Hqplayer: best NAA with best sound quality

[Account Closed]

On 4/13/2020 at 7:39 PM, The Computer Audiophile said:

I’ll be using both JCAT USB and NET cards with my tiny PC :~)

 

Details to come. 

Hi Chris, I just noticed this thread and look forward to this project. I am very happy to see you doing this kind of stuff again. CAPS was a long time ago (but not in a place far far away at least). Reviewing 25K  DACs is great and while it is entertaining to read, most of us will never have the ability to buy them (and even fewer will the way things are going). These kind of projects are what brought many of us here in the beginning and still keeps us coming back now.

 

I have a uRendu for my main system but I am still using my SB Touch in my bedroom system. I may build something like what you are working on for my main system and move the Rendu to the bedroom system and then retire the Touch. I am now retired and with the Covid 19 scourge I have more time at home to do it.

 

Thanks and I am waiting to see what you come up with.

[The Computer Audiophile]

Just now, bobflood said:

Hi Chris, I just noticed this thread and look forward to this project. I am very happy to see you doing this kind of stuff again. CAPS was a long time ago (but not in a place far far away at least). Reviewing 25K  DACs is great and while it is entertaining to read, most of us will never have the ability to buy them (and even fewer will the way things are going). These kind of projects are what brought many of us here in the beginning and still keeps us coming back now.

 

I have a uRendu for my main system but I am still using my SB Touch in my bedroom system. I may build something like what you are working on for my main system and move the Rendu to the bedroom system and then retire the Touch. I am now retired and with the Covid 19 scourge I have more time at home to do it.

 

Thanks and I am waiting to see what you come up with.

Thanks Bob. I'm actually having more fun now than in the last 5 years. 

 

P.S. Did you mention CAPS? Shhhhhhhhh, mum's the word. 

[bluesman]

On 4/13/2020 at 7:13 PM, luisma said:

the best SQ I got was with older generation small mini pcs. 2014 - 2017, celerons mainly, these celerons are completely compatible with Windows, Linux, etc. of course I would not use (me personally) Windows with it, you could even get Pentium's and i3 to i7 if you want to use these as NUC's, will do PCM 384 with HQP and all its filters, these will have USB 3.0 to connect a DAC etc.

Another unit offering great value in this category is the M004 Asus Chromebox.  With a Celeron heart, SSD, USB3, HDMI, WiFi (but only n), BT, and cool fanless running, it’s another answer to the value-seeking audiophile’s prayer. And with all traces of the ChromeOS wiped from it, it’s a great platform for a Linux based music machine.
 

I’m currently running Ubuntu 18.04 on the one I bought new when they first came out.  It’s my mule, and it’s run everything well from a production ColdFusion / MySQL web server for my music business website to audio (Roon, JRiver Media Center etc) to a multitrack recording studio (Ardour DAW, Hydrogen drum machine, and many LV2 plugins including MIDI instruments as well as DSP).  In about 6 years of trying hard, running 24/7/365, I’ve never been able to brick it and it recovers from each user-induced failure like Bill Murray on Groundhog Day.

 

It even does MC well. My only MC DAC is in a Pioneer Elite receiver, so I use HDMI for that application - and it works great!  It was $175 new but is now available refurbed for under $100. Throw in a bigger SSD and another 2G of RAM and it’s ready to please.  The current versions are also excellent, but they’re 3+ times the cost of a refurbed M004.

[AnotherSpin]

On 4/22/2020 at 2:04 AM, Miska said:

 

Yes it should work just fine on your NUC. Please make sure your BIOS is largely at default settings, IOW it is trying to boot using EFI and not legacy. And that USB storage is enabled as a boot device with priority over internal storage.

 

@Miska's advice on keeping BIOS at default settings may have even more sense than what may seem. After many experiments with different BIOS settings for NUC (power, performance, devices, etc.) I found out that default BIOS settings can have very beneficial effect on sound quality. Finally, I only changed a single security setting, which gives the ability to boot from NAA usb image without altering anything else (hyperthreading, turbo, power mode, etc). 

 

A few years ago, many people experimented with scripts (such as CAD) that interfered with the operating system to reduce the number of processes, etc. Miska was quite definitely against using such scripts then. It seems that keeping BIOS settings at default settings is just as important.

[bipet]

I am interested in a low powered Atom based NAA endpoint. I have a Allo USBridge Signature, and currently have Gentoo Player installed. However I would like to try a low cost atom based unit as an alternative. I assume it runs only with @Miska's NAA and no operating system. I have rpi4 which I might anyway.

 

Now I need to find something available in the UK, please shout if anybody knows of an equivalent (ish) device to the one Miska linked to earlier in the thread. Thanks.

[Miska]

1 hour ago, rossco said:

Now I need to find something available in the UK, please shout if anybody knows of an equivalent (ish) device to the one Miska linked to earlier in the thread. Thanks.

 

If you search for example Amazon UK for the CPU type; "x5-Z8350" you can find some devices.

 

For example this looks like Apple TV:

https://www.amazon.co.uk/Pro-x5-Z8350-Graphics-Computer-Bluetooth/dp/B07D9YX3W6  (2 GB RAM)

https://www.amazon.co.uk/Windows-x5-Z8350-Graphics-Desktop-Computer/dp/B081DR8CVN  (4 GB RAM)

 

But note that some of these may have a small and loud fan hidden inside, so be careful. And many likely have plastic cases unlike the one I recommend. The device should be passive cooled so that it doesn't make unwanted acoustic noises. It doesn't need much cooling, but it still needs heatsink to keep the CPU cool (like RasPi4 too).

 

[ambre]

14 minutes ago, Miska said:

 

If you search for example Amazon UK for the CPU type; "x5-Z8350" you can find some devices.

 

For example this looks like Apple TV:

https://www.amazon.co.uk/Pro-x5-Z8350-Graphics-Computer-Bluetooth/dp/B07D9YX3W6  (2 GB RAM)

https://www.amazon.co.uk/Windows-x5-Z8350-Graphics-Desktop-Computer/dp/B081DR8CVN  (4 GB RAM)

 

But note that some of these may have a small and loud fan hidden inside, so be careful. And many likely have plastic cases unlike the one I recommend. The device should be passive cooled so that it doesn't make unwanted acoustic noises. It doesn't need much cooling, but it still needs heatsink to keep the CPU cool (like RasPi4 too).

 

Hello Jussi, Just bought the Pro-X5 2Gb.

Which NAA and no operating system do I need to install looking at your site? Please advice.

 

Best regards, Andreas

[bipet]

25 minutes ago, Miska said:

 

If you search for example Amazon UK for the CPU type; "x5-Z8350" you can find some devices.

 

For example this looks like Apple TV:

https://www.amazon.co.uk/Pro-x5-Z8350-Graphics-Computer-Bluetooth/dp/B07D9YX3W6  (2 GB RAM)

https://www.amazon.co.uk/Windows-x5-Z8350-Graphics-Desktop-Computer/dp/B081DR8CVN  (4 GB RAM)

 

But note that some of these may have a small and loud fan hidden inside, so be careful. And many likely have plastic cases unlike the one I recommend. The device should be passive cooled so that it doesn't make unwanted acoustic noises. It doesn't need much cooling, but it still needs heatsink to keep the CPU cool (like RasPi4 too).

 

Thanks @Miska

 

I was looking at this one

https://www.amazon.co.uk/ACEPC-T11-64GB-x5-Z8350-Computer/dp/B07P9GVDTQ/ref=asc_df_B07P9GVDTQ/?tag=googshopuk-21&linkCode=df0&hvadid=310708967400&hvpos=&hvnetw=g&hvrand=13497436158468797862&hvpone=&hvptwo=&hvqmt=&hvdev=c&hvdvcmdl=&hvlocint=&hvlocphy=9045661&hvtargid=pla-697774880534&psc=1

 

It seems to have 5v and not 12v, which means I could use an IFI power supply I have knocking around. And, it does seem to be fanless, so it ticks that box. I can't seem to find a cheaper box without windows, which is a shame as I would just be installing the NAA image instead.

 

Ultimately then I would be comparing this device to an Allo USBridge Sig with their Shanti psu, and I am interested to see if I can hear any differences.

[Miska]

4 hours ago, ambre said:

Hello Jussi, Just bought the Pro-X5 2Gb.

Which NAA and no operating system do I need to install looking at your site? Please advice.

 

Best regards, Andreas

 

The naa-411-x64 is the latest at the moment.

 

[Miska]

4 hours ago, rossco said:

I was looking at this one

https://www.amazon.co.uk/ACEPC-T11-64GB-x5-Z8350-Computer/dp/B07P9GVDTQ/ref=asc_df_B07P9GVDTQ/?tag=googshopuk-21&linkCode=df0&hvadid=310708967400&hvpos=&hvnetw=g&hvrand=13497436158468797862&hvpone=&hvptwo=&hvqmt=&hvdev=c&hvdvcmdl=&hvlocint=&hvlocphy=9045661&hvtargid=pla-697774880534&psc=1

 

It seems to have 5v and not 12v, which means I could use an IFI power supply I have knocking around. And, it does seem to be fanless, so it ticks that box. I can't seem to find a cheaper box without windows, which is a shame as I would just be installing the NAA image instead.

 

Yes, that's another option. There seem to be at least couple of possible options. I don't have any of these, because I use the UP-Board one (practically made by ASUS). Unfortunately you end up paying some amount of "Windows tax" on the price. But OTOH, you can leave the Windows on eMMC and boot NAA from USB memory stick or microSD. Windows is probably horribly sluggish on such small memory and low power CPU. But for NAA running my image it is perfectly fine.

 

In the picture the Wintel Pro uses 5V DC power, hopefully feeding it straight to USB VBUS too.

 

The iFi PSU is probably a bit too weak for those. For 5V I'm using a Meanwell medical grade 5V 6A PSU brick, the model that has floating (two pin non-earthed) mains connector. There is also 12V model of the same with just lower current rating (because Wattage is the same).

 

[ambre]

15 minutes ago, Miska said:

 

The naa-411-x64 is the latest at the moment.

 

Thx

[bipet]

31 minutes ago, Miska said:

Yes, that's another option. There seem to be at least couple of possible options. I don't have any of these, because I use the UP-Board one (practically made by ASUS). Unfortunately you end up paying some amount of "Windows tax" on the price. But OTOH, you can leave the Windows on eMMC and boot NAA from USB memory stick or microSD. Windows is probably horribly sluggish on such small memory and low power CPU. But for NAA running my image it is perfectly fine.

 

In the picture the Wintel Pro uses 5V DC power, hopefully feeding it straight to USB VBUS too.

 

The iFi PSU is probably a bit too weak for those. For 5V I'm using a Meanwell medical grade 5V 6A PSU brick, the model that has floating (two pin non-earthed) mains connector. There is also 12V model of the same with just lower current rating (because Wattage is the same).

 

That is a good idea regarding leaving windows on the eMMC, as it did seem a shame to just ditch it. I might find a use for it 'down the road'. I can't find anything as nice as the UP gateway, oh well, I could hide the versions i have found in the kit rack.

 

I need to research PSU's then a bit, thanks for the info.

 

On a related note, I have your NAA working on my RPI4 now as a bit of a test, just listening on my office set-up (its usually running ropieee). I might have a listen on the main endpoint too. I wonder if I will be able to tell the difference between USBridge Sig, rpi4 or the Atom unit?? Interested to see.

 

[Miska]

24 minutes ago, rossco said:

I need to research PSU's then a bit, thanks for the info.

 

PSU I'm using is Meanwell GSM60B05-P1J

 

27 minutes ago, rossco said:

On a related note, I have your NAA working on my RPI4 now as a bit of a test, just listening on my office set-up (its usually running ropieee). I might have a listen on the main endpoint too. I wonder if I will be able to tell the difference between USBridge Sig, rpi4 or the Atom unit?? Interested to see.

 

You could also try my image on the RasPi4 instead of Ropieee.

 

Very hard to make estimates how much if any difference you will notice. I find the Atom ones most robust, but RasPi4 is certainly much better than the earlier versions.

 

[ambre]

On 5/21/2020 at 9:28 PM, Miska said:

 

The naa-411-x64 is the latest at the moment.

 

Hi Jussy,

Do i need Win10 installed first and than launch your NAA software. Like i did on MacOs instelling via terminal?

Or is abovementioned image bootable in itself? Via usb stick ?

 

Thanks in advance, Andreas

[Miska]

1 hour ago, ambre said:

Do i need Win10 installed first and than launch your NAA software. Like i did on MacOs instelling via terminal?

Or is abovementioned image bootable in itself? Via usb stick ?

 

No Windows, you just boot from it. It is complete custom built OS for this purpose.

 

[ambre]

1 minute ago, Miska said:

 

No Windows, you just boot from it. It is complete custom built OS for this purpose.

 

Thx

[vortecjr]

I looks like I found a great thread for a rainy day and guess what it's raining here all day:) I'm going to start at the beginning.... 

[vortecjr]

On 4/12/2020 at 10:44 AM, The Computer Audiophile said:

This is something I'm researching right now. I have every Rendu Sonore has made and I swear by them as the best endpoints available. However, the limitation is native DSD. Yes, native DSD works for some DACs with the Rendu series but other DACs only support their max sample rates using Windows drivers. For example, I have an Auralic Altair G1 that I'm reviewing right now and the Rendu doesn't support DSD512 when connected to it. I have to use a Windows machine with the Auralic driver for DSD512. 

 

If @vortecjr could get native DSD and higher rates like DSD512 working with more DACs, then I'd have no need to look for additional NAA windows options. I know it isn't up to Sonore, but the company has played a big role in getting more native DSD support in Linux.

Chris, we support the most number of DAC with native DSD in our category of device...hands down. This without the customer needed to do anything. In addition, we update Sonic Orbiter constantly in order to add new units. Also, while we have been back feeding the Linux community with the information needed to support these devices most of our competition has not. I know you know all this and to be clear I'm not sore about it because it's fun for me to do this this kind of work.

 

You can contact me directly about the Auralic Altair G1. As usually, I will need the complete output of Apps / DAC Diagnostics. I want to move quick on this because we are working on a new release.

 

I'm happy to assist with whatever research you have in mind.

 

Finally, thanks for the kinds words....I appreciate you!       

[vortecjr]

On 4/12/2020 at 11:16 AM, jabbr said:

 

This is, frankly, a limitation of the DAC. I have DACs with only Windows drivers, and frankly I don't use them as often, despite great SQ, because for a variety of reasons Linux is the future of network attached audio. Sonore is Linux (as they should be). Alternatively consider the ASDM7EC modulator at DSD256  

I don't place blame, but some of these DAC manufacturers are not very helpful and some are. If can add support we do what we have to to get it done. Which DAC has only a Windows driver? As far as I now the list is really short. 

[vortecjr]

On 4/12/2020 at 11:22 AM, AnotherSpin said:

 

While waiting for Miska's answers (and I believe he would suggest rather simple solutions) - there is a thread "A novel way to massively improve the SQ of computer audio streaming". Wide range of different recommendations and descriptions of practical experience of using different hardware for NAA. The thread is very long, though.

Basically any Windows computer running HQ Player / NAA and the devices ASIO driver. 

[vortecjr]

On 4/12/2020 at 1:30 PM, jabbr said:

I have built and bought a number of NAA over the years so here's my advice:

 

The NAA should be low powered. I have built several using Celeron motherboards (https://www.asrock.com/mb/Intel/Q1900M/) and added fiber optic NICs -- these also allow you to add a fancy USB card if you choose.  You can easily supply these with a linear power supply. Go for a low powered board with 2 PCIe slots -- one for the NIC (Intel x520  is popular, I also use Solarflare and Mellanox)

 

I use a Solid-Run Clearfog Base which has an SFP input. These have to be ordered from Israel and require knowledge of Linux command line etc. There is an industry of these SBCs, see: https://www.armbian.com/download/, the vast majority have an Ethernet port or two, and several USB ports.... my Clearfog Base runs Armbian Buster 20 ... when I was starting out I had to compile my own kernels to enable ALSA etc ... but its all mainline now... 

 

An Intel NUC is very popular and great. I use this for wireless. Rock solid.

 

RPI: people mod these with custom PSUs etc. They are cheap. I have several -- in fact the RPI4 is sitting right next to my NUC right now.

 

If I were purchasing a prepackaged device with minimal fuss, then I would get the Sonore opticalRendu.

I'm not against these DIY solutions. Thanks for the plug! 

[vortecjr]

On 4/13/2020 at 4:53 PM, Miska said:

There tend to be couple of challenges with ARM based platforms.

 

One is that they lack capability to describe their own hardware structure and connections. So Linux kernel needs a so called device tree file that describes this. This needs to be done by each hardware vendor who designs some kind of board around an ARM SoC. They know how things are connected together. Different hardware vendors have different quality level and response time of their Linux kernel support.

 

This leads to the second problem, which is that many times the available supported kernel is pretty old. In worst case which is also rather usual is that the kernel matches the Android kernel which is ancient. This means having kernel version 3.14 (from year 2014 - 2016), while Linux kernel is at the moment on version 5.6.

 

Intel/AMD platforms don't have this problem because they have a firmware system called ACPI that can describe the hardware configuration to the OS. Hardware manufacturers only need to place information about the hardware in their BIOS (sometimes they have bugs on this too, though). But they don't need to work on the OS at all. Then you can just pull very latest Linux kernel and start using it. Sometimes they just issue BIOS updates to fix bugs in their ACPI data or similar, however this is independent from the OS.

 

Our ARM processor...is working just fine with Linux. I can see an issue if you are building an ARM based DIY solution though.

 

We are currently running 5.x Kernels.

 

It's only a problem if there is no solution;) I'm not against people using off the shelf solutions. However, we decided on a differ approach so we have more to say on the design of the main board.  

[Miska]

On 5/25/2020 at 4:24 PM, vortecjr said:

Our ARM processor...is working just fine with Linux. I can see an issue if you are building an ARM based DIY solution though.

 

It doesn't matter if it is DIY or not if you are using the same SoC.

 

[Zauurx]

On 5/21/2020 at 3:07 PM, rossco said:

I am interested in a low powered Atom based NAA endpoint. I have a Allo USBridge Signature, and currently have Gentoo Player installed. ...

Hello Jussy, can you in future integrate the ASIX driver to use one of your images on an Allo USBridge SIG (RPI3 +)?
Currently only Gentoo allows a result without pops and cracks on DSD from HQP.

 

https://www.asix.com.tw/products.php?op=pItemdetail&PItemID=131;71;112

[bipet]

12 hours ago, Zauurx said:

Hello Jussy, can you in future integrate the ASIX driver to use one of your images on an Allo USBridge SIG (RPI3 +)?
Currently only Gentoo allows a result without pops and cracks on DSD from HQP.

 

https://www.asix.com.tw/products.php?op=pItemdetail&PItemID=131;71;112

 

This is true, I have held off getting an Atom based machine as I have found a combination using Gentoo Player which means the USB Sig no longer pops at the moment.