All Linear Power -- Possible?

[Blackmorec]

2 hours ago, botrytis said:

 

No - there is also electrical noise. Because the basic way to detect is  change in voltage, for a peak. Really it is very simple. Yes, you are right but most use EI not CI.

 

No lab I have worked in have MS plugged directly into the lab mains. Sorry no and I have worked in this field since 1983. There are too many other pieces of equipment that draw more power than that. Also, most labs have a backup power system and that is noisier (on start up) than regular power.

The difference between EI and CI is in the ionisation. EI fragments the molecule (usually at 70 Electron Volts) to form a typical pattern of fragmentation ions from which the molecule can be identified using pattern recognition techniques. In CI a reactor gas is used to ionise the target molecule, allowing its actual molecular weight to be determined. The detection technique for both is either a continuous or discreet dynode called an electron multiplier. Every ion hitting the EM causes a cascade of electrons which ultimately results in an electron pulse. The pulses are counted and the SW of the system displays those pulses as a continuous signal on a mass calibrated time base,  creating the peaks you talk about. 

I don’t know why we’re even talking about this as mass spectrometers have absolutely nothing in common with audio

[botrytis]

12 minutes ago, Blackmorec said:

The difference between EI and CI is in the ionisation. EI fragments the molecule (usually at 70 Electron Volts) to form a typical pattern of fragmentation ions from which the molecule can be identified using pattern recognition techniques. In CI a reactor gas is used to ionise the target molecule, allowing its actual molecular weight to be determined. The detection technique for both is either a continuous or discreet dynode called an electron multiplier. Every ion hitting the EM causes a cascade of electrons which ultimately results in an electron pulse. The pulses are counted and the SW of the system displays those pulses as a continuous signal on a mass calibrated time base,  creating the peaks you talk about. 

I don’t know why we’re even talking about this as mass spectrometers have absolutely nothing in common with audio

 

Sure they have a common element - they all use power. My UHPLC, is more sensitive to ANY electrical issues compared to music production. 

[Ralf11]

10 hours ago, manisandher said:

 

You've averaged well over 10 posts a day for nearly 3 years. This can't be healthy.

 

Perhaps give it a break (if not for your sake, for the sake of others)?

 

you'd like to suppress comments - but is that why you couldn't hack it?

[fas42]

Noise and other points of weaknesses in the playback chain are the reason why SQ fails to live up to expectations, when everything else suggests that there should be no problems ... this is something I learned over 3 decades ago, and I have heard and read nothing since which has altered that understanding. Which means that one has to persist until all issues are addressed - as always, the weakest link in the chain analogy.

 

Unfortunately, the "dumbest" things can be a factor - don't assume something is not relevant, just because "you know it's not relevant!!" ... I've had that one whack me over the head far more times than I care to think about, .

[AnotherSpin]

4 hours ago, fas42 said:

Noise and other points of weaknesses in the playback chain are the reason why SQ fails to live up to expectations, when everything else suggests that there should be no problems ... this is something I learned over 3 decades ago, and I have heard and read nothing since which has altered that understanding. Which means that one has to persist until all issues are addressed - as always, the weakest link in the chain analogy.

 

Unfortunately, the "dumbest" things can be a factor - don't assume something is not relevant, just because "you know it's not relevant!!" ... I've had that one whack me over the head far more times than I care to think about, .

 

So-called "knowledge" may be the dumbest factor in any area.

[marce]

5 hours ago, fas42 said:

Noise and other points of weaknesses in the playback chain are the reason why SQ fails to live up to expectations, when everything else suggests that there should be no problems ... this is something I learned over 3 decades ago, and I have heard and read nothing since which has altered that understanding. Which means that one has to persist until all issues are addressed - as always, the weakest link in the chain analogy.

 

Unfortunately, the "dumbest" things can be a factor - don't assume something is not relevant, just because "you know it's not relevant!!" ... I've had that one whack me over the head far more times than I care to think about, .

Maybe you should have studied EMC then over the last 30 years...

[marce]

1 hour ago, AnotherSpin said:

 

So-called "knowledge" may be the dumbest factor in any area.

That is probably the dumbest response I've had the misfortune to read...

[fas42]

19 minutes ago, marce said:

Maybe you should have studied EMC then over the last 30 years...

 

I work on the premise that I study what I need to, so that I can understand what elements of how the world works, , may impact or be relevant to the performance of something that's "not quite right" ... I found my tertiary education prepared me to consider that there may be a solution or understanding out there that I may not be immediately familiar with, which nicely fills the hole in my knowledge once I research it ... rather than belt the circuit into submission with a couple of sizeable tomes with the word EMC on the cover.

 

I could mutter something along the lines of "When your only tool is a hammer, everything looks like a nail" - but I won't ...

[AnotherSpin]

58 minutes ago, marce said:

That is probably the dumbest response I've had the misfortune to read...

 

It's okay, next life, maybe

[marce]

1 hour ago, fas42 said:

 

I work on the premise that I study what I need to, so that I can understand what elements of how the world works, , may impact or be relevant to the performance of something that's "not quite right" ... I found my tertiary education prepared me to consider that there may be a solution or understanding out there that I may not be immediately familiar with, which nicely fills the hole in my knowledge once I research it ... rather than belt the circuit into submission with a couple of sizeable tomes with the word EMC on the cover.

 

I could mutter something along the lines of "When your only tool is a hammer, everything looks like a nail" - but I won't ...

Another daft response...

You have been part of threads in the past where sites such as the one where Kieth Armstrong hangs out and other places where there is practical information so you don't have to delve into the likes of Henry Ott or Ralph Morrison.

Your last statement so much ignorance...

[marce]

The Luddites have taken over the thread...

A thread that was running pretty much on track for a while... With some information being put forward and discussed...

[AnotherSpin]

3 minutes ago, marce said:

The Luddites have taken over the thread...

A thread that was running pretty much on track for a while... With some information being put forward and discussed...

 

When people do not feel a solid ground under their feet they start naming and offending others, don't they?😀

[sandyk]

Quote

The question was is all linear power possible for a PC or streamer...

 

 

Yes it is, provided that you have adequate space to accommodate the large heatsinks needed to dissipate the extra heat.

 You would also need to use the less efficient linear regulators on the M/B and additional heatsinking for them as well,

 and need to use additional fan cooling.

[marce]

1 hour ago, sandyk said:

 

Yes it is, provided that you have adequate space to accommodate the large heatsinks needed to dissipate the extra heat.

 You would also need to use the less efficient linear regulators on the M/B and additional heatsinking for them as well,

 and need to use additional fan cooling.

No its not practical and would a have a negative effect on signal integrity.

You also have the distance the power has to travel, inductance at the required currents is a killer, that is why we use point of load power supplies.

So misinformed, the whole point is to improve circuitry not move back into the past and make things worse....

[marce]

1 hour ago, AnotherSpin said:

 

When people do not feel a solid ground under their feet they start naming and offending others, don't they?😀

Read my long and informed posts on this thread...

What have you contributed, a bit of hot air and some rubbish about knowledge.

[marce]

5 hours ago, AnotherSpin said:

 

So-called "knowledge" may be the dumbest factor in any area.

Read your own threads before you start commenting eh.

[sandyk]

39 minutes ago, marce said:

No its not practical and would a have a negative effect on signal integrity.

You also have the distance the power has to travel, inductance at the required currents is a killer, that is why we use point of load power supplies.

So misinformed, the whole point is to improve circuitry not move back into the past and make things worse....

 

  I didn't claim that would improve things, neither did I say that it was a good idea, just possible which was the original question.

 I also pointed out the main disadvantages.

 Most of the A.S. members are also into far slower motherboards and processors too, not that I agree with that philosophy though.

 Modern  Linear voltage regulators such as the low noise and wide bandwidth LT3045 series should also be usable in some areas.. 

 So YES, it IS possible, but not a good idea. 

I have also made it clear several times previously that I use SMPS power in my PC and only use additional VERY low noise Linear type power regulation (<4uV) for the peripherals such as internal SSDs, my internal BR writer and some USB ports.

[John Dyson]

Chiming in about 'low noise' (and low impedance) power.  In order to allow componentry to meet the apparent design performance (and performance ability) -- esp on power, and esp in cases where there are high frequencies involved, LAYOUT IS CRITICAL.  Careful design for grounding (not so much actual 'ground', but the signal/power common) is critical.   It is so easy for a design that can theoretically attenuate various kinds of noise into oblivion, will instead continue to let a lot of electrical noise through...   What is the problem?  screwed up grounding/signal&power commons.  Direct capacitative coupling is often not the major culprit, but it is coupling through 'grounding' and 'signal commons'.  (For example, a big circuit, sitting few 10ths of ohm & (10-50nh) above ground because of wiring/cold solder, esp with 'digital' in that circuit can cause interesting challenges until that grounding issue is fixed.)  Even though a few 100 nh doesnt' sound like a lot at audio frequencies, when mixing with fast switching currents, then the results start being noticed esp when mixed with non linearities elsewhere.  (Most of this is from memory -- haven't had to worry about such things for years, but you gotta be careful in this world when mixing digital and small signal analog.)

 

John

 

[AnotherSpin]

1 hour ago, marce said:

Read my long and informed posts on this thread...

What have you contributed, a bit of hot air and some rubbish about knowledge.

 

I read many things on this forum for many years. Do not remember anything particularly important or interesting from you. Will try to give more attention, but couldn't promise.

[Blackmorec]

22 hours ago, botrytis said:

 

Sure they have a common element - they all use power. My UHPLC, is more sensitive to ANY electrical issues compared to music production. 

So do railway locomotives...doesn’t mean they’re related in any way to audio systems. So let’s waste a minute talking about your UHPLC system.  What aspect of your UHPLC is so sensitive to electrical issues?  The auto sampler and injector? The pumping and metering system?  Perhaps the control electronics or detection system? Column oven maybe? 

What type of electrical issues seem to be a problem and what actually happens when they occur? Do the peaks change shape? The peak areas change? More baseline noise?  Or maybe the ms detector software assigns incorrect masses or abundances?

[botrytis]

1 hour ago, Blackmorec said:

So do railway locomotives...doesn’t mean they’re related in any way to audio systems. So let’s waste a minute talking about your UHPLC system.  What aspect of your UHPLC is so sensitive to electrical issues?  The auto sampler and injector? The pumping and metering system?  Perhaps the control electronics or detection system? Column oven maybe? 

What type of electrical issues seem to be a problem and what actually happens when they occur? Do the peaks change shape? The peak areas change? More baseline noise?  Or maybe the ms detector software assigns incorrect masses or abundances?

 

Please data is data whether it is music or any other. Why do people insist there is a difference between music and others when they don't do any testing and double blind studies to see if they can hear differences. I am trying to understand is all.

 

There can be differences in noise (which affects sensitivities, since we are talking about small voltage differences) with detectors.  

 

 

[AnotherSpin]

50 minutes ago, botrytis said:

 

Please data is data whether it is music or any other. Why do people insist there is a difference between music and others when they don't do any testing and double blind studies to see if they can hear differences. I am trying to understand is all.

 

There can be differences in noise (which affects sensitivities, since we are talking about small voltage differences) with detectors.  

 

 

 

One of many examples: I see your message which came to my notebook through wi-fi from router powered by SMPS. If I will change it to LPS the message will remain the same, but it may influence SQ of music which goes through the same router on a network between server and endpoint.

[kumakuma]

14 minutes ago, AnotherSpin said:

 

One of many examples: I see your message which came to my notebook through wi-fi from router powered by SMPS. If I will change it to LPS the message will remain the same, but it may influence SQ of music which goes through the same router on a network between server and endpoint.

 

Why?

[Blackmorec]

44 minutes ago, botrytis said:

 

Please data is data whether it is music or any other. Why do people insist there is a difference between music and others when they don't do any testing and double blind studies to see if they can hear differences. I am trying to understand is all.

 

There can be differences in noise (which affects sensitivities, since we are talking about small voltage differences) with detectors.  

 

 

Data is indeed data and I can assure you that it isn’t music, which has an altogether different physical form. In order to transform from data to music, several complex steps are necessary to convert numbers to voltages then on to pressure waves. Putting the data into the file involved several complex steps to perform the reverse....take the sound pressure waves and make them points representing numbers imprinted on a magnet or stored in etched silicon.   Depending on how well, how accurately and how pristinely each of those steps is performed co-depends the quality of the final output....either a recording or the recording played back. So data is data, but its quality and ability to create music depend on a number of other processes more or less unique to music, with the ability to change what’s in the file and how the final pressure waves sound when they meet our ears. 

[Blackmorec]

18 minutes ago, AnotherSpin said:

 

One of many examples: I see your message which came to my notebook through wi-fi from router powered by SMPS. If I will change it to LPS the message will remain the same, but it may influence SQ of music which goes through the same router on a network between server and endpoint.

Change ‘may’ to ‘will’ and we are in 100% agreement and I can write “never a truer word spoken” 🥴