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Power conditioning: how did you choose the best approach for your system?


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PS: Here's that heating system pump on its own:

 

Pump02.png.1516ba1ea954947617e0eb50b15ee467.png

 

I did not register the levell here, but recall that the inherent system base noise of that time (say 14 years ago) was at -75dB or so. This is thus *under* what you see above ! So the peaks of it might just as well have reached -50dB. And even if it were -60dB ...

Mind you, this would be normal for the majority of people. That I have this now at -138dB for power supply is not normal at all. And in the output of the DAC it has totally gone (see previous post - red).

 

The picture in this post is what I measured by microphone because I got mad from a tone, similar to what an old analogue TV could produce. Nobody heard it and I got mad of it. After 6 months or so I thought to prove I wasn't mad by taking out a microphone and simply measure. That's what you see above.

 

And now you don't want to know what I all could do to lower and higher these peaks. Just attaching an additional connector to a random cable, is an example (I recall a difference of a sheer 20dB). Putting an audio device to the wall without switching it on, is another.

Antenna working ...

 

Here is an other situation, which I found after coming back from a vacation:

image.thumb.png.16079fe49f968bb5fa44c8b41f4cacbb.png

So the scale is mV. I am used to masure over a peak to peak range of 60uV (1000 times of lower noise).  So a complete monster had appeared on, yeah, what. We couldn't measure any more (obviously) but still were producing DACs. I had to re-arrange all what was connected to the mains for PE connections and what was connected to which ring etc., until it was gone again. What had happened or cause it ? up to date I still don't know. I do know that this was not audible for noise or hum etc. Most of you people would still think it is quite OK at p-p of 4mV. But come on ...

Btw, my FireFace800 of the time broke in the process of whatever it was when we were out, so surely something did happen.

 

Would you know that suddenly something like this is in order ?

It can happen to anyone. Unless you measure. Which I can. And when you're at that anyway, why not go the whole way. Whether it is USB noise or poor performing power amps which in the end may be about poor connections, or PE arrangements that will help, or avoiding laptops. The examples are numerous and actually too many to quickly list.

 

Lush^3-e      Lush^2      Blaxius^2.5      Ethernet^3     HDMI^2     XLR^2

XXHighEnd (developer)

Phasure NOS1 24/768 Async USB DAC (manufacturer)

Phasure Mach III Audio PC with Linear PSU (manufacturer)

Orelino & Orelo MKII Speakers (designer/supplier)

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2 hours ago, One and a half said:

The star grounding system can be replicated with a simple power strip, that has no overvoltage or surge suppression devices, just a plain Jane strip. Especially for sources, where a number of devices feed to a pre or integrated amp.

 

That. I am advising this all the time. One addition:

 

Make that a 10 socket one (should be sufficient and otherwise have two of them) with input including PE, half of them (the other end of the input) detached from PE. Thus for 10 sockets:

Wall -> PE-PE-PE-PE-PE-N-N-N-N-N (N = Neutral and hot only).

Stick that in a PE provided wall socket. Put the audio equipment in the combinations you think sound best.

 

When you run out of either half (because you need more than 5 of the same), have a second one. Stick that in the PE of the first.

OR

(mind you)

When you have the second one anyway, stick that in the N (!) of the first. Now use the second one at will for its PE sockets, so the devices you put in there, interconnect via their PE connections, never mind they are not using PE themselves at all (btw, obviously devices may not even carry a PE connection in their mains plug).

 

Eh, yes, you need to make this yourself. It can't be bought. Unless I put something like it in my webshop. Haha.

(could be a real idea).

 

So this is power conditioning of a real kind because you will be trying to avoid ground loops. And antenna working with it (radiation at first because something is wrong and a receptor secondly, elsewhere. Usually not your toaster but your DAC or something).

Lush^3-e      Lush^2      Blaxius^2.5      Ethernet^3     HDMI^2     XLR^2

XXHighEnd (developer)

Phasure NOS1 24/768 Async USB DAC (manufacturer)

Phasure Mach III Audio PC with Linear PSU (manufacturer)

Orelino & Orelo MKII Speakers (designer/supplier)

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4 hours ago, sandyk said:

this doesn't make much sense to me, and in my experience results in improved performance with USB provided that the lead length from the battery to the powered device is minimised

 

Hi Alex. I don;t think I was talking about USB although it would be logical to derive it because I think I was talking about a laptop there. But never mind, it is not related to USB what I am talking about. Just difference in ground potential.

 

Quote

 I have fitted a toggle switch to such a mains powered supply for USB and this is easy to confirm.

 

Tells me nothing because it depends on ears. Now, yours are better than common (no pun here) but it still is dangerous without measurement. And I measure;

I have a thread like this on Phasure of the same stance, because as so often someone was damn sure that a laptop was the be it all. "You can run it on batteries !". Yes. But next the normal ground potential nivelation going over the mains (mind you, neutral already) now can't do that and it for dead sure goes over your poor USB connection. One thing I will give you (not that you were thinking about that), the 8KHz packet noise may be overwhelmed by even higher general noise now and USB packet noise will have vanished in the field.

True.

But hey ...

Still true for real.

Still but hey.

 

Man, this is all so much more complex.

Anyway, I tried it all myself and batteries can not be the solution. This relates to each device moving the general potential upwards, unless you have a device which uses negative rails only. Looking at the mains itself you'll have DC offset because of it. Nothing to really worry about, but don't connect anything to a different earthed ring (current now flowing between the two).

 

Isolation between the devices will help, but no genuine isolation exists that I know of and if it does (transformer based) it will imply a non-linear frequency response I personally also hate (like a fairly steep upgoing noise base line towards the right).

It *is* mighty difficult.

 

And when you think you understand all, you find that making a connection on rubber soles (or gloves, I'd say but I never tested that) implies a totally different result from doing that on non-isolated feet. The groundloop emerging from that (in this case indeed between two different PE'd rings) will never go away again, unless you know what to reboot (which could be all). Btw, reboot is general Off/On here - the American way.  :ph34r:

You as a person form the connection like emptying an aquarium with a hose (I don't know the English word for it). It never stops (unless the aquarium runs empty). When you don't make the connection in the first place (rubber soles = don't suck on the hose to get it started) then there is no ground loop. The next day you are on normal shoes and turn the volume knob and ...

The neighbours engaged the washing machine ?

 

Did I say it is complicated ?

 

Lush^3-e      Lush^2      Blaxius^2.5      Ethernet^3     HDMI^2     XLR^2

XXHighEnd (developer)

Phasure NOS1 24/768 Async USB DAC (manufacturer)

Phasure Mach III Audio PC with Linear PSU (manufacturer)

Orelino & Orelo MKII Speakers (designer/supplier)

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Quote
45 minutes ago, PeterSt said:

Anyway, I tried it all myself and batteries can not be the solution.

 

 

 Peter

 As far as USB devices go, if they are powered via a battery, there is virtually a perfect earth reference, as the -VE side of the battery is connected via the black 0 volts return wire of the USB cable to 0 volts of the Power supply, which  will also be connected to A.C. mains earth where a 3 wire mains cable is used.

In my setup I never get clicks or noise from other switching on mains powered items, even a fridge which of necessity these days has to be next to my PC. Neither do I ever hear any mains related clicks etc. through my main speaker system with TV connected to it either.

Alex

 

How a Digital Audio file sounds, or a Digital Video file looks, is governed to a large extent by the Power Supply area. All that Identical Checksums gives is the possibility of REGENERATING the file to close to that of the original file.

PROFILE UPDATED 13-11-2020

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1 hour ago, PeterSt said:

Tells me nothing because it depends on ears. Now, yours are better than common (no pun here) but it still is dangerous without measurement. And I measure;

Peter

Unlike some members,  I don't normally  need measurements to confirm what I report hearing or seeing.¬¬

 Neither do I need to see which way around the toggle switch at the rear of the mains USB PSU is n , when I reach behind the unit to change it over.  I am however normally listening via a decent pair of headphones, as my D.I.L. usually works night shift.

 A laptop normally does sound a little better when running off battery power, but the Motherboard still uses numerous voltage regulators (often not Linear types) which negates much of the potential improvements.

 I have yet to hear or see laptop derived A or V that really impresses me, mainly due to the need for efficiency and extended battery life.

Regards

Alex

 

How a Digital Audio file sounds, or a Digital Video file looks, is governed to a large extent by the Power Supply area. All that Identical Checksums gives is the possibility of REGENERATING the file to close to that of the original file.

PROFILE UPDATED 13-11-2020

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8 hours ago, PeterSt said:

I can imagine that something can be achieved with power conditioning. But people should not underestimate what's all coming through the air and how this is power grid related. PWM pump of your fridge, to name something.

For that reason, power conditioning never worked out for me. The "negative" part for me could be that I can measure it, and that I do. Whatever frequency coming through air (in-band !) is not filtered or -regenerated-out by a power conditioner. Even batteries don't help. Only a new fridge helps. But you won't even know ...

 

The next kind of sad message is that you can be at the recipients of that power, make that immune to whatever it is, and happily be connected to your neighbour's dishwashing grid. The sad part is that again you can not do that. Only the manufacturer of your gear can. And I don't see that happening. It could be done, but it is not too well understood by those manufacturers. Maybe if they first had designed high speed networks (which would make them have the measurement equipment to begin with). But ...

I am in the market for a new fridge, do you have any suggestions? Seriously.

Forrest:

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DSD>Pavel's DSC2.6>Bent Audio TAP>

Parasound JC1>"Naked" Quad ESL63/Tannoy PS350B subs<100Hz

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3 hours ago, PeterSt said:

So this is power conditioning of a real kind because you will be trying to avoid ground loops. And antenna working with it (radiation at first because something is wrong and a receptor secondly, elsewhere. Usually not your toaster but your DAC or something).

 

Yes! So this sums up what is needed:

 

1) good high quality/low capacitance isolating transformers break ground loops and “leakage” currents. 

2) common mode/EMI filters to reduce antennae effects as well as EMI projection along the USB (and other cables) 

3) differential signaling (ground loops and reduce differential mode noise)

Custom room treatments for headphone users.

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6 hours ago, sandyk said:

 Peter

 It can also be caused by a poor main earth . I had this problem years ago at a previous address where the main earth connection  was corroded.

Regards

Alex

in  my previous house here in California I had an ufer ground  (foundation) and an additional grounding rod and it worked fine but I started to get problems over the years of extreme drought. Just watering around the foundation (not so easy with all that water restrictions) made it a little better. So  ground with low resistance is what I am trying to achieve in my next house. Still wandering what is the best method. Multiple spaced ground rods (connected by high gauge wire)?  Lot of rocks in the ground may make that difficult.

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re: buying a new fridge - it may or may not help much; the turn on current is high and how that is controlled could make a difference

 

you can turn it off, along with your heat pump & LED or Fl lights for critical listening (maybe orchestral music?) as long as you don't forget to turn the fridge back on

 

also see if the music system can be on a different line and different column in your elec. panel than the fridge, etc. - a dedicated line may help and is a good proactive response if building or extensively remodeling; it may be low in cost/performance otherwise

 

a search on 'Topaz' will bring up a long thread on a low cost AC line transformer - I attempted a summary about midway

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On 6/22/2019 at 11:56 AM, Ralf11 said:

 

Let's not be stupid.  One and a Half's question (tho inverted) was a better one.  A discussion of power supply design might be useful, as would a discussion of what add-ons really work.

 

Here are some useful tidbits from Audio Research :

  • regulator circuits with wideband response
  • Ref6 has a tube-regulated power supply

 

 

“Let’s not be stupid.”  I like that.  However, I would have posed it in the form of a question like “When are we going to stop being stupid?”  It’s less offensive, but it also implies that up til now some of us have been.

 

You refuse to experiment yet you’ll quote Nelson Pass and Audio Research, et al all day long (as though they are experts in the field of noisy AC) and take their word for it? 

 

Perhaps now you can see how MQA made such an impression on high-end audio.  Because in an industry filled with untrained ears, experts like Stuart, Harley, and Atkinson claimed MQA was the equivalent of experiencing the birth of a new world and people just like you with mindsets like yours bought it hook, line, and sinker.

 

Did you know that some really fart smellers, I mean really smart fellers explained how on paper it’s impossible for bumble bees to fly?

 

If you’re truly satisfied with what others say on paper about various aspects of high-end audio, why bother owning a playback system in the first place?  Seriously, is this how you wanna’ spend the rest of your audiophile life?  Maybe on your tombstone, the epitaph could read, “Ralf11, an audiophile who listened to music, er, ummmm, others.”

 

Plug in some earbuds and have a listen to the opening moments of this piece and tell me with a straight face that without superior line conditioning your playback system can generate similar or better levels of musicality that includes these pristine, even delicate percussive musical notes.

 

https://youtu.be/5-om8WubOXk

 

 

The more I dabble with extreme forms of electrical mgmt. and extreme forms of vibration mgmt., the more I’m convinced it’s all just variations of managing mechanical energy. Or was it all just variations of managing electrical energy? No, it’s all just variations of mechanical energy. Wait.  It's all just variations of managing electrical energy.  -Me

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7 hours ago, monteverdi said:

So  ground with low resistance is what I am trying to achieve in my next house. Still wandering what is the best method. Multiple spaced ground rods (connected by high gauge wire)?  Lot of rocks in the ground may make that difficult.

Even Telephone Exchanges with their extensive earthing methods had problems like that from time to time, with Frenchs Forest Telephone Exchange in Sydney situated in an area like that, and required remedial work. Back in the Analogue days even a small increase in their earth resistance resulted in low level hum between some Exchanges. It's not so easy to get a reliable Earth resistance below 30 ohms either, which we required from PABXs, Public Telephones etc. and back then was measured from the Telephone Exchange.

 (PABXs were customer located internal Auto Exchanges ) Chatswood T.E. in Sydney had similar problems due to being located alongside a major Railway Station, and even a large shopping complex down the road could occasionally cause large earth related surges when initially starting up in the morning , sometimes knocking out a 2,000A rectifier in the Exchange. 

 

How a Digital Audio file sounds, or a Digital Video file looks, is governed to a large extent by the Power Supply area. All that Identical Checksums gives is the possibility of REGENERATING the file to close to that of the original file.

PROFILE UPDATED 13-11-2020

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31 minutes ago, Ralf11 said:

 

how pathetic

 

maybe your AC power is so bad it drove you crazy?

 

at any rate, Good luck with your anti-5G and contrails protests

 

Nice comeback.  Just remember, it was you who said, let’s not be stupid.

 

Oh, and by all means, please let me know when or if you ever decide to take this hobby seriously.  There's more to performance than just dropping names. 

The more I dabble with extreme forms of electrical mgmt. and extreme forms of vibration mgmt., the more I’m convinced it’s all just variations of managing mechanical energy. Or was it all just variations of managing electrical energy? No, it’s all just variations of mechanical energy. Wait.  It's all just variations of managing electrical energy.  -Me

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1 hour ago, shtf said:

 

Nice comeback.  Just remember, it was you who said, let’s not be stupid.

 

Oh, and by all means, please let me know when or if you ever decide to take this hobby seriously.  There's more to performance than just dropping names. 

 

 

it is the height of stupidity to assume that an ameuter DIYer can tinker their way into a result better than the best engineers in the business

 

I am sure you're a remarkable individual however

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3 minutes ago, Ralf11 said:

it is the height of stupidity to assume that an ameuter DIYer can tinker their way into a result better than the best engineers in the business

 

 The best engineers in the business still have to work within cost restraints set by the Bean Counters.

There is usually a way to further improve most affordable commercial Audio products given adequate internal space.

 

How a Digital Audio file sounds, or a Digital Video file looks, is governed to a large extent by the Power Supply area. All that Identical Checksums gives is the possibility of REGENERATING the file to close to that of the original file.

PROFILE UPDATED 13-11-2020

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What the industry lacks are those who understand that a competent rig is more than just plugging in various components that measure well on the test bench - "system integration", "system integrity" are phrases that are almost completely non-existent in this game ... and, it shows ... :P.

 

Standing back, the whole audio industry is extremely amateurish in its approach - which is why amateurs, DIYers can get so far, compensating for the lack of rigour which should in fact be applied by the manufacturers, etc.

 

 

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1 hour ago, Ralf11 said:

 

 

it is the height of stupidity to assume that an ameuter DIYer can tinker their way into a result better than the best engineers in the business

 

 

There are two sides to this: 

 

On one  hand “tinkering” without engineering/physics/measurements and established design methodologies is  unlikely to better an actual design. Swapping in a magic capacitor or clock etc does not equal actual design. Indeed can be worse because the relevant variables haven’t been accounted for. 

 

That said, the very best engineers have been known to hang out at DIYAudio and a DIY who employs actual design methods can build a component that would otherwise be cost prohibitive. 

Custom room treatments for headphone users.

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9 minutes ago, Ralf11 said:

 

 

which ones apply to a $5,000 pre-amp?

 There are way more expensive Preamps than $5,000. It depends on what facilities they provide .

e.g. https://www.soundstageaustralia.com/index.php/news/158-gryphon-audio-designs-new-princess-the-zena-preamplifier

 

How a Digital Audio file sounds, or a Digital Video file looks, is governed to a large extent by the Power Supply area. All that Identical Checksums gives is the possibility of REGENERATING the file to close to that of the original file.

PROFILE UPDATED 13-11-2020

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18 minutes ago, jabbr said:

 

There are two sides to this: 

 

On one  hand “tinkering” without engineering/physics/measurements and established design methodologies is  unlikely to better an actual design. Swapping in a magic capacitor or clock etc does not equal actual design. Indeed can be worse because the relevant variables haven’t been accounted for. 

 

That said, the very best engineers have been known to hang out at DIYAudio and a DIY who employs actual design methods can build a component that would otherwise be cost prohibitive. 

Agreed.

However there are well established methods to improving an existing design, such as adding an additional low noise regulated power supply for the input stage of an amplifier or Preamplifier.

 

There are some very talented designers who frequent DIY Audio and make it easier for others to duplicate their results, where normally it would be cost prohibitive to do so. Among those are John Curl (of " Blowtorch" fame) , Nelson Pass and Douglas Self.

 

How a Digital Audio file sounds, or a Digital Video file looks, is governed to a large extent by the Power Supply area. All that Identical Checksums gives is the possibility of REGENERATING the file to close to that of the original file.

PROFILE UPDATED 13-11-2020

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2 hours ago, Ralf11 said:

 

 

it is the height of stupidity to assume that an ameuter DIYer can tinker their way into a result better than the best engineers in the business

 

I am sure you're a remarkable individual however

 

Amateur status, eh?  Answer me this.  What qualifies a high-end audio participant to be of amateur status? 

 

Would lacking the ability to discern / interpret what we hear qualify one as an amateur?  If so, I can think of a good majority of enthusiasts that would meet that qualification.  In fact, that may well include a good majority of designers, manufacturers, dealers, distributors, reviewers, and editors too.  Does that include you?

 

How about lacking the ability to at least once assemble a reasonably impressive musical playback system?  Once again, I can think of a majority of enthusiasts, designers, manufacturers, dealers, distributors, reviewers, and editors who would meet that qualification.  And of course we both know this includes you.

 

Or is it just the ones who get paid for their endeavors that determines amateur or professional status? 

 

FWIW, in the past 20 years I’ve owned maybe 10 or 12 preamps ranging from $600 - $10k including 3 PASS Labs preamps and I probably turned around and sold the PASS Labs preamps faster than any other preamp I’ve owned.  They weren’t below par by any means but they certainly weren’t stellar performers either.  So maybe Nelson’s expertise really is with noisy AC after all.

 

Getting back to variations of line conditioning, including superior vs inferior.  I could probably take a reasonably humble but well-thought-out playback system retailing between say $45k and $60k (including superior line conditioners) and have one of the top 5 or even top 3 most musical exhibiting rooms at any given high-end audio show just because of the superior line conditioners.  Oh, that’s right.  I already did that.  Multiple times.  And that was only because I was employing superior line conditioners since my own product takes weeks before the magic even begins to kick in.

 

And yet, here we are 20+ years after the first line conditioner was built and we still have guys just like you with mindsets just like yours who refuse to try anything new.  Simply because some supposed expert said not to bother. 

 

And now you’re going to spend the rest of your life listening to an unmusical playback system, participate in high-end audio forums where your only contribution is to parrot what “experts” say, and even be so dogmatic as to defend your stance without ever having auditioned a superior (as opposed to inferior) line conditioner.  That’s not even amateur status but rather wannabe or groupie status.

 

I’m sorry. What was your definition again about the height of stupidity?

 

Like I said.  Let me know if you ever decide to take this hobby seriously.

The more I dabble with extreme forms of electrical mgmt. and extreme forms of vibration mgmt., the more I’m convinced it’s all just variations of managing mechanical energy. Or was it all just variations of managing electrical energy? No, it’s all just variations of mechanical energy. Wait.  It's all just variations of managing electrical energy.  -Me

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