Article: The Best Version Of… Crosby, Stills & Nash Self-Titled Debut

[Josh Mound]

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[Josh Mound]

9 hours ago, firedog said:

Really interesting. Didn't realize they had done much of it in one take. Impressive. 

Looking for the Gastwirt version, as that's the one of the five I don't have; it's numbered 82522-2.

 

The next year I see they came out with 82651-2: is that the same mastering?

 

1 hour ago, MikeyFresh said:

 

Looking more carefully at the Discogs listing for this release, it does appear to be the Gastwirt mastering, the Credits and Notes list him, as well as Ocean View Digital as the mastering studio.

 

 

Yes, all of the Gastwirt masterings (gold or silver) should have his credit on the back.

[Josh Mound]

7 hours ago, austinpop said:

Wow - amazing article. I'm in awe.

 

Can anyone supply a purchase or streaming link to the Gastwirt CD?

 

Any of the 1993 or 1994 CDs on Discogs. They can be had for $5.

[Josh Mound]

6 hours ago, Ralf11 said:

Thanks, Josh!

 

Now I have to try and figure out which version I have...

 

Anybody know how to "back-calculate" from the code A2  19117 to the mastering?  Discogs tells me that SD 191117 is a USA release, but not the mastering.  No info about 'A2'

 

That's the Diament. 

[Josh Mound]

6 hours ago, firedog said:

Discogs seems to have the same version of the album available for much less. Hopefully Josh can tell us which ones are the Gastwirt version. 

 

5 hours ago, MikeyFresh said:

 

The date 2006 and Rhino label are a dead giveaway on the Grundman version, as well as the presence of Bonus Tracks #11-14. It was also an HDCD if I'm not mistaken.

 

The Atlantic label version (1993 gold disc Gastwirt mastering) that was then released as an aluminum CD in 1994 will only have 10 tracks, the original album line-up, no bonus tracks, not an HDCD, not Rhino.

 

 

Thats a good question.

 

3 hours ago, Ralf11 said:

 

So anything prior to 1993 cannot be the Gastwirt mastering ??

 

2 hours ago, MikeyFresh said:

 

Correct, older than 1993 is the Diament mastering, with the possible exception of the original 1987 Japanese CD release of this title (credited to Bernie Grundman and Stanley Johnston).

 

There are non-gold Gastwirt versions available for less than $10. They will all have his mastering credit on the back, below the track list. Nothing before 1993 will be his mastering.

 

A Hoffman forum member was supposed to mail me his '87 Japan CD to test. I haven't received it yet, though. I've read claims that it's the Diament CD, and that makes the most sense. The Grundman/Johnston credit on Discogs is probably incorrect, since one Gastwirt Japan CD is given the same erroneous credit on Discogs.

[Josh Mound]

2 hours ago, ray-dude said:

 

Rajiv, searching on Tidal (via Roon) for Joe Gastwirt, they have one version of this album attributed to him as engineer (10 tracks, etc)  I can't confirm that is the version that Josh heard, but it looks promising.

 

I believe that's the Grundman version without bonus tracks. (There are a few later Japan CDs that are the Grundman without bonus tracks, too. I made the mistake of paying big bucks for one. Fortunately the Ebay seller was willing to take the return!)

[Josh Mound]

2 hours ago, bobflood said:

Incredible article Josh!

 

It took me back to the summer of '69 when I was a directionless 19 year old college drop out. I had just enlisted in the USAF hoping to stay out of Vietnam (worked). This was a tough time and this brought back many memories, some good and others not so good. The thing that strikes me the most is just how much of a mess my generation was, but looking around now it is painful to see how precious little has changed.

 

I had the vinyl album and several of the CD versions but I can no longer listen to the music of my youth without some sadness so I just don't do it. That was then and this is now as the saying goes. I found my direction in life after leaving the service and left that era behind although one can never truly leave it totally behind. My worst fear then is that I would not live to see 21 but here I am on the cusp of 70 and happy so it did all work out for me. I still mourn for all those of my generation who needlessly perished.

 

Thanks for the trip down memory lane and keep up this great series.

 

Bob Flood

 

Bob, Wow! Thank you for the wonderful, heartfelt reflection. I can't tell you how much I appreciate it. I'm very glad you're here on the cusp on 70, too!

[Josh Mound]

By the way, I just updated the article to fix the footnotes and change the location of the tape box photo. (I sent Chris the wrong edit!)

 

The new footnote I added mentions that there's also a digital (in my belief) glitch on the Hoffman CD, which is another mark against it in my book, even if it's far from the deciding factor. (The Gastwirt is better on many more fronts, as I hope the article makes clear.)

 

One other thing I didn't mention is that the Grundman CD cuts out Crosby's ad-lib from "Come On in My Kitchen" before "49 Bye-Byes" for some odd reason. The Grundman CD was down far enough in my rankings that it didn't seem worth mentioning as another negative, though. 

[Josh Mound]

6 hours ago, DuckToller said:

Thank you Josh,
 

another chapter to a masterful book I will definately buy in the future, even if it's just to inherit it together with my music archive to my sons (and, eventually, then existing grandkids).
"A must have/read guide to the important music recordings of the 20th and 21st. century"  I will note for them! "You'll find the best version in the archive. Trust him!!!"

All the best from France,
Tom

 

Thanks so much! It’s so nice to know the TBVOs are appreciated. 

[Josh Mound]

6 hours ago, audiobomber said:

Crosby Stills & Nash were boring without Neil Young's rock edge.

 

5 hours ago, firedog said:

Disagree. I love Neil, but their two best albums are the first one and 1977’s CSN. Without Neil they had a kind of unity that they didn’t have with him. He changed the balance of the band and turned it into something else, something that seemed more like 4 guys - each a solo act with three band members. I prefer the band concept. 

 

4 hours ago, Ralf11 said:

I prefer the with Neil (or "under the thumb of Neil") albums...

 

He was a bit like Steve Jobs, a giant force that took over or at least affected the surrounding space, which consisted of musicians, not Higgs particles.

 

In the future, denizens of some distant galaxy will detect his gravity waves.

 

Neil is one of my favorite artists of all time, way above CSN. (It’s pointless to do a TBVO on any of his classic albums, though, since his own hi-res remasters are all so good.)

 

But I don’t know that I like CSN as a band better with him. Deja Vu isn’t as good overall as the debut, IMO. That said, I don’t think it’s Neil’s fault that the band fell apart. While I think Neil did throw off the chemistry, I think Stills’s cocaine use was the primary cause of CSN(Y)’s failure to live up to its promise. 

 

Even with Crosby’s own substance issues, I think the best post-debut CSN-related stuff (aside from Deja Vu and Neil’s solo work) is the first Nash-Crosby album, Crosby’s first solo album, and Nash’s first solo album. 

[Josh Mound]

12 hours ago, TubeLover said:

Josh,

 

Another absolutely superb article. Thank you again for this superlative continuing series. Your taste as to which albums to write about is equally matchless. Each one has been one of what I consider to be amongst the finest achievements of their era, and all of rock history.

 

JC

 

Thank you! I’m always looking for suggestions, too, if you have ideas. I have a very long master list that I work from, and I’m happy to add albums to it if they’re not already on there. 

 

I usually start research two or so columns ahead of time. Right now, I think Electric Warrior is next. Innervisions likely will follow that. But Wish You Were Here and Blue are also in various stages of research. 

 

I try to aim for albums that are classic, have interesting production stories, and have enough digital masterings to keep things interesting on the analysis front. (Unfortunately a lot of albums I’d love to write about fail the last category.)

[Josh Mound]

20 hours ago, TubeLover said:

Well, thus far, you've been right in my wheelhouse, for the most part, since Hounds of Love, So, Surrealistic Pillow and the Crosby Stills and Nash debut album are all in my twenty five best rock era albums ever, and Aja isn't far behind. 

 

Things that immediately come to mind are Close To The Edge, by Yes, Electric Ladyland by Hendrix, Who's Next, and The Moody Blues, "Days of The Future Passed. I'll admit that your plans for Joni Mitchell's Blue have me very interested too. 

 

JC

 

 

On 8/8/2019 at 1:51 PM, firedog said:

 

Derek and the Dominos - Layla. I think it will fit your criteria.

 

Layla is on my list, as are albums from Yes, Hendrix, and The Who. Close to the Edge is in the lead for Yes, and I’ve already done some preliminary stuff (ordering books and CDs) moving in that direction. For The Who, I’m torn between Who’s Next, which is more iconic, and Quadrophenia, which is my personal favorite. The Hendrix decision will be hard, too. 

[Josh Mound]

On 8/6/2019 at 8:09 PM, MikeyFresh said:

 

Correct, older than 1993 is the Diament mastering, with the possible exception of the original 1987 Japanese CD release of this title (credited to Bernie Grundman and Stanley Johnston).

 

I finally received the 1987 Japan CD, and it is the Diament mastering.

[Josh Mound]

On 8/21/2019 at 5:21 PM, DavidM1108 said:

Great article. I will say that through my cloth ears, and my Vivid Giya 3/Ayre MX 20s/MSB Platinum DAC/Innuous Statement server -- the HD Tracks download is richer, fuller, more detailed than the Gastwirt CD... my completely unscientific back to back plays always ended with me preferring the download?? Hmm...

 

While I don’t think the download is the best version, its overall sound signature is pretty good. It’s just more compressed than the Gastwirt, and I think the transfer isn’t as good as Gastwirt’s, despite the improvement in ADC tech.

 

That said, any increased compression can create the impression of fullness and more detail, since otherwise quiet sounds are raised in volume relative to the loud sounds. 

[Josh Mound]

On 9/18/2019 at 1:53 AM, TubeLover said:

Josh, just thought of another famous favorite album of mine, with many, many incarnations. The sound can be brilliant in some cases. This is one I am sure many people would love to read an article from regarding the best version of:

 

Dire Straits Brothers In Arms 

 

 

JC

 

That's absolutely on my list. The varying track lengths are a big question mark with it, too. 

[Josh Mound]

11 hours ago, Mr Wensleydale said:

@JoshM

 

Josh, will you be updating this to include your thoughts on the recently released MFSL SACD?

Yep! I ordered it this week!

[Josh Mound]

For those who've been following this, my update to this TBVO, which adds the new MoFi SACD, is now at the end of the original article.

 

I've also added a Club TBVO post with some further thoughts and sound samples, including one that applies the Gastwirt's EQ to the MFSL.

 

 

 

If you'd like to support TBVO, please use the link below to donate.

 

 

[Josh Mound]

6 hours ago, firedog said:

More great work. And you saved the money buying the SACD. Time to donate again.

From your keyboard to other reader’s PayPal accounts! 😜

[Josh Mound]

15 minutes ago, TubeLover said:

Whereas I bought the SACD and remain extremely disappointed in Mobile Fidelity. When new releases on SACD appear, I am usually cautious except in the case of MFSL. 

 

Thanks for clearing things up as to what's best, Josh, even if it left me with what is essentially a very pricey paper weight. Donation coming soon.

 

JC

Thank you so much for the donation. 

Even if it’s not my top choice for this album, I don’t regret buying the new SACD. The odds are always very good that a MoFi release will be the best. It’s just that this album has an unusually high number of great mastering engineers who’ve already done it. 

[Josh Mound]

8 hours ago, TubeLover said:

Thanks Josh, I knew I was being a bit over the top in my assessment of it being a paper weight, but it was mainly my disappointment that  MSFL, who, as you noted, usually provide the best version, fell a bit short. I don't completely regret buying it.

Your exceptional contributions to music, in this regard, are always immensely appreciated. Keep up the great work. 

 

I'm also very much looking forward to your eventual article on the best version of Dire Straits, Brother's In Arms. Now THAT album might be the one I have the most ever invested in with all the variations. 

 

JC

Brothers in Arms is 100% going to be a TBVO, likely sooner rather than later. (Given that I only manage to do 2-4 per year, the meaning of “sooner” is debatable, though!)

 

As an early all-digital album and one that was used to demonstrate the then-new CD format, it’s one I’ve had in mind from the very beginning, and I already have most versions. I just bought a sealed copy of the 20th anniversary CD/DVD, actually.

 

The weird quirk of Brothers in Arms is that some digital reissues inexplicably use the shorter versions of the tracks originally intended for vinyl. So I’m not quite sure how to handle those versions in my TBVO. Should those be crossed off from the get-go?

[Josh Mound]

13 minutes ago, TubeLover said:

I think eliminating them would be the logical and optimum choice. After all, they were shorter versions intended for vinyl, and this isn't a "what is the best vinyl" version of a track or album" series.

 

JC

That’s kind of my feeling, too. Were the original album the vinyl — with “extended” versions released later on CD — I’d want to include them all. But this was a digital album originally released on CD. The edited songs were a compromise for vinyl, in my understanding.