Rexp Posted July 8, 2019 Author Share Posted July 8, 2019 1 hour ago, Paul R said: Not what I said. I said that reasonable conclusions as to how those speakers sound can not be drawn from the videos. In specific conclusions used to make purchasing decisions. I gave reasons why that is so. I did not tell anyone what they hear. If you don't agree, don't try to make out I am bullying anyone by vague comments like that. At least I am not trying to lead them down a path to bankruptcy. That is my opinion yes, but one based upon years of audio research and listening. You can heed it or not, just as you will. But it is at least as valid as your opinion, and much more likely to avoid someone missing out on a speaker system they may really like or worse, buying one they think they will like but is really not to their taste at all. You are welcome to hear what you hear, and spend your money how you see fit. My Mom used to say that a fool and his money were soon parted. That saying would probably prove out true for someone who makes expensive speaker purchasing decisions based upon a you tube video like those two. And yes, that is *also* my opinion. You can't audition speakers via youtube, not sure why you're stating the obvious. Link to comment
STC Posted July 8, 2019 Share Posted July 8, 2019 19 hours ago, 4est said: Yes I read that, and your "did you even read" implies that you think there is some self evident truth in it. I do not see this as that simple. 1 hour ago, semente said: You are spreading delusion... Don't. Pardon my ignorance but can you guys explain why it is possible to record a live performance and replay them through the high end system where you supposedly create the 3D sound via stereophonic playback; yet it will never be accurate representation of the systems playback captured with microphones at the ear canal? You are essentially recording the exact waves that enters your canals at the listening location. ST My Ambiophonics System with Virtual Concert Hall Ambience Link to comment
Popular Post semente Posted July 8, 2019 Popular Post Share Posted July 8, 2019 On 7/6/2019 at 5:44 AM, STC said: What better way you could do that before visiting the dealer? Watch the pictures of the speakers? Read a third party opinion of the speakers sound. Listening to the speakers themselves? The Youtube is not the final arbiter of the SQ. It is just a small starting point and those who cared about reproduction by now would realize that room acoustics play a bigger part in the sound quality than the speakers themselves. I use measurements for shortlisting. esldude and Paul R 2 "Science draws the wave, poetry fills it with water" Teixeira de Pascoaes HQPlayer Desktop / Mac mini → Intona 7054 → RME ADI-2 DAC FS (DSD256) Link to comment
RickyV Posted July 8, 2019 Share Posted July 8, 2019 4 hours ago, STC said: Pardon my ignorance but can you guys explain why it is possible to record a live performance and replay them through the high end system where you supposedly create the 3D sound via stereophonic playback; yet it will never be accurate representation of the systems playback captured with microphones at the ear canal? You are essentially recording the exact waves that enters your canals at the listening location. 1: you will record the speakers plus room acoustics. 2: quantity of mic. 3: quality of recording system. All degrading the original signal Meitner ma1 v2 dac, Sovereign preamp and power amp, DIY speakers, scan speak illuminator. Raal Requisite VM-1a -> SR-1a with Accurate Sound convolution. Under development: NUC7i7dnbe, Euphony Stylus, Qobuz. Modded Buffalo-fiber-EtherRegen, DC3- Isoregen, Lush^2 Link to comment
STC Posted July 8, 2019 Share Posted July 8, 2019 46 minutes ago, semente said: I use measurements for shortlisting. Speakers are the only thing that you should never buy based on measurements. 9 minutes ago, RickyV said: 1: you will record the speakers plus room acoustics. 2: quantity of mic. 3: quality of recording system. All degrading the original signal 1) your ears too pick up the same. No difference. 2) quality of the hearing - makes no difference. It affects all the recordings. Did you mean quantity? 3) the quality rec equip degrades all recordings equally so it doesn’t matter. ST My Ambiophonics System with Virtual Concert Hall Ambience Link to comment
RickyV Posted July 8, 2019 Share Posted July 8, 2019 13 minutes ago, STC said: 1) your ears too pick up the same. No difference. 2) quality of the hearing - makes no difference. It affects all the recordings. Did you mean quantity? 3) the quality rec equip degrades all recordings equally so it doesn’t matter. Yes but you have to play it back a second time with different speakers in a different room. Extra coloration. And the two YouTube clips have different systems and especially the rooms are probably different. 25 minutes ago, STC said: 1) your ears too pick up the same. No difference. Listen to your favorite track and recond it at the same time. Then play back the recording. I do not think it will sound the same. Meitner ma1 v2 dac, Sovereign preamp and power amp, DIY speakers, scan speak illuminator. Raal Requisite VM-1a -> SR-1a with Accurate Sound convolution. Under development: NUC7i7dnbe, Euphony Stylus, Qobuz. Modded Buffalo-fiber-EtherRegen, DC3- Isoregen, Lush^2 Link to comment
STC Posted July 8, 2019 Share Posted July 8, 2019 1 minute ago, RickyV said: Yes but you have to play it back a second time with different speakers in a different room. Extra coloration. Yes. The coloration applies to all and good headphones are quite neutral. Remember, We are talking about sound recorded at ear canals. 1 minute ago, RickyV said: And the two YouTube clips have different systems and especially the rooms are probably different. Of course they are different. The ambiance reverbs gives you the clue. While Peter’s videos in OP used Sony video mic ( I have the details somewhere and will try to get the mic details.), but mine would be consistent as it was recorded with in ear microphones. It captures exactly the same soundwaves that enters the ears and would sound almost identical during playback with headphones. Just buy one pair of those and record and listen to the recording. Sometimes, you would fool yourself not knowing whether you are listening to the headphones or your speakers. 1 minute ago, RickyV said: Listen to your favorite track and recond it at the same time. Then play back the recording. I do not think it will sound the same. If you are talking about binaural recording of the playback then it is not going to sound the same when played over the loudspeakers. They are meant to listen with headphones as the object of making this recordings is to capture the sound as heard by you at your LP. If you are going to use a ms mic then you can forget about comparing the system. Basically, you are just listening to the recording again. Even phone recordings now is becoming much clearer and no longer sounds like a recording of music playing in the room with the noise cancellation technology. ST My Ambiophonics System with Virtual Concert Hall Ambience Link to comment
semente Posted July 8, 2019 Share Posted July 8, 2019 1 hour ago, STC said: Speakers are the only thing that you should never buy based on measurements. I buy used so I have little alternative. Measurements help me narrow down the number of speakers worth listening to. "Science draws the wave, poetry fills it with water" Teixeira de Pascoaes HQPlayer Desktop / Mac mini → Intona 7054 → RME ADI-2 DAC FS (DSD256) Link to comment
Popular Post Paul R Posted July 8, 2019 Popular Post Share Posted July 8, 2019 7 hours ago, Rexp said: You can't audition speakers via youtube, not sure why you're stating the obvious. Then what is your reason for listening to speakers and trying to discern sonic differences between them on you tube? esldude, jabbr, Summit and 1 other 1 1 2 Anyone who considers protocol unimportant has never dealt with a cat DAC. Robert A. Heinlein Link to comment
fas42 Posted July 9, 2019 Share Posted July 9, 2019 9 hours ago, Paul R said: Then what is your reason for listening to speakers and trying to discern sonic differences between them on you tube? What one listens for on a YouTube clip are any signs that the playback is getting any obvious areas of SQ wrong, and all the giveaways that what one is listening to is a recording of a hifi system. As against live music making. The better examples of sound system replay in YT videos don't immediately draw your attention to the fact that you're listening to sounds coming from a stereo - you know how in movies when the characters are supposed to be listening to playback of something, the makers make sure you know this is the case by making the sound 'tinny', unnatural - well, that's exactly what one doesn't want in the YT clip ... Link to comment
Rexp Posted July 9, 2019 Author Share Posted July 9, 2019 9 hours ago, Paul R said: Then what is your reason for listening to speakers and trying to discern sonic differences between them on you tube? It is not about discernimg various sonic differences, it is about listening to two systems and finding one delivers the music and the other doesn't. Link to comment
STC Posted July 9, 2019 Share Posted July 9, 2019 10 hours ago, semente said: I buy used so I have little alternative. Measurements help me narrow down the number of speakers worth listening to. Most likely Maggie and Sound Lab will never make to your list. The most important criteria for me is the tonal accuracy. The lows can be supplemented with subwoofers. Freq response measurement can never tell the preferred tonal characteristic. ST My Ambiophonics System with Virtual Concert Hall Ambience Link to comment
Ralf11 Posted July 9, 2019 Share Posted July 9, 2019 Why? Used Maggies are all over the place. And Wendell does NOT want you to use subs... Link to comment
STC Posted July 9, 2019 Share Posted July 9, 2019 24 minutes ago, Rexp said: It is not about discernimg various sonic differences, it is about listening to two systems and finding one delivers the music and the other doesn't. Most of the audiophiles at one point of time would have captured their system via a mobile phone or dedicated microphones. Some would chose to put when in their opinion they sounded good and most ( correctly) would not share them because it will not sound like how you heard them playing in the room. Some will go out and get the "right" microphones so that the recordings can sound as good as possible. What is important in the youtubes videos is the audio and not the video. No audiophiles would pay attention to the video but I am beginning to feel that can be very wrong as some seemed to be so easily influenced with the video to the extend teaching how to judge the video without watching the video because that supposedly would influence the sound. My reason for using youtube is, it is the easiest way to share you audio recording with reasonable sound quality. Furthermore, copyright issues limits the choice of other platform where you can make a public achieve of your own progress. I will use audio recording instead of video or YT to avoid some confusion to explain this point further. The recording of your system playback can never sound "good" as heard by you at LP simply because you are no longer capturing ONE sound as in the original event or recording. See here. ST My Ambiophonics System with Virtual Concert Hall Ambience Link to comment
Popular Post esldude Posted July 9, 2019 Popular Post Share Posted July 9, 2019 1 hour ago, Rexp said: It is not about discernimg various sonic differences, it is about listening to two systems and finding one delivers the music and the other doesn't. And delivering the music wouldn't have anything to do with sonic differences, or microphones that deliver the music or not? This is a distinction without a difference. Paul R and semente 2 And always keep in mind: Cognitive biases, like seeing optical illusions are a sign of a normally functioning brain. We all have them, it’s nothing to be ashamed about, but it is something that affects our objective evaluation of reality. Link to comment
sandyk Posted July 9, 2019 Share Posted July 9, 2019 8 minutes ago, STC said: Most of the audiophiles at one point of time would have captured their system via a mobile phone or dedicated microphones I don't personally know of a single Australian Audiophile who would even bother doing this. They know that they will never be able to capture anything that sounds as good as what they are able to hear directly from a well optimised system, sitting in " the sweet spot", even if they had available very high performance A/D converters and microphones. A few however may have experimented with something like trying to record a Thunderstorm back in the days of high performance Cassette decks such as a Nakamichi, or a DAT recorder. As for using a mobile phone, they are fairly recent devices, and have major limitations in this area. Some may use one to try and make bootleg recordings of a Concert they attended, but very few will ever come remotely close to a proper recording of the session by experienced Recording Engineers. How a Digital Audio file sounds, or a Digital Video file looks, is governed to a large extent by the Power Supply area. All that Identical Checksums gives is the possibility of REGENERATING the file to close to that of the original file. PROFILE UPDATED 13-11-2020 Link to comment
STC Posted July 9, 2019 Share Posted July 9, 2019 5 minutes ago, sandyk said: They know that they will never be able to capture anything that sounds as good as what they are able to hear directly from a well optimised system, sitting in " the sweet spot", even if they had available very high performance A/D converters and microphones. Do do they know why? ST My Ambiophonics System with Virtual Concert Hall Ambience Link to comment
sandyk Posted July 9, 2019 Share Posted July 9, 2019 Unlike some, they know their limitations as amateurs in that area. Most Aussie Audiophiles would never even consider a mobile phone as a suitable tool for doing this either. semente 1 How a Digital Audio file sounds, or a Digital Video file looks, is governed to a large extent by the Power Supply area. All that Identical Checksums gives is the possibility of REGENERATING the file to close to that of the original file. PROFILE UPDATED 13-11-2020 Link to comment
sandyk Posted July 9, 2019 Share Posted July 9, 2019 2 hours ago, Rexp said: It is not about discernimg various sonic differences, it is about listening to two systems and finding one delivers the music and the other doesn't. I repeat. It's NOT possible to do this using 128kbps .aac audio, and to do this properly you need to set up both lots of speakers correctly in the same room, as all speakers have their own special requirements for optimal performance, including distances from walls, toe in, distances between them, tweeters roughly in line with the ears at listening chair etc. How a Digital Audio file sounds, or a Digital Video file looks, is governed to a large extent by the Power Supply area. All that Identical Checksums gives is the possibility of REGENERATING the file to close to that of the original file. PROFILE UPDATED 13-11-2020 Link to comment
Ralf11 Posted July 9, 2019 Share Posted July 9, 2019 it is about listening to two systems and finding one delivers the music and the other doesn't, which - of course - is based on various discernable sonic differences... Link to comment
STC Posted July 9, 2019 Share Posted July 9, 2019 7 minutes ago, sandyk said: repeat. It's NOT possible to do this using 128kbps .aac audio, Fair enough. But what if I record 128kps playback with hirez mic? ST My Ambiophonics System with Virtual Concert Hall Ambience Link to comment
STC Posted July 9, 2019 Share Posted July 9, 2019 Peter’s videos were made in mostly similar rooms. This is about how well a system sounds and not an individual component. And not surprising, most audio playback beginning to sound alike with slight difference in tonal, bass and treble because that’s the truth. After you reach a point with stereo setup there is practically very little difference between on system and another except the three factors I mentioned above and how loud a good system can go. ST My Ambiophonics System with Virtual Concert Hall Ambience Link to comment
sandyk Posted July 9, 2019 Share Posted July 9, 2019 4 minutes ago, STC said: Peter’s videos were made in mostly similar rooms. This is about how well a system sounds and not an individual component. And not surprising, most audio playback beginning to sound alike with slight difference in tonal, bass and treble because that’s the truth. After you reach a point with stereo setup there is practically very little difference between on system and another except the three factors I mentioned above and how loud a good system can go. Mostly similar rooms is not good enough and you have to set them up correctly as I mentioned. Anybody that believes that there is practically very little difference between one system and another probably also believes in the Tooth Fairy and Santa Clause. I have heard quite a few systems in well optimised rooms, using in some cases gear worth >Au $100K, and there is usually marked differences even between DACs valued at $8K or closer to $30K, (e.g. Bricasti M1 and a Gryphon Kalliope) and the same applies to speakers from $30K to $50K How a Digital Audio file sounds, or a Digital Video file looks, is governed to a large extent by the Power Supply area. All that Identical Checksums gives is the possibility of REGENERATING the file to close to that of the original file. PROFILE UPDATED 13-11-2020 Link to comment
STC Posted July 9, 2019 Share Posted July 9, 2019 4 minutes ago, sandyk said: Mostly similar rooms is not good enough and you have to set them up correctly as I mentioned. Anybody that believes that there is practically very little difference between one system and another probably also believes in the Tooth Fairy and Santa Clause. I have heard quite a few systems in well optimised rooms, using in some cases gear worth >Au $100K, and there is usually marked differences even between DACs valued at $8K or closer to $30K, (e.g. Bricasti M1 and a Gryphon Kalliope) and the same applies to speakers from $30K to $50K 24 minutes ago, STC said: Fair enough. But what if I record 128kps playback with hirez mic? Make up your mind. Is 128 still relevant because you were obsessed with the low fidelity of YT with your arguments and now already moved to setup and others. No no sensible dealer would setup a system in room so that it would sound bad. The objective is to setup them so that it sounds as good as possible in a given room. i think I have already stated the reason in the other thread and if you think you show where what I said is wrong then I guess there is nothing new I can add to this thread. ST My Ambiophonics System with Virtual Concert Hall Ambience Link to comment
sandyk Posted July 9, 2019 Share Posted July 9, 2019 1 hour ago, STC said: Fair enough. But what if I record 128kps playback with hirez mic? Still the same answer. 128kbps is NOT adequate with ANY microphone, and it won't matter too much how wideband the microphone is at such a pathetically low bit rate. Try for example recording a 0 to 20kHz tone sweep from suitable speakers and recording it at say 24/96 with both types of microphones, then convert it to 128kbps .aac and see what the measured level is when played back from both the original high res recording and the 128kbps version. ( you may need to convert it back to .wav again to measure it with an audio editing program) . How a Digital Audio file sounds, or a Digital Video file looks, is governed to a large extent by the Power Supply area. All that Identical Checksums gives is the possibility of REGENERATING the file to close to that of the original file. PROFILE UPDATED 13-11-2020 Link to comment
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