Power conditioning: how did you choose the best approach for your system?

[Ralf11]

I'm a scientist.

 

No gripping!

 

Are you saying that Canadians are random technicians? 

[sandyk]

4 hours ago, Ralf11 said:

yet another reason to get a Class A amp

 

 Both my Preamp and 15W/Ch. P.A. are Class A , and possibly the best P.A. I have heard at a listening session were big 100W/Ch Nelson Pass Class A monoblocks. They gave a frighteningly real presentation of the Chesky track " The Storm" with a very good simulation of height as well,  in a >Au.$100K system belonging to one of Audiophile Neuroscience's Medical Specialist's friends.

[sandyk]

16 hours ago, fas42 said:

Very nice at the beginning there, shtf ... however, and I say this with a long face , I can also hear my old foe in action - as the clip progresses there is a slow decline in the 'purity' of the treble …

 

 This is to be expected with YouTubes low bit rate .aac audio.

 Interestingly, if you are able to download the clip and upsample this audio to a higher bit rate .aac it usually improves further.

 

 

[sandyk]

7 hours ago, jabbr said:

 

So I have a sweet Equi-tech “Model Q” balanced isolation transformer — I also have several Topaz in several sizes. Assuming your electronics are fed by the Equi-tech ... the effect of the power grid, or house wiring, or quality of my earth ground  is exactly how much over zero?

 

Hint: the Equi-tech has good protective circuits on a great low capacitance and very solid transformer — nothing at all magical

 

Ok now if you’ve got EMI coming in from your fridge then get a good filter — the ones the ham radio guys use — these are also cost effective 😉

  

 

 

Many of the Amateur Radio guys also use vastly improved earthing too.

[jabbr]

6 minutes ago, sandyk said:

 

Many of the Amateur Radio guys also use vastly improved earthing too.

 

The professional radio guys tend not to use earth grounds, eh @marce 

[PeterSt]

2 hours ago, Ralf11 said:

Are you saying that Canadians are random technicians? 

 

My IQ and especially my English holds back of a confirmatory Yes. Deducting a relative 10 of the former makes it a definitive No.

 

I wish the language barrier didn't exist. I would probably lose more on the EQ side of matters albeit I'd grant you even more of that when you were a woman.

See ? I can't do this. Word games are great, if you first know the words. Or the woman.

Never mind (again).

[sandyk]

31 minutes ago, jabbr said:

 

The professional radio guys tend not to use earth grounds, eh @marce 

 

 I am not a Ham Radio guy, but if it wasn't for the Amateur Radio guys many years ago, we wouldn't have S/W radio, long distance communications, TV, moon bounce etc.  capabilities and more than likely no Pro radio guys either.

[fas42]

14 hours ago, sandyk said:

Many members have reported that the audio from their Laptops sounds better when running off their internal battery.

I doubt that even Dennis would disagree with that statement.

 

At one stage when I was working on extracting best sound from my old HP laptop - which is rather sick at the moment, graphics chip is going into hysterics when activated - I worked out an order of merit. Worst was battery fully charged, and charger on idle, plugged in; next was straight battery power, charger completely out of the picture; and best was battery well down, charger actively recharging.

 

Which makes sense - the charger was producing too much noise when it wasn't outputting high current; the battery only situation has too much internal resistance; and the charger topping up the batteries allowed the batteries to act as a smoothing filter, while actively delivering enough current for optimum audio.

[sandyk]

11 minutes ago, fas42 said:

 

At one stage when I was working on extracting best sound from my old HP laptop - which is rather sick at the moment, graphics chip is going into hysterics when activated - I worked out an order of merit. Worst was battery fully charged, and charger on idle, plugged in; next was straight battery power, charger completely out of the picture; and best was battery well down, charger actively recharging.

 

Which makes sense - the charger was producing too much noise when it wasn't outputting high current; the battery only situation has too much internal resistance; and the charger topping up the batteries allowed the batteries to act as a smoothing filter, while actively delivering enough current for optimum audio.

 

That would depend mainly on the actual battery used and the actual charger in use., but Au. Telephone Exchanges float their huge battery banks with just enough Rectifier output to maintain a stable typically 52 to 53V and normally a dead quiet output.

[StephenJK]

Simple and practical for me.  I was living in the black maple forest with numerous power outages.  Not wanting to spike all the stereo with a power surge, some means of protection was needed.

 

Being an electrical designer and r&d person I knew that your average power bar with a 15 cent 135 VAC MOV across the input wasn’t going to do it.  At the same time, I wasn’t going to run the house full time on the natural gas generator.  There has to be something in between and there is.

 

 I settled on an APC power converter, I think a 115BLK, it was around $250 at the time.  I see they’re no longer available, the new ones have a battery backup and more cost.

 

A lot of people say “But Stephen, aren’t you concerned with that power converter polluting your stereo sound?”

 

My answer is “No, not even a little bit.”

 

I would rather have thousands of dollars of stereo equipment in playable condition that have a “pure” system. I shake my head in astonishment at people who never turn off their gear, and proudly explain that’s what the manufacturer wants you to do.

[jabbr]

1 hour ago, sandyk said:

 

 I am not a Ham Radio guy, but if it wasn't for the Amateur Radio guys many years ago, we wouldn't have S/W radio, long distance communications, TV, moon bounce etc.  capabilities and more than likely no Pro radio guys either.

 

I am alluding to the fact that aerospace radio tend to be professional, and obviously works and obviously has no earth ground. The need , or not, for earth grounding of ham radio antennae is a topic beyond this forum. Again, my impression that the role of earth grounding in audio circuitry (beyond safety) is perhaps the most misunderstood topic on this forum.

 

Here is an exercise (leave safety concerns about prying fingers aside): design an audio system with no earth ground: assume 120V balanced AC power input i.e. + = 60V AC and - = phase inverted 60V AC ... can you do it?

[sandyk]

16 minutes ago, jabbr said:

I am alluding to the fact that aerospace radio tend to be professional, and obviously works and obviously has no earth ground. The need , or not, for earth grounding of ham radio antennae is a topic beyond this forum. Again, my impression that the role of earth grounding in audio circuitry (beyond safety) is perhaps the most misunderstood topic on this forum.

 

 

 Many types of antennas don't need earthing, including TV antennas, except perhaps for the metal support in some circumstances , especially height. Yes, HF Amateur Radio antennae is an entirely different area.

 

I agree that grounding in audio circuitry isn't always necessary, except for safety reasons with some A.C. mains powered equipment.

 Having said that though, where you use several SMPS devices in your system it can result in quite a nasty bite from the metal case of some equipment if you come in contact with both it and an earthed object, including a mains earthed Power Amplifier when connecting/disconnecting interconnects.

It can be as high as half the A.C. mains voltage, albeit at a low current.

[Bob Stern]

2 hours ago, sandyk said:

 

 I am not a Ham Radio guy, but if it wasn't for the Amateur Radio guys many years ago, we wouldn't have S/W radio, long distance communications, TV, moon bounce etc.  capabilities and more than likely no Pro radio guys either.

 

What specific info do you have on Ham Radio operators making innovations in those fields that were subsequently adapted to other purposes?  I was a ham during my teenage years and subscribed to the two largest magazines for American hams.  I would have expected them to brag occasionally about such innovations.

 

(Not intending to be disputative, just curious.)

[sandyk]

15 minutes ago, Bob Stern said:

 

What specific info do you have on Ham Radio operators making innovations in those fields that were subsequently adapted to other purposes?  I was a ham during my teenage years and subscribed to the two largest magazines for American hams.  I would have expected them to brag occasionally about such innovations.

 

(Not intending to be confrontational, just curious.)

 

I am only relying on memory here, as I am more than likely quite a bit older than you are (80)  , but I feel sure that it is well documented, especially with S/W which was initially deemed to be of no commercial value. 

 Some of their original allocated spectrum, was later recovered for commercial use.

Hams were also the first ,IIRC, to perform Moon Bounce experiments at 144mHz.

 

The .pdf at the link may be of interest.

http://citeseerx.ist.psu.edu/viewdoc/download?doi=10.1.1.199.818&rep=rep1&type=pdf

[Bob Stern]

Thanks, Alex.  The thesis you linked to is a very detailed resource.

 

Here's another I found:

http://www.astrosurf.com/luxorion/qsl-ham-history6.htm

[loop7]

I removed all power products from my system a few years ago.

[Summit]

On 6/24/2019 at 8:59 AM, PeterSt said:

 

Hey Alex - My message there was that where people find things to sound better, it won't be better when it the sound is "created" by means of noise. It may come across as better to you, but it won't be.

So Yes, I measure and I do that (also) to protect myself from wrong judgment. If I'd still think that a noise signal sounds better, I would be foolishly ignorant. Or ignorantly foolish.

 

I would not use a laptop as a source for music personally, but everything else held equal a laptop does sound better when running off battery power compared to using the wall wart PSU.

[Ralf11]

maybe it is time to discuss proven or claimed sonic benefits of adding isolation transformers, balanced power, etc. ...

 

e..g. better spatial localization of instruments, finer detail, better low end definition, larger soundstage

 

I have even seen a claim for "midrange realism" tho that seems a wooly description

[PeterSt]

Only more wooly bass here.

[jabbr]

2 hours ago, Ralf11 said:

 

maybe it is time to discuss proven or claimed sonic benefits of adding isolation transformers, balanced power, etc. ...

 

 

Reduction in ground loops — if your leakage don’t stink you are good  

[Ralf11]

but what is the effect on sound quality ??

 

or is that a cross-sensory comment?

[miguelito]

I have tried a bunch of things in my system. Isolation transformers (not the best ones), a power strip with some quantum shit in it, all of these were to my ears a bit different but not better. The quantum shit in particular was a non-event, I don't know if the cat inside that box had actually died or what. I used that thing for about two months, and I looked at it often to see if the wave function would collapse into a state I liked, to no avail.

 

I am now trying an Audience AdeptResponse AR6-TS, and this actually did make a positive difference from the moment I put it in. But it's only been a few days so I will give it a few weeks to really form an opinion.

 

I have to confess I consider myself a terrible evaluator. I cannot come up with the descriptions reviewers come up with, and I don't love the A/B blah blah blah. I do have two criteria for "good" though:

1- If the music relaxes me to the point of making me sleepy (I sleep a LOT)

2- If the sound is such I actually don't want to change a track and instead I let it finish

 

So far I am liking what the AR6 is doing but a few weeks of listening are required before I can say...

[jabbr]

25 minutes ago, Ralf11 said:

but what is the effect on sound quality ??

 

or is that a cross-sensory comment?

I guess that if you decrease hum and other noise from ground currents eg crackles, that you improve the overall dynamic range of the reproduced sound?

[sandyk]

2 hours ago, jabbr said:

I guess that if you decrease hum and other noise from ground currents eg crackles, that you improve the overall dynamic range of the reproduced sound?

 

 

 A good track for a test like that is "Renee Olstead-Summertime", where you can hear her solo voice appear to take longer to fade into

" blackness"

[shtf]

On 6/23/2019 at 10:25 PM, fas42 said:

 

Very nice at the beginning there, shtf ... however, and I say this with a long face , I can also hear my old foe in action - as the clip progresses there is a slow decline in the 'purity' of the treble ...

 

This is my nemesis at work, and long and hard have been the battles with him - can you hear this happening?

 

Yeah, I wasn't paying close attention to the in-room volume.  Thanks for the note, Frank.