All Linear Power -- Possible?

[Blackmorec]

6 minutes ago, kumakuma said:

 

Why?

Because power supplies leave sonic footprints in the music. Some shallow and faint, some deeper and more distinct. And because no 2 power supplies have exactly the same footprint, they sound different. 

[AnotherSpin]

8 minutes ago, kumakuma said:

 

Why?

 

Can not tell – I am afraid it will insult you.

[kumakuma]

3 minutes ago, Blackmorec said:

Because power supplies leave sonic footprints in the music. Some shallow and faint, some deeper and more distinct. And because no 2 power supplies have exactly the same footprint, they sound different. 

 

And what's the science behind those "sonic footprints"?

[kumakuma]

5 minutes ago, AnotherSpin said:

 

Can not tell – I am afraid it will insult you.

 

I'm fine. Do your worst.

[AnotherSpin]

I'll wait for your reply with examples of my "insults" in the other thread, if you don't mind😉

 

[Blackmorec]

8 minutes ago, kumakuma said:

 

And what's the science behind those "sonic footprints"?

I don’t know. Its not something I studied. But let me put it this way. its something I can clearly hear, identify, describe, accurately reproduce, discuss and write about....

if you can’t explain it with science, it very likely you don’t know enough about the phenomenon, because despite my lack of a clear scientific explanation, the phenomenon exists 

 

[Speedskater]

6 minutes ago, Blackmorec said:

I don’t know. Its not something I studied. But let me put it this way. its something I can clearly hear, identify, describe, accurately reproduce, discuss and write about....

if you can’t explain it with science, it very likely you don’t know enough about the phenomenon, because despite my lack of a clear scientific explanation, the phenomenon exists 

 

So tell us about your 'due diligence' in making this statement.

[Blackmorec]

13 hours ago, Speedskater said:

So tell us about your 'due diligence' in making this statement.

40 years of never once discovering that I hear things that don’t actually exist. 

 

Think about the logic of hearing reproducible differences between products that are ‘supposedly’ produced by your imagination. Firstly you’d have to imagine the exact same thing each listening session, otherwise the system would be in constant flux. Then you’d have to imagine specific improvements and enhancements to music you’re very familiar with, that fit perfectly to the music or to the music’s acoustics. 

 

Frankly I find the idea that reproducible differences in cables etc are imagined far more fantasmagorical than the idea that we hear but can’t yet fully explain the differences scientifically. Why?  Because our Universe is stuffed full of things we can observe but not explain...one more is just business as usual. 

[sandyk]

15 hours ago, kumakuma said:

 

And what's the science behind those "sonic footprints"?

 

That's for the Scientists and Engineers to find out, NOT non qualified people who report hearing the differences, especially if they are confirmed by correctly implemented DBT sessions.

 

Actually, it's not that hard to demonstrate those Sonic footprints, or for that matter Visually with Digital video even.

 

[Summit]

On 8/2/2019 at 6:11 AM, GUTB said:

Is building a PC or streamer working on all linear power, ie, no switching regulators, possible? Do you need to buy a streamer designed like that?

 

You can of course buy a streamer or server that has only linear power supplies and that use very few or no switching regulators. Will it be cheap? I don’t think so. Will it sound good? Maybe but no guarantee. I believe in pragmatism and always intend to think more holistic than one thing is good or bad or black and white. It’s more like when is a LPS or linear regulators best used. I can of course only share my understanding of what’s important then it comes to building an audio PC.

 

1. First of all and most important, not all parts and circuits in an (audio) computer are equally important SQ vice. It’s the circuits that are directly handling the audio data or the digital audio signal that I believe has the most significant effect on the sound and there a good PSU is most important.  
2. A computer uses processors, devices that generate a lot of switching noise. The same can be said about hard drivers and a few other components on the motherboard. To separate the circuits that are handling the audio data or the digital audio signal is one of the most important things. I believe in electrical separation so that the USB board, LAN board and the OS hard drive is not connected to the same power supply as the rest of the circuits on the motherboard. Those USB/LAN boards should of course be of good quality and be able to be feed separated power.
3. Not all switching regulators are bad and not all linear regulators are good for sound. Switching regulators is often faster, and fast is good especially for digital audio devices. Switching regulators are OTOH often more noisy so may not be as good as linear regulators for some circuits that is handling the audio data or the digital audio signal.
4. To separate the computer in to two physically separated boxes with their own PSUs can enhance the sound further. There are many here on AS that use a Server and some kind of Endpoint because of that.
5. Not all switching power supplies are bad. Cheap switching power supplies are not the same as the best computer PSUs. I don’t believe in using low quality components just so that I can use a LPS for all components that isn’t managing audio (USB, LAN and the OS). I have tried.
6. If you would flow the above steps and use a good computer PSU together with a good LPS that is powering the USB, LAN and the OS hard drive as well as a good separate Endpoint with its own LPS you will get really good sound. The good thing is that with this kind configuration you can upgrade one component or software at the time then something better pops up.  

Other will certainly have other ways of getting excellent sound so all above is in my opinion and experience.

[marce]

23 hours ago, AnotherSpin said:

 

I read many things on this forum for many years. Do not remember anything particularly important or interesting from you. Will try to give more attention, but couldn't promise.

You are incredibly ignorant...

[marce]

On 8/6/2019 at 12:09 PM, sandyk said:

 

  I didn't claim that would improve things, neither did I say that it was a good idea, just possible which was the original question.

 I also pointed out the main disadvantages.

 Most of the A.S. members are also into far slower motherboards and processors too, not that I agree with that philosophy though.

 Modern  Linear voltage regulators such as the low noise and wide bandwidth LT3045 series should also be usable in some areas.. 

 So YES, it IS possible, but not a good idea. 

I have also made it clear several times previously that I use SMPS power in my PC and only use additional VERY low noise Linear type power regulation (<4uV) for the peripherals such as internal SSDs, my internal BR writer and some USB ports.

Read my earlier post on power distribution...

[sandyk]

1 minute ago, marce said:

Read my earlier post on power distribution...

 

Thanks, but I will pass on that.

[marce]

21 hours ago, Blackmorec said:

So do railway locomotives...doesn’t mean they’re related in any way to audio systems. So let’s waste a minute talking about your UHPLC system.  What aspect of your UHPLC is so sensitive to electrical issues?  The auto sampler and injector? The pumping and metering system?  Perhaps the control electronics or detection system? Column oven maybe? 

What type of electrical issues seem to be a problem and what actually happens when they occur? Do the peaks change shape? The peak areas change? More baseline noise?  Or maybe the ms detector software assigns incorrect masses or abundances?

Spectrometer PCB's and circuitry is designed with the lowest noise possible as are the supplies and if used the ION containment supplies, in fact most electronics of that level (instrumentation) is designed for maximum signal integrity and minimal noise. They 

[marce]

Just now, sandyk said:

 

Thanks, but I will pass on that.

Why may I ask, its in this thread and relevant.

 

[mansr]

9 minutes ago, marce said:

Why may I ask, its in this thread and relevant.

He doesn't want to risk learning something.

[sandyk]

14 minutes ago, marce said:

Why may I ask, its in this thread and relevant.

 

 

I am closing down the PC as I normally do around 10PM .

G'night

[Norton]

Say what you like about @GUTB but he sure knows how to pick a topic...

[AnotherSpin]

27 minutes ago, marce said:

You are incredibly ignorant...

 

Thank you.

[marce]

41 minutes ago, mansr said:

He doesn't want to risk learning something.

Its interesting to note the two people having a go at me on this thread have not read my earlier technical based posts very relevant to the thread and discussion.

I cannot understand this sort of attitude from grown men!

[mansr]

37 minutes ago, marce said:

Its interesting to note the two people having a go at me on this thread have not read my earlier technical based posts very relevant to the thread and discussion.

I cannot understand this sort of attitude from grown men!

I'm not convinced they are grown. Or men.

[Blackmorec]

1 hour ago, marce said:

Spectrometer PCB's and circuitry is designed with the lowest noise possible as are the supplies and if used the ION containment supplies, in fact most electronics of that level (instrumentation) is designed for maximum signal integrity and minimal noise. They 

There are dozens of different types of mass spectrometer and literally hundreds of power supplies for the various modules, producing anything from 1V to 20KV. These power supplies are designed specifically for a particular purpose and their specifications reflect the purpose for which they were designed. Nobody would design a PCB or power supply to be anything but low noise, but they wouldn't go to extreme and costly measures if such measures were uncalled for in the application.

Anyway, this part of the thread has gone so far OT that i can’t even remember what the original question was. All I know is that it’s absolutely nonsensical to compare mass spectrometer power supplies in all their different guises, with something designed for audio, since the design criteria are totally and utterly different.  

[marce]

I disagree....

Design criteria, low noise well regulated power.....

[Blackmorec]

5 minutes ago, marce said:

I disagree....

Design criteria, low noise well regulated power.....

Disagreeing is entirely your prerogative.  

 

The point you make is fairly obvious. Can you imagine any decent engineer setting out to design a high noise, poorly regulated power supply? Of course not. But that’s not the point. The point is,  some aspects of instrument design are more susceptible to electrical noise than others and designers will bear those needs in mind when determining how low the noise and how well regulated the supply needs to be. Today there are mass specs that measure mass with an accuracy of 1 and others that will go beyond 1ppm (0.000001). Some power supplies are low voltage and very stable, others high voltage and very fast, some need high speed polarity switching,  others need to be highly stable or scan voltages etc etc etc. In other words, nothing remotely like audio. 

[The Computer Audiophile]

2 hours ago, marce said:

You are incredibly ignorant...

This type of personal attack isn't tolerated here.