mansr Posted July 31, 2019 Share Posted July 31, 2019 17 minutes ago, PeterSt said: The Clairixa possibly is the best USB 2 compliant cable around. Does it give a lower bit error rate than others? Link to comment
PeterSt Posted August 1, 2019 Share Posted August 1, 2019 32 minutes ago, fas42 said: I've done primitive experiments playing with shielding with some of the rigs over the years, and everything you do to alter the arrangement of this changes the sound. A more serious response (respecting yours, this time ) - Yes. I tried to do that too. Bought measurement gear for it - bought the most various shielding materials (for the various radiations types) for it. But 34 minutes ago, fas42 said: The goal should be to make the system completely impervious to doing this sort of mucking around; all I can say from my experience is: I guess so. Point is that the measurement devices will tell you that this is an undoable job. This is because this is not particularly about the shielding, but way more about the impeded radiation. People with NOS1a and Mach III will know that both contain a switch which is related to grounding and protective earthing respectively. I myself obviously have them too. And well, I still have no clue (that I can learn by heart) how to set which. This, while the differences in radiated noise are enormous, with the only 4 different possible settings of the both *IF* one would leave the power cords without change. Small problem: they can change everywhere for PE, polarity, dedicated mains ring and more. And that per device in the audio chain use. So radiation is the thang, but quite out of control and beyond "logic" that I can tell. Lush^3-e Lush^2 Blaxius^2.5 Ethernet^3 HDMI^2 XLR^2 XXHighEnd (developer) Phasure NOS1 24/768 Async USB DAC (manufacturer) Phasure Mach III Audio PC with Linear PSU (manufacturer) Orelino & Orelo MKII Speakers (designer/supplier) Link to comment
PeterSt Posted August 1, 2019 Share Posted August 1, 2019 5 minutes ago, mansr said: Does it give a lower bit error rate than others? Of course not. They all run error free for any amount of days. Unless "galvanic isolation" is involved. Then it becomes more tricky. But if all is right, still "forever". Lush^3-e Lush^2 Blaxius^2.5 Ethernet^3 HDMI^2 XLR^2 XXHighEnd (developer) Phasure NOS1 24/768 Async USB DAC (manufacturer) Phasure Mach III Audio PC with Linear PSU (manufacturer) Orelino & Orelo MKII Speakers (designer/supplier) Link to comment
PeterSt Posted August 1, 2019 Share Posted August 1, 2019 If you are really interested: 4 days and 6 hours in this case (with said isolation). John Dyson 1 Lush^3-e Lush^2 Blaxius^2.5 Ethernet^3 HDMI^2 XLR^2 XXHighEnd (developer) Phasure NOS1 24/768 Async USB DAC (manufacturer) Phasure Mach III Audio PC with Linear PSU (manufacturer) Orelino & Orelo MKII Speakers (designer/supplier) Link to comment
luisma Posted August 1, 2019 Share Posted August 1, 2019 1 hour ago, fas42 said: There will be never such a thing as a best USB cable - cables are just one of the areas where flaws in the reproduction chain integrity find it easiest to manifest; and the usual measurements of "performance" will never reveal themselves ... quick, give me a list of 10 things to measure which guarantees that a particular aircraft is safe to fly in ... . Unfortunately, measurists are mesmerised by the beauty of being able to read off some numbers - their confidence that all is right in the world has been confirmed. Back in the real world, people just want their audio to sound better; and so experiment, experiment, experiment ... Best cable? Will depend on the weaknesses in the particular rig - something like the Lush item makes it easy to vary the characteristics of the connecting link, and hence reveals the sensitivity of the connected components to the analogue qualities of the transmitted signal, and robustness in being able to reject interference and noise resulting from the nature of the link. Truth is, best cable is no cable - a direct, high integrity, fully shielded connection from source to DAC will always be best - every floppy, plug in link only introduces more complications, more potential for degrading factors to play a part. Although I believe cables could impact sonics (I'm not saying SQ), especially Soundstage and instrument position (EQ) I also believe some systems are more prone some are more impervious to these effects. My specific system seems to change little with these, I'm getting a lush^2 tomorrow replacing a Ghent jssg (not 360) (ups was supposed to deliver today) and after a week at least to be sure is settled I will report back. Link to comment
luisma Posted August 1, 2019 Share Posted August 1, 2019 1 hour ago, fas42 said: The Lush makes it easy to alter how shielding of the signal is configured, which alters the qualities of the noise and other interference seen by the receiving circuitry - I've done primitive experiments playing with shielding with some of the rigs over the years, and everything you do to alter the arrangement of this changes the sound. The goal should be to make the system completely impervious to doing this sort of mucking around; otherwise, it's just a form of DSP, tone controls. If someone just would have the secret Formula on how to make the system perfect to start with then Peter and others won't have a business making USB cables, your hypothetical statement might be valid as that, a hyphotesis yet completely unpractical. PeterSt 1 Link to comment
fas42 Posted August 1, 2019 Share Posted August 1, 2019 19 minutes ago, PeterSt said: A more serious response (respecting yours, this time ) - Yes. I tried to do that too. Bought measurement gear for it - bought the most various shielding materials (for the various radiations types) for it. But Yes, you went further into this than I ever did. 19 minutes ago, PeterSt said: all I can say from my experience is: I guess so. What I am always after is the sound of the recording alone; if I change something about the playback chain, or the environment that it's in, and the tonal qualities change, say, then I haven't succeeded in that goal. 19 minutes ago, PeterSt said: Point is that the measurement devices will tell you that this is an undoable job. This is because this is not particularly about the shielding, but way more about the impeded radiation. People with NOS1a and Mach III will know that both contain a switch which is related to grounding and protective earthing respectively. I myself obviously have them too. And well, I still have no clue (that I can learn by heart) how to set which. Every, every situation is different. I see it it, at times , like having a handful of elastic bands to tie it all together; as anyone who has tried to stabilise something with these beasties is probably familiar, this is an exercise in frustration - doomed to failure in the longer term. Only solid engineering at the right level of involvement with what's there, what has to be dealt with, is the 'right way' - a quick fix may prove a point, but is not a good solution, to leave indefinitely. 19 minutes ago, PeterSt said: This, while the differences in radiated noise are enormous, with the only 4 different possible settings of the both *IF* one would leave the power cords without change. Small problem: they can change everywhere for PE, polarity, dedicated mains ring and more. And that per device in the audio chain use. So radiation is the thang, but quite out of control and beyond "logic" that I can tell. It can always be brought under control, but radical re-engineering of everything, for the particular setup, may be necessary - the ol' ROI kicks in. My favoured approach is to get hold of gear that in intrinsic, raw form gets so much right, as is, and then do the extras that finish it off - being lazy by nature, and getting older, how could it be otherwise, . Link to comment
fas42 Posted August 1, 2019 Share Posted August 1, 2019 24 minutes ago, luisma said: If someone just would have the secret Formula on how to make the system perfect to start with then Peter and others won't have a business making USB cables, your hypothetical statement might be valid as that, a hyphotesis yet completely unpractical. The secret formula is understanding that every system that's assembled from bits without any extra thought is imperfect, from the POV of the subjective SQ; for some rigs, the one missing piece may be a "good enough" USB cable, say Peter's Lush; if one is happy to experiment and can do that at low cost, then the chances are good that at the very least significant progress can be made. I was extremely fortunate in that I lucked on a rig snapping into shape decades ago, and so know exactly what's possible; and can always pick the shortfall in what is being presented. The practical side comes in once you you have this "inner knowledge" - where is what I'm hearing 'wrong', and what are some of the likely suspects for causing this? luisma 1 Link to comment
luisma Posted August 1, 2019 Share Posted August 1, 2019 15 minutes ago, fas42 said: My favoured approach is to get hold of gear that in intrinsic, raw form gets so much right, as is I could not agree more with this brutal comment PeterSt 1 Link to comment
luisma Posted August 1, 2019 Share Posted August 1, 2019 3 minutes ago, fas42 said: I was extremely fortunate in that I lucked on a rig snapping into shape decades ago, My rig is not complete but 70 percent of it is raw perfect and transparent Link to comment
Kimo Posted August 1, 2019 Share Posted August 1, 2019 I hate usb cables. Then again, I think I am beginning to hate all cables. I run an Innuos Zenith II into a Linnenberg Telemann DAC, which does not upsample. I have been using a Belkin Gold cable with no complaints, but I couldn't let it be and I ordered an Audioquest Carbon. Of course, the Audioquest doesn't sound like the Belkin in some ways at the top and bottom of the frequency spectrum, but I cannot say it sounds better. I am starting to suspect that most audiophile cable is actually doing things wrong, since it has to do something. The cheap cable sounds more balanced. So, I am going to pick the Belkin Gold cable as the current baseline and probably send the AQ to Agon. Link to comment
PeterSt Posted August 1, 2019 Share Posted August 1, 2019 4 minutes ago, fas42 said: The secret formula is understanding that every system that's assembled from bits without any extra thought is imperfect, from the POV of the subjective SQ; In my view it is more difficult. Assembling a rig "with thought" requires knowledge which actually does not exist. So take me myself, literal "inventor" and pioneer of more than one quite important ICT (computer) aspect, from a time when even computer monitors did not exist yet. What do you expect me to think when "I am going to create a better USB cable". Well ?? Officially / normally / formally this can't exist. It is complete rubbish. However ... once I really start working on it, you can bet I can justify it myself. Wait ... to myself (avoiding the 2000+ posts). Now it is no rubbish any more. Not to me and it shouldn't be to anyone. This is not audiophile idiocy. But the physics of it comprise of a way long complicated chain (most of it was dealt with and challenged in the Lush^1 thread). Now if we can continue with the OP's question ... motberg 1 Lush^3-e Lush^2 Blaxius^2.5 Ethernet^3 HDMI^2 XLR^2 XXHighEnd (developer) Phasure NOS1 24/768 Async USB DAC (manufacturer) Phasure Mach III Audio PC with Linear PSU (manufacturer) Orelino & Orelo MKII Speakers (designer/supplier) Link to comment
fas42 Posted August 1, 2019 Share Posted August 1, 2019 58 minutes ago, PeterSt said: Assembling a rig "with thought" requires knowledge which actually does not exist. So take me myself, literal "inventor" and pioneer of more than one quite important ICT (computer) aspect, from a time when even computer monitors did not exist yet. What do you expect me to think when "I am going to create a better USB cable". Well ?? The knowledge does exist ... a number of individuals know that playback of recordings can be a spectacularly impressive experience; so any setup that fails to meet that standard is, yes, "flawed". This is a highly practical guide to moving in the right direction; the difficulty for many is understanding that what they call bad recordings is actually information that the system that they're listening to them on is damaging the SQ well beyond what is part of the recording - if they use the concept that 'difficult' recordings can tell them so much about the quality of the rig, then they will be well ahead. If one desires to 'invent' a part of the whole that makes the whole perform better then simple feedback from what you're hearing is all the data you need - if you can hear more into the recording, it's more comfortable to listen to even at elevated volumes, the whole presentation is richer, fuller, more convincing - then you're doing well ... To create a better cable, it needs to be closer to "no cable" - so you look at every area where the physical nature of it, in every possible way, could have some, unwanted, electrical impact. I have dressed how cables are set up literally thousands of times, with audible benefits over and over again - this is such effective tweaking, for close to zero cost - it's a waste of good gear not to get this sorted as well as one can. Link to comment
AnotherSpin Posted August 1, 2019 Share Posted August 1, 2019 5 hours ago, Kimo said: I hate usb cables. Then again, I think I am beginning to hate all cables. I run an Innuos Zenith II into a Linnenberg Telemann DAC, which does not upsample. I have been using a Belkin Gold cable with no complaints, but I couldn't let it be and I ordered an Audioquest Carbon. Of course, the Audioquest doesn't sound like the Belkin in some ways at the top and bottom of the frequency spectrum, but I cannot say it sounds better. I am starting to suspect that most audiophile cable is actually doing things wrong, since it has to do something. The cheap cable sounds more balanced. So, I am going to pick the Belkin Gold cable as the current baseline and probably send the AQ to Agon. I also tried expensive AQ cables (around $500 for a pair of short balanced interconnects) in my system recently and didn't like the sound - very analytical but not coherent and enough musical to me. Turned to much more accessible Supras. Again, tried two types of Supra balanced, even though the same brand the sound was different, imo. Was able to decide which stays after two weeks listening and comparing, not sooner. Link to comment
Popular Post One and a half Posted August 1, 2019 Popular Post Share Posted August 1, 2019 About two years ago after the Curious cables were available, the collection of USB cables were starting to add up, was not really satisfied with the sound from USB, the problem seemed to move about depending on the cable used. After using the ifi Micro USB3 (now discontinued), the noise and grunge was reduced markedly, especially after powering the Micro with an LPS. Here’s the list for the OP of cables that were tested. Nordost Blue HeavenCuriousOyaide Continental 5S USB Printer cableSAECAcoustic Revive splitifi Split cable The generic printer cable fared quite well, its downfall was a dampening of the sound stage and a bland presentation. Oyaide Continental cable being silver was great for rock music, but Jazz, Smooth Jazz went a little splashy in the treble. SAEC were very good on the INPUT side to the Micro USB3, but fared with dropped soundstage. The ifi Split cable was as cack as the Curious. The Curious cable made a mess of the soundstage, and treble was irritating. I tried two evaluations, separated by weeks, but the effect was the same and returned the cables. The Acoustic Revive split cable and the Nordost are the least destructive to the soundstage, would give the Nordost the edge on the soundstage but not much in it. The connections for the Nordost, Acoustic Revive and SAEC were tight and snug, a great quality connector. The Curious wasn’t so good, actually measured with a micrometer, no wonder it felt loose in the socket, was -0.x mm smaller in both directions compared to the others. So USB cables behave differently when the source and receiver are the same. The giveaway was the soundstage collapsing and mono like performance, fouling the timing that the DAC was processing. motberg and PeterSt 2 AS Profile Equipment List Say NO to MQA Link to comment
fas42 Posted August 1, 2019 Share Posted August 1, 2019 If you "hate all cables" then most likely you are sensitive to the degradation caused the lack of integrity of the link overall; the quality of the connectors and issues arising from the construction of the cable proper. Buying specialist audiophile cables is highly unlikely to solve this, because they almost never address the actual underlying weaknesses - they are, a "rubber band" solution. Many, many years ago I found the smartest solution is ditch these as a separate item - you hardwire everything in a sensible manner - and all the silliness then goes away ... Link to comment
Popular Post crenca Posted August 1, 2019 Popular Post Share Posted August 1, 2019 11 hours ago, musicguy said: @ Mansr, I understand usb requirements. Im talking about best usb audio sound. I hear a different between 4 of my cables. I think the industry is finally accepting usb cables sound different. musicguy The industry has always sold the idea that digital cables have a "sound", and many companies depended upon this marketing claims. These claims usually rest on false comparisons to analog signal paths, novel claims about "noise", and the like. As @mansrpoints out, when everything is in spec, there is no design reason why these claims can be true. Random audiophile reports (and yes, this forum is filled with them) might be good for business, but are almost useless when it comes to fidelity. Do yourself and your wallet a solid and learn a bit about the basics of digital communication... mansr, JezQ and marce 2 1 Hey MQA, if it is not all $voodoo$, show us the math! Link to comment
musicguy Posted August 1, 2019 Author Share Posted August 1, 2019 @One and a half A lot of what you here, is what i have experienced with my own usb cables. The pangea ag, sounded very slightly bloated but no sound stage and the treble was very reduced. No air to the sound. AQ forest just a bit smoother over a standard well made cable. WW starlight 7. Very good cable but lack bass. AQ cinnamon was the best overall sounding cable i have. Most balanced. I have been reading many post, Sorry I open this can of whoop ass on myself, AQ coffee, Cardas clear, Blackcat cables, Lush, Curios and nordost. There are so many usb cables now. Thats why i started this post. I am here to impove my sound. Not to get into a war about cables or if they even do anything. I have been in the high end side of audio for 35 years. Everything can effect sound. I now have a very good source mac mini. Now i hear that my usb cable is the weakest link. Im not looking for the most expensive cable either. The Silver usb from blackcat cables, always performs way above its price point. Link to comment
Blackmorec Posted August 1, 2019 Share Posted August 1, 2019 1 hour ago, crenca said: The industry has always sold the idea that digital cables have a "sound", and many companies depended upon this marketing claims. These claims usually rest on false comparisons to analog signal paths, novel claims about "noise", and the like. As @mansrpoints out, when everything is in spec, there is no design reason why these claims can be true. Random audiophile reports (and yes, this forum is filled with them) might be good for business, but are almost useless when it comes to fidelity. Do yourself and your wallet a solid and learn a bit about the basics of digital communication... 2 questions: 1. For signals moving through a cable, how does a digital signal differ from an analog signal; looked at from the physics standpoint? 2. What are the physical attributes of noise in the context of audio systems and cables? Link to comment
AnotherSpin Posted August 1, 2019 Share Posted August 1, 2019 1 hour ago, One and a half said: About two years ago after the Curious cables were available, the collection of USB cables were starting to add up, was not really satisfied with the sound from USB, the problem seemed to move about depending on the cable used. After using the ifi Micro USB3 (now discontinued), the noise and grunge was reduced markedly, especially after powering the Micro with an LPS. Here’s the list for the OP of cables that were tested. Nordost Blue HeavenCuriousOyaide Continental 5S USB Printer cableSAECAcoustic Revive splitifi Split cable The generic printer cable fared quite well, its downfall was a dampening of the sound stage and a bland presentation. Oyaide Continental cable being silver was great for rock music, but Jazz, Smooth Jazz went a little splashy in the treble. SAEC were very good on the INPUT side to the Micro USB3, but fared with dropped soundstage. The ifi Split cable was as cack as the Curious. The Curious cable made a mess of the soundstage, and treble was irritating. I tried two evaluations, separated by weeks, but the effect was the same and returned the cables. The Acoustic Revive split cable and the Nordost are the least destructive to the soundstage, would give the Nordost the edge on the soundstage but not much in it. The connections for the Nordost, Acoustic Revive and SAEC were tight and snug, a great quality connector. The Curious wasn’t so good, actually measured with a micrometer, no wonder it felt loose in the socket, was -0.x mm smaller in both directions compared to the others. So USB cables behave differently when the source and receiver are the same. The giveaway was the soundstage collapsing and mono like performance, fouling the timing that the DAC was processing. Again, it may be dependent very much on combination of elements in a whole audio set. I was using Nordost Blue Heaven USB for several years, it was ok. After UpTone regen was added, it was still ok. After guys at UpTone updated regen from "green" to "amber" version they said amber sounds great with Supra USB. I had such somewhere and it was easy to try and compare. Green Regen worked better with Nordost, amber was better with Supra. Amber+Supra was better than green+Nordost. Nordost USB was three or four times more expensive than Supra USB. Link to comment
AnotherSpin Posted August 1, 2019 Share Posted August 1, 2019 56 minutes ago, musicguy said: @One and a half A lot of what you here, is what i have experienced with my own usb cables. The pangea ag, sounded very slightly bloated but no sound stage and the treble was very reduced. No air to the sound. AQ forest just a bit smoother over a standard well made cable. WW starlight 7. Very good cable but lack bass. AQ cinnamon was the best overall sounding cable i have. Most balanced. I have been reading many post, Sorry I open this can of whoop ass on myself, AQ coffee, Cardas clear, Blackcat cables, Lush, Curios and nordost. There are so many usb cables now. Thats why i started this post. I am here to impove my sound. Not to get into a war about cables or if they even do anything. I have been in the high end side of audio for 35 years. Everything can effect sound. I now have a very good source mac mini. Now i hear that my usb cable is the weakest link. Im not looking for the most expensive cable either. The Silver usb from blackcat cables, always performs way above its price point. It was stated here more than once, anyway - try different usb ports on your mini. I found out the the first one from a side (one which is most distant from the center of back plate) sounds better than others. Also, If other usb ports used simultaneously with the one to DAC it degrades SQ. Link to comment
mansr Posted August 1, 2019 Share Posted August 1, 2019 9 hours ago, PeterSt said: Of course not. They all run error free for any amount of days. Unless "galvanic isolation" is involved. Then it becomes more tricky. But if all is right, still "forever". Then how can you claim yours to be better than another? Link to comment
marce Posted August 1, 2019 Share Posted August 1, 2019 1 hour ago, Blackmorec said: 2 questions: 1. For signals moving through a cable, how does a digital signal differ from an analog signal; looked at from the physics standpoint? 2. What are the physical attributes of noise in the context of audio systems and cables? Its not the signal as such its the information carried in the signal, this is where analogue and digital differ. In analogue the signal is the information a time varying waveform, noise is superimposed on the signal and becomes part of the signal especially noise in the same frequency range as the signal. Digital carries the analogue signal as packets of information in binary format, noise can be superimposed on the signal but does not become part of the analogue information and within easily achived tolerances the noise will not alter the transmitted information. Teresa 1 Link to comment
JanRSmit Posted August 1, 2019 Share Posted August 1, 2019 2 hours ago, crenca said: Do yourself and your wallet a solid and learn a bit about the basics of digital communication... So, enlighten us with some basics relevant for computer-dac communication. For one i know that with usb cable use between computer and large format printers, the USB cable quality does matter. Teresa 1 Link to comment
JanRSmit Posted August 1, 2019 Share Posted August 1, 2019 7 minutes ago, marce said: Its not the signal as such its the information carried in the signal, this is where analogue and digital differ. In analogue the signal is the information a time varying waveform, noise is superimposed on the signal and becomes part of the signal especially noise in the same frequency range as the signal. Digital carries the analogue signal as packets of information in binary format, noise can be superimposed on the signal but does not become part of the analogue information and within easily achived tolerances the noise will not alter the transmitted information. So , to understand what you are saying, in the case of digital info, noise (which is always present) will not somehow interfere if it stays below a certain level. Then the questions i have: How is this achieved in essence? does the noise spectrum make a difference? Is this true also for computer to dac communication? How do i as enduser know the always present noise is not interfering? Link to comment
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