Struggling with DSD & DLNA

[thedigitalhobo]

First time poster....

I'm struggling to use my PC as a DLNA controller to play high-res audio files over LAN to either my Oppo 103 or Marantz 7010. 
I don't have a standalone DAC, so the USB route isn't in the cards. 

 

I had a modicum of success with Foobar and the Oppo a while back, but now I think that Foobar was converting to PCM before pushing the files over to the Oppo. 

Same with the Marantz. I've used the UPnP and DSD/SACD components, but still not having any luck. Obviously (I think) the WASAPI and ASIO approach isn't for my setup. 

Is this even possible? Or is there some element of the DLNA standard that prevents me from 'pushing' a DSD/DSF file over LAN to a renderer that can play it? Or is Foobar just not the right program to use? 

Thanks in advance. 

 

[The Computer Audiophile]

10 minutes ago, thedigitalhobo said:

First time poster....

I'm struggling to use my PC as a DLNA controller to play high-res audio files over LAN to either my Oppo 103 or Marantz 7010. 
I don't have a standalone DAC, so the USB route isn't in the cards. 

 

I had a modicum of success with Foobar and the Oppo a while back, but now I think that Foobar was converting to PCM before pushing the files over to the Oppo. 

Same with the Marantz. I've used the UPnP and DSD/SACD components, but still not having any luck. Obviously (I think) the WASAPI and ASIO approach isn't for my setup. 

Is this even possible? Or is there some element of the DLNA standard that prevents me from 'pushing' a DSD/DSF file over LAN to a renderer that can play it? Or is Foobar just not the right program to use? 

Thanks in advance. 

 

I’d try using @jriver Media Center. 

[thedigitalhobo]

1 hour ago, The Computer Audiophile said:

I’d try using @jriver Media Center. 

I can push mp3 and FLAC, and even 24-88 FLAC without issue.

But using the same setup, it looks like the dsf file is playing, but there's no audio. 

When I check the status on the Marantz, it shows that its receiving a 176kbs WAV file, so there's some conversion going on in the middle with JRiver that I havent found and/or set. Currently for DSD Audio files, I have Playback Method set to automatic. 

Audio Output encoding is set for DSD in DoP. I can't use native since I don't use an ASIO drivers. 

In the DLNA settings, I have audio mode set to "original." 

If I change the DLKNA settings to specify a 24 bit PCM file, it doesn't even pretend to play. Just says "Waiting" and then stops doing anything. 

I know i'm overlooking something incredibly silly, but I have no idea what it is. 

 

[The Computer Audiophile]

I believe there is a setting for DoPE DoP over Ethernet in the settings. 

[The Computer Audiophile]

Also, using DoP it should receive the file as 24/176 pcm because the DSD is packed inside. Does your marantz play regular pcm at 24/176 over dlna?

[thedigitalhobo]

18 minutes ago, The Computer Audiophile said:

Also, using DoP it should receive the file as 24/176 pcm because the DSD is packed inside. Does your marantz play regular pcm at 24/176 over dlna?

Yup. And will play a 176 FLAC, too. 

So I don't understand the lack of audio, when the receiver was showing that it was playing (clock was going) and that it had the proper format. 

 

[Kal Rubinson]

37 minutes ago, thedigitalhobo said:

Yup. And will play a 176 FLAC, too. 

So I don't understand the lack of audio, when the receiver was showing that it was playing (clock was going) and that it had the proper format. 

Is there any documentation that states that the Marantz will support DoP over LAN?  Does it support DoP via S/PDIF?

[lucretius]

4 hours ago, Kal Rubinson said:

Is there any documentation that states that the Marantz will support DoP over LAN?  Does it support DoP via S/PDIF?

 

Marantz normally supports DoP over LAN . However, I have not seen any Marantz devices that support DSD/DoP  over optical -- PCM only.

 

(Marantz also supports DoP over USB and native DSD over USB, the latter requires the ASIO driver.)

[Kal Rubinson]

5 hours ago, lucretius said:

Marantz normally supports DoP over LAN . However, I have not seen any Marantz devices that support DSD/DoP  over optical -- PCM only.

(Marantz also supports DoP over USB and native DSD over USB, the latter requires the ASIO driver.)

Thanks.  I rarely use DoP because it's not a good way to do multichannel.

[thedigitalhobo]

7 hours ago, lucretius said:

 

Marantz normally supports DoP over LAN . However, I have not seen any Marantz devices that support DSD/DoP  over optical -- PCM only.

Any tips on how to correctly do that? I'm beating my head off the wall. 
Was going to plug an HTPC into the receiver, but not sure where that gets me if I can't do DSD/DoP over HDMI or make DSD/DoP over LAN work. 

[The Computer Audiophile]

You have this setting checked, correct?

 

[thedigitalhobo]

8 minutes ago, The Computer Audiophile said:

You have this setting checked, correct?

 

yep. 

[pas]

1 hour ago, thedigitalhobo said:

yep. 

Try switching between the choices under audio mode.

[pas]

What are your selections under the advanced tab?

[Cebolla]

13 hours ago, thedigitalhobo said:

I'm struggling to use my PC as a DLNA controller to play high-res audio files over LAN to either my Oppo 103 or Marantz 7010. 
I don't have a standalone DAC, so the USB route isn't in the cards. 

 

I had a modicum of success with Foobar and the Oppo a while back, but now I think that Foobar was converting to PCM before pushing the files over to the Oppo. 

Same with the Marantz. I've used the UPnP and DSD/SACD components, but still not having any luck. Obviously (I think) the WASAPI and ASIO approach isn't for my setup. 

Is this even possible? Or is there some element of the DLNA standard that prevents me from 'pushing' a DSD/DSF file over LAN to a renderer that can play it? Or is Foobar just not the right program to use?

 

Regarding foobar2000, there are two plugin components that provide it with UPnP/DLNA capabilities, foo_upnp and foo_out_upnp, but only the older currently unsupported foo_upnp plugin supports native streaming of DSD files and that's limited to single rate DSD at 2.8MHz aka DSD64. The limit is there because the plugin's developer has never updated the plugin for DSD file streaming, since providing the initial support, which was single rate at the time. That DSD file streaming support was a bit of a hack, anyway, implemented on the UI by adding the 2822400 upper limit setting to the PCM sample rate range, in the plugin's UPnP/DLNA media server Streaming Profiles settings configuration screen!

 

The foo_out_upnp plugin, as its name suggests, provides the foobar2000 audio engine's own output as a continuous PCM stream (with the option of it being either as raw LPCM or contained in a WAV file or encoded as a FLAC file), rather than the individual audio file tracks themselves. The audio engine only produces a PCM audio output signal since it is currently independent of the foo_input_sacd plugin component that provides foobar2000 with its DSD decoding support.

 

So to answer your original questions, it is possible to use foobar2000 for streaming single rate DSD files and you were likely either using the wrong (ie, foo_out_upnp) plugin o you hadn't configured the foo_upnp plugin properly for DSD streaming support.

 

 

 

11 hours ago, thedigitalhobo said:

I can push mp3 and FLAC, and even 24-88 FLAC without issue.

But using the same setup, it looks like the dsf file is playing, but there's no audio. 

When I check the status on the Marantz, it shows that its receiving a 176kbs WAV file, so there's some conversion going on in the middle with JRiver that I havent found and/or set. Currently for DSD Audio files, I have Playback Method set to automatic. 

Audio Output encoding is set for DSD in DoP. I can't use native since I don't use an ASIO drivers. 

In the DLNA settings, I have audio mode set to "original." 

If I change the DLKNA settings to specify a 24 bit PCM file, it doesn't even pretend to play. Just says "Waiting" and then stops doing anything. 

I know i'm overlooking something incredibly silly, but I have no idea what it is.

 

JRiver Media Center is arguably just as confusing for setting up to use for UPnP/DLNA streaming as foobar2000 is, if not worse. No excuse really, given that the support is supposed to be built-in, rather than by adding third party designers' plugin components.

 

First off, ignore everything to do with the JRiver player's own audio output settings. The stream produced by its UPnP/DLNA media server does not use the Audio Output encoding setting, regardless if its set to DSD in DoP, Native or anything else. The Windows computer's audio output drivers do not get involved with UPnP/DLNA streaming.

To stream the audio file tracks natively, you must make sure the Jriver UPnP/DLNA media server that you are using is configured with its Audio - > Mode set to "Original", as you did in the first place. This will also get JRiver to ignore all the other Audio -> settings, so you don't need to worry about those (eg, the Audio -> Advanced settings should be greyed out). Additionally, for DSD file tracks to be streamed natively (ie, so that they can be played unaltered as their original DSD files by either the Marantz or the Oppo), the Advanced -> Bitstream DSD (requires DoPE compliant renderer) setting must not be set. Otherwise the DSD file tracks will be transcoded to DoP contained in WAV file streams.

[Cebolla]

40 minutes ago, pas said:

What are your selections under the advanced tab?

 

This won't make any difference as they should be greyed out and ignored by JRiver, if the OP sets the Audio -> Mode to "Original", as advised.

[The Computer Audiophile]

4 minutes ago, Cebolla said:

the Advanced -> Bitstream DSD (requires DoPE compliant renderer) setting must not be set. Otherwise the DSD file tracks will be transcoded to DoP contained in WAV file streams.

Isn’t this required because the endpoint audio device won’t support native DSD. It likely only supports DSD via DoP. 

[pas]

[Cebolla]

17 minutes ago, The Computer Audiophile said:

Isn’t this required because the endpoint audio device won’t support native DSD. It likely only supports DSD via DoP. 

 

Why have you assumed that?

 

Remember we are talking about the playback capabilities of the Oppo or the Marantz network audio file player, not how the player itself needs to pass the resultant audio output signal to its own internal DAC (be that DoP or native DSD).

 

Edit:

Thanks @pas for confirming that at least the Marantz can stream & play single rate .dsf & .dff DSD files

[The Computer Audiophile]

6 minutes ago, Cebolla said:

 

Why have you assumed that?

 

Remember we are talking about the playback capabilities of the Oppo or the Marantz network audio file player, not how the player itself needs to pass the resultant audio output signal to its own internal DAC (be that DoP or native DSD).

Because 99.9999% of these devices only support DoP. 

[Cebolla]

???

 

No, the majority of the current DSD supporting UPnP/DLNA streamers can stream and play the DSD files for themselves.

[The Computer Audiophile]

Just now, Cebolla said:

???

 

No, the majority of the current DSD supporting UPnP/DLNA streamers can stream and play the DSD files for themselves.

Can you name 10 that support native DSD?

[Cebolla]

All current Pioneer, Denon & Marantz models can network stream & play .dsf & .dff files.

[thedigitalhobo]

i can get a 24/192 FLAC to play, but not a dsf.

 

[thedigitalhobo]

1 hour ago, Cebolla said:

First off, ignore everything to do with the JRiver player's own audio output settings. The stream produced by its UPnP/DLNA media server does not use the Audio Output encoding setting, regardless if its set to DSD in DoP, Native or anything else. The Windows computer's audio output drivers do not get involved with UPnP/DLNA streaming.

To stream the audio file tracks natively, you must make sure the Jriver UPnP/DLNA media server that you are using is configured with its Audio - > Mode set to "Original", as you did in the first place. This will also get JRiver to ignore all the other Audio -> settings, so you don't need to worry about those (eg, the Audio -> Advanced settings should be greyed out). Additionally, for DSD file tracks to be streamed natively (ie, so that they can be played unaltered as their original DSD files by either the Marantz or the Oppo), the Advanced -> Bitstream DSD (requires DoPE compliant renderer) setting must not be set. Otherwise the DSD file tracks will be transcoded to DoP contained in WAV file streams. 

 

Sweet. This is working. Got my dsf file playing. Receiver is showing PCM 88.2khz even though its a DSD64 file.

I guess thats right-ish? And I can't seem to play a DSD128 file, but that just may be the limit of what we can do.

 

Also, thank you for your help here. I'm so frustrated. Going to go back to Foobar and check if I'm using the wrong upnp component (i suspect I am, since I know this used to work at some point).