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Power conditioning: how did you choose the best approach for your system?


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On 6/23/2019 at 9:57 PM, Ralf11 said:

why not lay out your expertise in power supply design

 

or in electronic circuit design

 

got an engineering degree?  science degree?  pottery major?

 

But why?  According to your power co. we should be good to go, right?   

 

Why do you trust what others say?   Are you that naive?   Or just lazy?

The more I dabble with extreme forms of electrical mgmt. and extreme forms of vibration mgmt., the more I’m convinced it’s all just variations of managing mechanical energy. Or was it all just variations of managing electrical energy? No, it’s all just variations of mechanical energy. Wait.  It's all just variations of managing electrical energy.  -Me

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8 hours ago, Ralf11 said:

maybe it is time to discuss proven or claimed sonic benefits of adding isolation transformers, balanced power, etc. ...

 

e..g. better spatial localization of instruments, finer detail, better low end definition, larger soundstage

 

I have even seen a claim for "midrange realism" tho that seems a wooly description

 

Yes, this is what it's about ... the goal, as always, is to trick the mind into accepting that the sound being projected is something that's 'real' - this is why the concept of conjuring comes into it; a magician only has validity when he practices his craft at a certain level of competence; as soon as he makes a mistake, or is clumsy; or someone has told you what to watch for as he does the trick ... all the 'magic' evaporates, and your level of emotional involvement drops dramatically. It's a ... fail ...

 

And that's how I find audio works - it's capable of tricking the mind; but the mind is not dumb. As soon as it picks up a few clues, it homes in, relentlessly, on the giveaway artifacts - and from then on it just sounds like an "ordinary hifi".

 

So, what all these tweaks of "isolation transformers, balanced power, etc" are about, is minimising those giveaways - yes, all the bits like imaging, soundstage, detail improve ... but the killer outcome is a completely robust illusion, one that you can't shake no matter how you try to make the "mirage" go away ...

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10 hours ago, Ralf11 said:

maybe it is time to discuss proven or claimed sonic benefits of adding isolation transformers, balanced power, etc. ...

 

Let me try to explain a different way:

 

My goal on the digital side of the system is to deliver the bits to the DAC in a bitperfect fashion and without noise. 

 

I am not specifically looking for a power supply “sound” or transformer “sound” rather to supply clean power, to reduce both differential and common mode noise. If particular I want to keep common mode noise out of the system because this can be trickier to eliminate. 

 

So I look at the inputs to the system and look to minimize noise entering the system via its inputs: both power and signal. This also means keeping the system as simple as reasonable. I don’t listen for “SQ” of power supplies, rather to reduce problems such as hum & fuzz & crackles. I don’t listen to different power supplies, rather select something good for the purpose and use it. 

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6 minutes ago, jabbr said:

I don’t listen for “SQ” of power supplies, rather to reduce problems such as hum & fuzz & crackles.

 

I understand the former. But I have never seen anything like the latter. Such a thing does not happen in a power supply. At least not that I can tell.

 

1 hour ago, fas42 said:

So, what all these tweaks of "isolation transformers, balanced power, etc" are about, is minimising those giveaways

 

... just like that is eh ... a bit of bs ?

 

10 hours ago, Ralf11 said:

maybe it is time to discuss proven or claimed sonic benefits of adding isolation transformers, balanced power, etc. ...

 

Hopefully it doesn't come as a surprise that this clearly hinted to "none". And I would fully agree.

 

 

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5 minutes ago, PeterSt said:

I understand the former. But I have never seen anything like the latter. Such a thing does not happen in a power supply. At least not that I can tell.

 

Specifically ground loops and leakage currents (same thing really) —- no doubt you’ve heard one! No doubt you fixed it decades ago 😂

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6 hours ago, jabbr said:

I guess that if you decrease hum and other noise from ground currents eg crackles

 

i really really wonder how much noise a system / your system would show when "crackles" as such would be in order. 500mV ? more ?

At the moment that happens, all is so seriously wrong that you wouldn't know where to begin to look.

 

image.png

 

Like that one ... which is only 4mV. Totally terrible, but never audible.

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2 minutes ago, jabbr said:

Specifically ground loops and leakage currents

 

Yes, that would have been a next quote from the previous page already.

But now I don't know how that relates to isolation transformers. Oh, we can imagine something, but ... not really.

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5 minutes ago, jabbr said:

No doubt you fixed it decades ago 😂

 

Not decades. One decade. So True, once, when I was an audiophile for a nice life time already, I most probably worked with that 500mV myself. This was in the time that we all used preamps and only heard noise when we set the volume wide open and could hear faint noise from 89dB sensitive speakers.

So really is only ten years ago that I remove my passive (transformer based) "preamp" and didn't know where to go because of the blasting noise throughout. This was a bit of the same time when I started using horn speakers. IIRC 115dB sensitive, back then. It was an impossible situation. But also the most normal for everyone. 

... with a preamp. No big deal.

 

Today ? today I wouldn't even know what I could do wrong. But I guess I learned how to inter connect things. What goes where in which wall. Throw out switching bricks instead of having one per smartphone and so much more. Learn that Pro devices only create noise (like an xxx channel device for nice mixing).

 

So 99% of us would still be in that situation. If you don't use a preamp then you are possibly lucky not to use efficient horn speakers. Still no problem (but still poorer sound).

1% could be like me. A virtual "no noise" ( I showed that earlier in the thread). What did I do for that ?

 

Just make power supplies as should. No big deal really. Use high PSRR chips where needed. Don't do strange disallowed things. Use ultra low dissipation supplies because of well matching (again I refer to your G3 with 25C dissipation in a 22C ambient and it is even a shunt (main) PSU in there). Warmth = noise (generally).

But otherwise ?

No strange transformers. And mind you, I do have the power (sinus) regeneration units. They are catching dust. Also for 10 years by now. Just like all the PEQ stuff I used back at the time. All not necessary anymore.

 

And really all I did was having the inter connections right.

There's one very crucial element in my system for all this: that power extension block with the P-P-P-P-P-L-L-L-L-L sockets. And one dedicated earth ring where all related to audio goes to.

Nothing other people can't achieve.

Almost, because I am a bit precedented as I can measure.

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11 minutes ago, PeterSt said:

But now I don't know how that relates to isolation transformers. Oh, we can imagine something, but ... not really.

 

??? I’m sure you know how isolation transformers work but I’ll explain for folks listening in the sidelines.

 

The  noise from your fridge etc sails across a cheap SMPS which has a tiny transformer and s substantial amount of interwinding capacitance —- at frequencies >0 the current passes through the capacitance and back along the ground forming a circuit. The more capacitance, the more current flows across the transformer —- this is leakage current which is essentially a ground loop.

 

An isolation transformer has very low interwinding capacitance and thus minimizes these AC currents emitted by your fridge etc — it this blocks these ground loops by cutting off the circuit. 

 

Remember that all currents flow in circuits — including that 5mV noise — noise travels along parasitics — an isolation transformer blocks these currents and hence “rejects” the noise. 

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Star grounding: why? Because the inductances are similar! Noise is AC!

 

You don’t want to unintentionally create a low inductance path and shunt noise into the circuit along parasitics!

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5 minutes ago, jabbr said:

AC currents emitted by your fridge etc

 

through air

No isolation transformer stops that. It may actually make it worse (although I could never prove that).

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1 minute ago, PeterSt said:

 

through air

No isolation transformer stops that. It may actually make it worse (although I could never prove that).

Remember — all currents form a circuit! No exceptions!

 

You are referring to common mode noise. Don’t build an antenna 😉

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4 hours ago, jabbr said:

Don’t build an antenna 😉

 

Remember what I said earlier on: DO build an antenna. A dummy one. Disco light or something. Haha.

But I have no knowledge on antennas (or antennae if you want). So how does my disco light captures the signal before by (e.g.) DAC does. Just put it in the right path(way) ?

Shielding where it shouldn't go after all ?

 

Now I feel like a Nascar Rookie.

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6 hours ago, PeterSt said:

 

Remember what I said earlier on: DO build an antenna. A dummy one. Disco light or something. Haha.

But I have no knowledge on antennas (or antennae if you want). So how does my disco light captures the signal before by (e.g.) DAC does. Just put it in the right path(way) ?

Shielding where it shouldn't go after all ?

 

 

https://science.howstuffworks.com/faraday-cage.htm

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23 hours ago, Ralf11 said:

...

e..g. better spatial localization of instruments, finer detail, better low end definition, larger soundstage

 

I have even seen a claim for "midrange realism" tho that seems a wooly description

 

I mentioned the above as those are quotes about effects on SQ of using an EquiTech* - either by them or by a dealer

 

Note that these are more subtle than hum or crackles

 

 

* I think we can all agree that this particular manf. has ... um... "street cred"

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On 6/25/2019 at 12:11 PM, Ralf11 said:

e..g. better spatial localization of instruments, finer detail, better low end definition, larger soundstage

 

 

Sure all of that! :)

 

I think we are all looking for better realism, the sense of being there. Looking for the electronics to just disappear and just listen to the music. Transparency. 

 

Let's say you were designing a lab in your home to make some very sensitive measurements: you probably use an iso transformer (balanced or not), you'd probably use those nice slate benchtops and might vibration isolate them if you are being really sensitive, you might even build a faraday cage into the walls if you are being really sensitive.

 

That's for electronics, now for music, you'd treat the walls and do room correction.

 

That's just the background, the canvas. To listen to music, we need to add music to this blank slate.

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18 minutes ago, jabbr said:

That's for electronics, now for music, you'd treat the walls and do room correction.

 

No freakin' way. The walls not and might one have the idea that room correction is necessary ... backdoor solutions to inherent faults to begin with.

 

Funny, because I'd apply the "for electronics" right away.

 

We shouldn't be able to communicate a single word. 😫

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that last para. is the whole point - who (or what location*) will benefit at all & who or where is highly likely to benefit

 

my bets are:

- less likely to 'need' it for an R1 zone; more likely for an apt. in NYC

- less likely for expensive, well-designed gear; more likely for cheaper or poorly designed gear

- more likely for streamers (maybe?)

- more likely for orchestral music, acoustic music

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5 hours ago, Ralf11 said:

that last para. is the whole point - who (or what location*) will benefit at all & who or where is highly likely to benefit

 

my bets are:

- less likely to 'need' it for an R1 zone; more likely for an apt. in NYC

- less likely for expensive, well-designed gear; more likely for cheaper or poorly designed gear

- more likely for streamers (maybe?)

- more likely for orchestral music, acoustic music

 

The great thing is that all gear comes with a sticker, either stating "I'm cheap, and poorly designed" or "I'm expensive, and poorly designed" or "I'm cheap, and well designed", or "I'm expensive, and well designed".

 

The hard bit is finding out where they've put this damn sticker ...

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9 hours ago, Ralf11 said:

 more likely for orchestral music, acoustic music

 

It appears that mere electronic music is the most demanding. This is because it contains more "difficulty".

Btw 10 years ago or so I had thought the same. But the music I refer to got seriously more (technically) sophisticated. I am talking artists like I refer to in here:

... and after the whole lot adapted to representing that music (way) better, the old stuff surely benefited too (up to Kraftwerk's  Autobahn, but alas).

 

Orchestral work is not easy to represent well. But say that at some stage that's done (I saved trying that for real for quite some decades, knowing how my father's system was good at it and mine only did Deep Purple well - in my view (my father had different thoughts about that)). That Classical started to work out was not 10 years ago, but say 5 (and it really indicates how difficult it is). But beyond that, the mere electronic type of music simply changes each 6 months or so, into something of which you are sure you never played it before. So much more is in there.

 

Take for example the copper work of an orchestra. (Very) Difficult to begin with (take Chris Barber to practice a little). This is all about the transient on/off sound, at a certain frequency level. You may recognize it as smeared and therefore no copper at all, or that it really hurts your ears because it is too "steeply" rendered (too much of digitus in the system). Have that rendered well, and you'd have the instrument.

Now, a synthesizer is about 100% of that. But in a kazillion combinations. Slightly change how the system is capable, and it sounds totally different. Melody lines pop out which were never heard before, or melodies appear to be in a bass while previously it was just backing notes. And if melodies appear, you can bet you never heard the whole track. And I guess we know that a composition often (or always) consists of more than one melody line at the same time. They play (against) each other with a certain balance between them. And this varies throughout the song.

blahblahblah

 

I have a whole set of (dozens of) albums which I explicitly play after a (perceived) improvement, curious what will come out this time. And it really is so that a. I play such an album once per two months or so because I like it (I have maybe 1000 albums only which I'd call "nice stuff" and from which I choose to play, daily) and b. then after the system change (could be a ^2 configuration change) I suddenly don't recognize the album and only strong melodies in one or two of the tracks assure me that I really did not make a mistake in the selection.

 

Unbelievable ?

Anyway that doesn't happen To Beethoven's nth. Also not to Chris Isaak. Not at this idiot level of recognition.

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9 hours ago, marce said:

for dipole reference plane I believe, my mate at work is more into this stuff than me and goes on about his antenna's and their effect on domestic bliss... Amateur hams are a different breed!!!

http://www.hottconsultants.com/pdf_files/dipoles-1.pdf

 

😂 I was referring to the fact radios seem to work in space  

 

Hmm ... I wonder what the bass will sound like when they play the opening score to “2001” during the long Human Mars Mission ... do you think the SQ will be affected?

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