USB audio  yet?      anybody?

[sandyk]

8 hours ago, mansr said:

Why not? He seems a hell of a lot more trustworthy than, say, John Swenson or Ted Denney.

A typical catty remark from  the resident Troll .

 Clearly, John Swenson knows way more than you do in  this area and more than likely has way more practical experience in many other areas that you lack. Jealous perhaps ?

 

 

[esldude]

26 minutes ago, DonaldT2109 said:

 

One more time,       the bits received will be the bits that were sent. The protocols do not care about the cables and voltage drops and do not care if you are in a domestic environment, a major bank or, the space station

Did I receive that packet correctly?    No I didn't.    Hey, can you send it again

That is why I am suggesting reading up on these protocols

 

 

 

Any answers to my question on USB audio  yet?      anybody?

Here is the FFT of a Schiit Modi 2 DAC.  This DAC is very susceptible to junk coming across the USB cable.  You have some complaints you hear mouse clicks, hard drive activity etc when connected via USB.  Like old SoundBlaster sound cards in the old days.  This is an example of what can happen even though the bits were transferred correctly.  

 

You also see the result when an Uptone Regen is used to clean up the USB signal.  A genuine improvement and change at the analog output of a DAC receiving bit perfect bits.  So in principle and in reality such problems are real. 

 

OTOH, few DACs are effected like this.  Here is an iDac and Mytek with and without the Uptone Regen. 

 

 

So do you need a Regen or just a good DAC?  Even with good DACs are similar smaller effects happening below the measurement noise floor?  I guess that could be the case.  Are they meaningful in the sense they change the sound if the effects are that far down.  I'd guess no if you have a DAC not so easily corrupted by the USB connection.  Which is most of them.  

 

Though not shown that Modi 2 DAC was found to vary in artifacts with various length and quality cables, and I seem to recall even different PC's for the USB source.  Again, I don't think it matters for nearly all other DACs.  

 

[sandyk]

8 hours ago, marce said:

Ignorance is bliss...

More Elitist BS from you.

Consumers , and that includes Audiophiles, do NOT need to know the ins and outs of the design process in the products they purchase. Consumers have a right to expect that they are paying for a competently designed product.

[DonaldT2109]

5 minutes ago, esldude said:

Though not shown that Modi 2 DAC was shown to vary in artifacts with various length and quality cables, and I seem to recall even different PC's for the USB source.  Again, I don't think it matters for nearly all other DACs.  

 

 

All this shows is somebody taking a really bad USB connection and 'cleaning it'   (LOL)

It does not show how the bits were received.  And unless you have a home made Micky Mouse DAC, the audio side cannot be affected by noise or anyting else on the USB cable.    What the DAC does is take the digital input from USB and converts it to audio. This is basic stuff

 

and why would you bother with a regen unless you had to have avery long USB cable run?

 

Any response to my question yet?    Anybody?

[sandyk]

6 hours ago, DonaldT2109 said:

 

 

Some fascinating stuff Miska but I asked for just one thing

 

How does a USB cable change the sound of the audio that has been digitised like some people believe is possible.

 

No takers so far.   I wonder why?    

Perhaps they have all conceded that it is plain impossible

 

 Perhaps you have already managed to appear on a few IGNORE lists ?

[DonaldT2109]

2 minutes ago, sandyk said:

Perhaps you have already managed to appear on a few IGNORE lists ?

 

Yup the guys who swear they can hear a difference but will not listen to reason, logic and the truth

 

Fingers in ears and "la la la la la la la"

[esldude]

1 minute ago, DonaldT2109 said:

 

 

All this shows is somebody taking a really bad USB connection and 'cleaning it'   (LOL)

It does not show how the bits were received.  And unless you have a home made Micky Mouse DAC, the audio side cannot be affected by noise or anyting else on the USB cable.    What the DAC does is take the digital input from USB and converts it to audio. This is basic stuff

 

and why would you bother with a regen unless you had to have avery long USB cable run?

 

Any response to my question yet?    Anybody?

It actually was a simple functional certified 2.0 USB cable from a Lenovo laptop.  The clock of the DAC is being effected by the USB connection.  I'm not claiming the bits are changed.  Only that without changing the bits it is possible to have the analog result altered.  It happens with poor incompetently designed handling of the USB input to the DAC.  

[sandyk]

6 minutes ago, DonaldT2109 said:

 

Yup the guys who swear they can hear a difference but will not listen to reason, logic and the truth

 

 You are so out of touch with the REAL world these days that it is embarrassing.

A.S. member George Graves is probably as experienced as you are in many areas, yet he finds that typical USB sounds shitty in comparison with even the Toslink that he uses. However, George is not only well qualified in this area but also reviews HiFi products, as well as professionally recording Classical Music.

[DonaldT2109]

1 minute ago, esldude said:

It happens with poor incompetently designed handling of the USB input to the DAC.  

 

 

At last we have it. A bad DAC can degrade the audio. but of course, the USB cable can' enhance it

[esldude]

3 minutes ago, DonaldT2109 said:

 

 

At last we have it. A bad DAC can degrade the audio. but of course, the USB cable can' enhance it

Yes in the case of the Modi 2 it might enhance it a little.  The take home message isn't to worry about the USB cable.  The message is don't use a Modi 2.  Instead of buying an expensive USB cable (which isn't likely to help) or a Regen (which does help the Modi 2), I'd suggest someone spend that money on a different DAC that needs no such crutches.  

[DonaldT2109]

1 minute ago, sandyk said:

You are so out of touch with the REAL world these days that it is embarrassing.

 

 

Oh Dear Sandy.  You are the one embarrassing himself with wild speculation and absolutely no knowledge of the subject

 

I know more on the subject than you or your buddy George will ever know.

 

A USB cable can not and never will enhance the audio being passed over it in digital format

 

 

Care to answer my question

[sandyk]

4 minutes ago, esldude said:

It actually was a simple functional certified 2.0 USB cable from a Lenovo laptop.  The clock of the DAC is being effected by the USB connection.  I'm not claiming the bits are changed.  Only that without changing the bits it is possible to have the analog result altered.  It happens with poor incompetently designed handling of the USB input to the DAC.  

 Dennis

 There are undoubtedly many DACs out there with similar problems, often due to the use of a generic USB Input implementation.

 Perhaps the bean counters have way too much influence ?

 I even found a 5M long USB cable that was supposed to  meet USB 2.0 specifications that had no shield whatsoever when I went to make it into 2 separate cables !!! 

 

Alex

[sandyk]

10 minutes ago, DonaldT2109 said:

A USB cable can not and never will enhance the audio being passed over it in digital format

 

 Yet once again you are putting words into my mouth that I have never claimed .

 Do you have a short term memory problem ?

 George isn't my buddy, however he is a well respected E.E .who has a great deal of experience in the ultra high frequency cable area (and above) with years of experience with  IBM IIRC.

 

[DonaldT2109]

Just now, sandyk said:

 George isn't my buddy however he is a well respected E.E .who has a great deal of experience in the ultra high frequency cable area (and above) with years of experience with  IBM IIRC.

 

 

........................  but knows nothing about USB audio

[pkane2001]

10 minutes ago, sandyk said:

 Dennis

 There are undoubtedly many DACs out there with similar problems, often due to the use of a generic USB Input implementation.

 Perhaps the bean counters have way too much influence ?

 I even found a 5M long USB cable that was supposed to  meet USB 2.0 specifications that had no shield whatsoever when I went to make it into 2 separate cables !!! 

 

Alex

 

I have a number of XMOS and Amanero USB receiver-based devices. None of them suffer from USB noise, except for the old Emotiva XDA-2, which appears to be using a Cmedia CM6631 receiver.

[fas42]

10 hours ago, DonaldT2109 said:

This is where you are going completely wrong. This is where a lot of people have their huge, huge misunderstanding.

The analogue signal is not carrying any audio. The analogue signal is transporting the bitstream of digitally encoded audio

You cannot possibly affect the quality of the source audio by reducing distortion on the analogue signal. Can you really not understand this ?

 

 

 

 

<Sigh> ... dopey me, I assumed people reading what I said would understand that I was referring to the analogue signal at the point of conversion from digital to analogue, and following - not the analogue qualitities of the waveforms transporting the digital signal.

 

Remind me to use words of one syllable or less, next time ...

[Miska]

2 hours ago, DonaldT2109 said:

Can you not understand that the cables do not matter.   The protocols involved give perfect delivery

 

Can you not understand that cables can have perfect data delivery, and at the same time deliver electrical noise that bypasses the data path. You know, this is also why many cables have ferrite beads...

[pkane2001]

10 minutes ago, fas42 said:

Remind me to use words of one syllable or less, next time ...

 

I love words with less than one syllable!

[DonaldT2109]

9 minutes ago, fas42 said:

 

Remind me to use words of one syllable or less, next time ...

 

Or better grammer and punctuation   😉

 

Can you answer my question  please    ?

 

There are all of these 'experts' on here and not one of them can answer my simple question about the cable ?