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Speakers are least important


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1 hour ago, PeterSt said:

So suppose you sweep the speaker; suppose it shows relatively severe THD in the lower regions, like 30Hz showing at 60Hz as well (or even more than the 30Hz itself). 31Hz shows as 62Hz. 32 as 64. Etc., until the distortion is so low that the base tone overwhelms the 2nd order sufficiently and we would not regard it audible distortion (like 20Hz should be inaudible because no audible 2nd order 40Hz shows).

 

I never tried it, but unless you look at the sweep in real time, the result will just be a following of the swept frequencies and the distortion products will have been "overwritten" by the base tone in order (like 60Hz base will make the 60Hz 2nd of 30Hz invisible).

 

Wrong ?

 

I think that is correct, but it would be an artefact of the measuring method. Instead of a sine sweep a better method to determine FR would be to use a white noise signal and do an FFT of the recorded speaker output. I think that should show any harmonic distortion products in the frequency spectrum (unless *every* frequency has exactly the same harmonic distortion products proportional to its base frequency response, which seems unrealistic if not impossible).  
 

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37 minutes ago, Abtr said:

I think that is correct, but it would be an artefact of the measuring method.

 

Oh, true !

But Frequency Response is just that. That does not incorporate FFTs and the like.

So, sure, if I tune a speaker, it starts with frequency response, then THD (which latter nobody really does if you ask me) and lastly it is a mix of both. I approach a speaker like a DAC or an Amp.

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21 minutes ago, PeterSt said:

Oh, true !

But Frequency Response is just that. That does not incorporate FFTs and the like.

So, sure, if I tune a speaker, it starts with frequency response, then THD (which latter nobody really does if you ask me) and lastly it is a mix of both. I approach a speaker like a DAC or an Amp.

Using a FFT on recorded white noise is just another method to determine FR. I use the below measuring software which provides both a sine sweep and the white noise method to measure FR:

 

https://www.bol.com/nl/p/dayton-audio-omnimic-v2-computer-based-precision-room-measurement-system/9200000073662141/

 

 

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12 minutes ago, Abtr said:

Using a FFT on recorded white noise is just another method to determine FR. I use the below measuring software

 

OK ... Obviously I did not try that software, but even if it white noise, I don't see how a response on e.g. 64Hz would not mask the 32Hz 2nd harmonic, assumed that this harmonic is not higher than the base on 64Hz.

 

This all works when you put up a single test signal (like for 32Hz or for 64Hz). I probably miss the point somewhere. Do you perhaps have an old screenshot so I can look at it and see what you mean ? (and discuss maybe)

Lush^3-e      Lush^2      Blaxius^2.5      Ethernet^3     HDMI^2     XLR^2

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Phasure NOS1 24/768 Async USB DAC (manufacturer)

Phasure Mach III Audio PC with Linear PSU (manufacturer)

Orelino & Orelo MKII Speakers (designer/supplier)

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1 hour ago, PeterSt said:

OK ... Obviously I did not try that software, but even if it white noise, I don't see how a response on e.g. 64Hz would not mask the 32Hz 2nd harmonic, assumed that this harmonic is not higher than the base on 64Hz.

 

This all works when you put up a single test signal (like for 32Hz or for 64Hz). I probably miss the point somewhere. Do you perhaps have an old screenshot so I can look at it and see what you mean ? (and discuss maybe)

White noise is a random signal having equal intensity at all frequencies. So the intensity of any harmonic frequency produced by a speaker will be added to the intensity of that frequency already present in the white noise, thus showing a peak at that frequency in the FFT spectrum.

 

I must say that I never encountered such peaks; IME a white noise + FFT based FR generally looks identical to a sine sweep based FR. So I don't have example screen shots of that.

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4 hours ago, marce said:

If you need a high end system to hear the emotion in music then your not listening to the music! In fact your probably in the wrong hobby/pastime.

 

You can replace any component in that high end system and still hear the emotion in the music. But, within reason, the speakers are always going to have the most effect on the sound. ✌️

Anyone who considers protocol unimportant has never dealt with a cat DAC.

Robert A. Heinlein

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1 hour ago, Abtr said:

White noise is a random signal having equal intensity at all frequencies. So the intensity of any harmonic frequency produced by a speaker will be added to the intensity of that frequency already present in the white noise, thus showing a peak at that frequency in the FFT spectrum.

 

I must say that I never encountered such peaks; IME a white noise + FFT based FR generally looks identical to a sine sweep based FR. So I don't have example screen shots of that.

 

I am am wondering if it is not a matter of detail? At the micro level you are correct in saying that the FR will show any differences. However at the macro level two different speakers both rated as flat between 20-20hz are are going to sound different. The difference between say, an electrostatic and cone speaker will dominate, even if the differences will show in a more detailed or more exact measurement of frequency response. Assuming matched SPLs and so on of course. The efficiency f a speaker may dominate the “sound” as well.

 

Anyone who considers protocol unimportant has never dealt with a cat DAC.

Robert A. Heinlein

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2 hours ago, Paul R said:

I am am wondering if it is not a matter of detail? At the micro level you are correct in saying that the FR will show any differences. However at the macro level two different speakers both rated as flat between 20-20hz are are going to sound different. The difference between say, an electrostatic and cone speaker will dominate, even if the differences will show in a more detailed or more exact measurement of frequency response. Assuming matched SPLs and so on of course. The efficiency f a speaker may dominate the “sound” as well.

 

You may be right. With the Dayton Audio software (and calibrated microphone) the highest level of detail still applies 1/24 octave smoothing to a FR graph which may obscure harmonic peaks. One could digitally record white noise playback from a speaker and do a high resolution FFT on the result with software such as Audacity.

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12 hours ago, PeterSt said:

 

Oh, true !

But Frequency Response is just that. That does not incorporate FFTs and the like.

So, sure, if I tune a speaker, it starts with frequency response, then THD (which latter nobody really does if you ask me) and lastly it is a mix of both. I approach a speaker like a DAC or an Amp.

 

I find most speakers have intrinsic distortion which is not a problem - apart from low bass, where the combination of the physics and how sensitive human hearing is to different frequencies combines to make it extremely difficult, and expensive, to produce subjectively relatively distortion free very low frequencies. Which is why I use the term, "fake bass" - many rigs stink of this, and it has nothing to do with realistic sound.

 

A simple technique I have used - the ears are a marvelous measuring tool, ^_^ - is to feed frequency and amplitude varying sweeps of sine waves into the units - and just listen. It's trivially obvious where there is a problem, the purity of what you're hearing goes into a nosedive - I have two sets of low cost, name brand PC speaker monitors here, one looks a lot more impressive than the other. Trouble is, the flashy one is junk - the audible mess that the sine waves provoke gives the game away - the other unit does quite excellently until really high levels of output.

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11 hours ago, Paul R said:

 

You can replace any component in that high end system and still hear the emotion in the music. But, within reason, the speakers are always going to have the most effect on the sound. ✌️

 

I am sorry, I have to disagree.  When one hears a music which appeals to him, the mind reacts with that music and will attribute whatever feeling it wants with the music.  It has nothing to do with the gear, it does not matter when you hear it live, through Hi-end equipment or from radio.  

 

However, a reasonable system with proper placement will surely produce music in a better quality, whether one can feel the emotion in the music has nothing to do with the gear but one's own mind. 

MetalNuts

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I find there is a classic bell curve in how well music that you tune into strongly comes across as a subjectively satisfying experience, with respect to the 'competence' of the system - with a 'rubbishy' device, say a cheap transistor radio, there is so much missing that the mind fills in a huge amount of the gaps, and in so doing ignores most of the obvious flaws - you enjoy having your memory cells tickled, to recall what you know well.

 

As one progresses up the capability chart, you hear so much more of what is actually on the recording - but the low level stuff is badly rendered, and hence disturbing - this is the classic audiophile zone where there are almost no "good recordings", :D. ... You are now at the top of the bell curve in terms of not liking recorded music that used to give you enjoyment ...

 

Once you progress past this irritating level of halfway house competence, :), the music starts to come back again; your emotions are ever more tickled, from becoming aware of how fabulous the recordings actually are; appreciating what was actually captured at that time of the music making.

 

If one is trapped somewhere high in this curve of not liking what you're hearing, well, this is not a pleasant place - my advice is to go either backwards or forwards in the competence of the gear, to restore greater levels of satisfaction from the listening, ^_^.

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2 hours ago, fas42 said:

You are now at the top of the bell curve in terms of not liking recorded music that used to give you enjoyment ..

 

Then there is rocketing off the top into open air by declaring unwillingness to hit the off switch and go out because live music isn't very good compared to recordings.  That no longer give you enjoyment. 

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2 hours ago, Paul R said:

 

It is absolutely true, and the answer is yes.  

Have you? 

 

You can hear the emotion in music over an elevator speaker. 

 

-Paul

 

 

Well yes, I even owned a high end audio store for a few years. Used to stock your Harbeth speakers which I do consider to be high end. 

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12 hours ago, Abtr said:

 

You may be right. With the Dayton Audio software (and calibrated microphone) the highest level of detail still applies 1/24 octave smoothing to a FR graph which may obscure harmonic peaks. One could digitally record white noise playback from a speaker and do a high resolution FFT on the result with software such as Audacity.

Try REW.  It will do sweeps and show distortion very clearly.  Sweeps are better for finding distortion than white noise.  White noise can somewhat identify basically the response.  In rooms you need to window for better results and sweeps accomplish this better than white or pink noise.  

 

 

And always keep in mind: Cognitive biases, like seeing optical illusions are a sign of a normally functioning brain. We all have them, it’s nothing to be ashamed about, but it is something that affects our objective evaluation of reality. 

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9 minutes ago, Rexp said:

Well yes, I even owned a high end audio store for a few years. Used to stock your Harbeth speakers which I do consider to be high end. 

 

But you think you can only hear the emotion in music on a very well crafted high end system?  Perhaps I simply misunderstood you? 

 

We often don't agree on things, such as RAM in a music server having an audible effect, but this is rather basic and I was surprised to see any disagreement at all. 

 

-Paul 

 

P.S. I do love my little Harbeths. But I also love the Maggies. And the ancient Advents. :)

 

 

Anyone who considers protocol unimportant has never dealt with a cat DAC.

Robert A. Heinlein

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4 hours ago, MetalNuts said:

 

I am sorry, I have to disagree.  When one hears a music which appeals to him, the mind reacts with that music and will attribute whatever feeling it wants with the music.  It has nothing to do with the gear, it does not matter when you hear it live, through Hi-end equipment or from radio.  

 

However, a reasonable system with proper placement will surely produce music in a better quality, whether one can feel the emotion in the music has nothing to do with the gear but one's own mind. 

Wrong. Good high end gear presents the low level details in the music, like piano keys being gently caressed that creates the emotional impact. 

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5 minutes ago, Paul R said:

 

But you think you can only hear the emotion in music on a very well crafted high end system?  Perhaps I simply misunderstood you? 

 

We often don't agree on things, such as RAM in a music server having an audible effect, but this is rather basic and I was surprised to see any disagreement at all. 

 

-Paul 

 

P.S. I do love my little Harbeths. But I also love the Maggies. And the ancient Advents. :)

 

 

You have a turntable Paul so I also appreciate your opinion if not agree, 

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I think the emotion of music gets thru some pretty terrible gear.  But I wouldn't say no gear can get in the way and make it tough.  

 

Like the built in speakers in many of these current lower priced super thin flat screen TV's.  Oh my how can they be so bad.  I've enjoyed music over a 7 transistor pocket radio with AM broadcast.  Those thin TVs aren't that good.  I suppose a combination of no bass, probably overdriven at too high a sound level and distortion.  People forget the old rule of thumb about balancing low end and high end response.  One version was the bass response times the treble limit multiplied should be 500,000 (some promoted 400,000).  25hz-20 khz.  Or 100 hz-5 khz.  You don't want 300hz-15khz.  

And always keep in mind: Cognitive biases, like seeing optical illusions are a sign of a normally functioning brain. We all have them, it’s nothing to be ashamed about, but it is something that affects our objective evaluation of reality. 

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22 minutes ago, Rexp said:

Wrong. Good high end gear presents the low level details in the music, like piano keys being gently caressed that creates the emotional impact. 

Your belief of emotions towards a piece of music comes from the quality of gear to reproduce the details is the appreciation to the gear's ability not the music itself.  I believe you will not enjoy our Chinese Opera even if it is play in the good high end gear, what emotion you will have.  So if you don't like the piece of music, it does not matter what gears are used to play it, your mind will not attribute any positive emotion to it.  You can disagree but who do you think you are to state that I am wrong. 

MetalNuts

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2 hours ago, rando said:

 

Then there is rocketing off the top into open air by declaring unwillingness to hit the off switch and go out because live music isn't very good compared to recordings.  That no longer give you enjoyment. 

 

A memory that has stayed with me is hearing a piano recital at the Sydney Opera House, sitting not in the "best seats" but still at a reasonable distance from the instrument; in the early years of experiencing the SQ that I talk of. And ... it was disappointing; the impact just wasn't there, compared to the sense of hearing good reproduction of piano, at an intimate distance.

 

And don't get me started on how egregious pop and rock "live" concerts sound ... :).

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54 minutes ago, MetalNuts said:

Your belief of emotions towards a piece of music comes from the quality of gear to reproduce the details is the appreciation to the gear's ability not the music itself.  I believe you will not enjoy our Chinese Opera even if it is play in the good high end gear, what emotion you will have.  So if you don't like the piece of music, it does not matter what gears are used to play it, your mind will not attribute any positive emotion to it.  You can disagree but who do you think you are to state that I am wrong. 

Maybe there is misunderstanding, you're free to tell me I am wrong any time. 

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