jabbr Posted April 13, 2020 Share Posted April 13, 2020 1 hour ago, Miska said: There tend to be couple of challenges with ARM based platforms. One is that they lack capability to describe their own hardware structure and connections. So Linux kernel needs a so called device tree file that describes this. This needs to be done by each hardware vendor who designs some kind of board around an ARM SoC. They know how things are connected together. He he, defining the device tree is itself opaque I’ve found with different tools used in different places. 1 hour ago, Miska said: Different hardware vendors have different quality level and response time of their Linux kernel support. This leads to the second problem, which is that many times the available supported kernel is pretty old. In worst case which is also rather usual is that the kernel matches the Android kernel which is ancient. This means having kernel version 3.14 (from year 2014 - 2016), while Linux kernel is at the moment on version 5.6. And you need to invoke black magic to update the firmware to boot the latest version of Armbian. You might need to know the timing on X.X version of the board you have etc etc. 1 hour ago, Miska said: Custom room treatments for headphone users. Link to comment
Jud Posted April 13, 2020 Share Posted April 13, 2020 32 minutes ago, jabbr said: Oh yes! There are a bazillion little boards whose support is all over the place — sometimes you need to 3D print a case etc etc etc. Or try to figure out how to update firmware that is from 1963 ... In other cases such as RaspberryPi, there is large enough community that you can mostly burn an SD card, plop it in and go. Intel is unquestionably more standard. Yep I was indeed talking about DIY being more of a pain with ARM (pain in the ARM?). When I had a CuBox, Miska's NAA version made specifically for it worked very nicely, but Armbian, Debian, etc., all had irritating quirks. With an Intel-based minicomputer (one of the ASUS VivoMini series), I could use Miska's NAA, or run the daemon on Debian, Ubuntu, AudioLinux, or pretty much anything else I wanted. semente 1 One never knows, do one? - Fats Waller The fairest thing we can experience is the mysterious. It is the fundamental emotion which stands at the cradle of true art and true science. - Einstein Computer, Audirvana -> optical Ethernet to Fitlet3 -> Fibbr Alpha Optical USB -> iFi NEO iDSD DAC -> Apollon Audio 1ET400A Mini (Purifi based) -> Vandersteen 3A Signature. Link to comment
Popular Post luisma Posted April 13, 2020 Popular Post Share Posted April 13, 2020 I have experimented with a few endpoints / NAA's, tried the Allo's etc., I don't like such proprietary solutions and architectures, DietPi and Allo turned out to be a dead end so like @Judd and others mentioned above I like to keep it simple with Intel. That said the best SQ I got was with older generation small mini pcs. 2014 - 2017, celerons mainly, these celerons are completely compatible with Windows, Linux, etc. of course I would not use (me personally) Windows with it, you could even get Pentium's and i3 to i7 if you want to use these as NUC's, will do PCM 384 with HQP and all its filters, these will have USB 3.0 to connect a DAC etc. the chassis will support fanless mode (most come with a fan in the bottom that could be removed, at least I do) the i5 and i7 fan cannot be removed. The chassis have fins to dissipate heat although no heatpipes inside but because these are older generation, you can add SSD's, wifi etc. but I personally just use these with a USB flash connected. These are like industrial mini pcs the BIOS is "highly" customizable, you can disable USB ports port by port, SATA, video, etc. etc. to make it even "leaner", it will take you hours to go over all the BIOS settings if you have the patience, the cost for the Celerons is around $100 give or take, you can add memory from the seller or put your own, same with SSD. The guy is very good and seems honest, I never had a problem with him. Input is 12V and consumption is 1 - 1.5 amps or less, 2.5mm female plug. Chris @The Computer Audiophile I hope I am not trespassing here, I am not in the industry, I have no interest on promoting these products so I guess am following the site guidelines here. The Computer Audiophile and 87mpi 1 1 Link to comment
jabbr Posted April 13, 2020 Share Posted April 13, 2020 2 minutes ago, luisma said: That said the best SQ I got was with older generation small mini pcs. 2014 - 2017, celerons mainly, these celerons are completely compatible with Windows, Linux, etc. of course I would not use (me personally) Windows with it, you could even get Pentium's and i3 to i7 if you want to use these as NUC's, will do PCM 384 with HQP and all its filters, these will have USB 3.0 to connect a DAC etc. the chassis will support fanless mode (most come with a fan in the bottom that could be removed, at least I do) the i5 and i7 fan cannot be removed. Yes! The Celerons baked into an ASRock mATX board will set you back $70 or so and have a couple of PCIe slots to put NICs and USB cards into. You can power via an LPS into a picoATX PSU. 87mpi 1 Custom room treatments for headphone users. Link to comment
luisma Posted April 13, 2020 Share Posted April 13, 2020 1 minute ago, jabbr said: r so and have a couple of PCIe sl That is actually nice, the mini PCs have no slots for PCI cards which is a plus, Chris was talking about using the new JCAT USB card, which provides indeed some advantages on the endpoint. Link to comment
Popular Post The Computer Audiophile Posted April 13, 2020 Popular Post Share Posted April 13, 2020 16 minutes ago, luisma said: That is actually nice, the mini PCs have no slots for PCI cards which is a plus, Chris was talking about using the new JCAT USB card, which provides indeed some advantages on the endpoint. I’ll be using both JCAT USB and NET cards with my tiny PC :~) Details to come. luisma, jabbr, 87mpi and 2 others 3 2 Founder of Audiophile Style | My Audio Systems Link to comment
asdf1000 Posted April 14, 2020 Share Posted April 14, 2020 On 4/13/2020 at 3:24 AM, Miska said: This is what I use mostly: https://up-shop.org/home/339-up-gws01w4g-memory32g-emmc-boardwo-vesa-plate.html It also works for USB input side. I may soon add also one more ARM-based board that also works for USB inputs. I went with Jussi's recommendation here very early, when he first recommended this and have been very very happy. Fanless and well supported (by Jussi). With 5Vdc input, can just power with a 5V powerbank for any critical listening - not for anything to do with 'low noise' but to avoid any mains/AC power RF / ground /leakage current issues. Link to comment
AnotherSpin Posted April 14, 2020 Share Posted April 14, 2020 Some people on the forum believe that hardware implementation for NAA must be fast and powerful enough. After following such advice I ended up with NUC7i7DNBE in a fanless Akasa Plato box powered with a Paul Hynes LPSU. I am very satisfied with the result. By some reason more powerful computing correlates with better - more natural and organic sound. In this DIY scenario, I also had an opportunity to try different NAA software solution what would be impossible with closed NAA box. Compared three different versions of the NAA endpoint image. Free, designed by Miska, as well as purchased from Euphony and Audiolinux. For this time settled on Miska's NAA image. For one reason or another, it gives the best sound, probably because it paired with HQPlayer desktop server on mac mini. 87mpi 1 Link to comment
Rexp Posted April 15, 2020 Share Posted April 15, 2020 Can the two posters above both be right? Link to comment
The Computer Audiophile Posted April 15, 2020 Share Posted April 15, 2020 1 hour ago, Rexp said: Can the two posters above both be right? Yes. Founder of Audiophile Style | My Audio Systems Link to comment
jabbr Posted April 21, 2020 Share Posted April 21, 2020 Looks like those Up Gateway devices are back ordered Has anyone tried this device as NAA? https://mitxpc.com/products/sys-e300-8d It has fiberoptic input and allows PCIe x8 card Custom room treatments for headphone users. Link to comment
The Computer Audiophile Posted April 21, 2020 Share Posted April 21, 2020 3 minutes ago, jabbr said: Looks like those Up Gateway devices are back ordered Has anyone tried this device as NAA? https://mitxpc.com/products/sys-e300-8d It has fiberoptic input and allows PCIe x8 card Cool piece of gear. Founder of Audiophile Style | My Audio Systems Link to comment
The Computer Audiophile Posted April 21, 2020 Share Posted April 21, 2020 Another brand I've always liked, in addition to Supermicro, is Jetway - https://www.jetwaycomputer.com/ Founder of Audiophile Style | My Audio Systems Link to comment
jabbr Posted April 21, 2020 Share Posted April 21, 2020 6 minutes ago, The Computer Audiophile said: Cool piece of gear. Might be except that its got fans, so ... hmm ... that mobo in a fanless case might do the trick Custom room treatments for headphone users. Link to comment
jabbr Posted April 21, 2020 Share Posted April 21, 2020 What do you think? Put this board: https://www.supermicro.com/en/products/motherboard/X10SDV-TP8F (35W TDP processor) in this case: https://hdplex.com/hdplex-h1-v3-fanless-computer-case.html and add the JCat USB card? Custom room treatments for headphone users. Link to comment
Popular Post Miska Posted April 21, 2020 Popular Post Share Posted April 21, 2020 By the way if you wonder who's behind the UpBoard, it is subsidiary of ASUS. This one just works in embedded/industrial market. The Computer Audiophile and jabbr 1 1 Signalyst - Developer of HQPlayer Pulse & Fidelity - Software Defined Amplifiers Link to comment
sledwards Posted April 21, 2020 Share Posted April 21, 2020 I am trying to install naa-411-x64 on my NUC6i5SYH. First question: Does this image work with an i5? I try to boot from a bootable USB stick and no OS is found. Please advise. Steve Link to comment
Miska Posted April 21, 2020 Share Posted April 21, 2020 1 hour ago, sledwards said: I am trying to install naa-411-x64 on my NUC6i5SYH. First question: Does this image work with an i5? I try to boot from a bootable USB stick and no OS is found. Please advise. Yes it should work just fine on your NUC. Please make sure your BIOS is largely at default settings, IOW it is trying to boot using EFI and not legacy. And that USB storage is enabled as a boot device with priority over internal storage. AnotherSpin 1 Signalyst - Developer of HQPlayer Pulse & Fidelity - Software Defined Amplifiers Link to comment
sledwards Posted April 21, 2020 Share Posted April 21, 2020 Thanks Miska. Question: When I look at the image in Explorer, I see a compressed file called core-image-naa-ramfs-intel-corei7-64.cpio.gz. Should that be compressed for this to work? Link to comment
sledwards Posted April 22, 2020 Share Posted April 22, 2020 EFI boot was the issue. All is working well. Link to comment
semente Posted April 22, 2020 Share Posted April 22, 2020 On 4/14/2020 at 12:11 AM, Jud said: Yep I was indeed talking about DIY being more of a pain with ARM (pain in the ARM?). When I had a CuBox, Miska's NAA version made specifically for it worked very nicely, but Armbian, Debian, etc., all had irritating quirks. With an Intel-based minicomputer (one of the ASUS VivoMini series), I could use Miska's NAA, or run the daemon on Debian, Ubuntu, AudioLinux, or pretty much anything else I wanted. Cubox working fine here. Cheers! Jud 1 "Science draws the wave, poetry fills it with water" Teixeira de Pascoaes HQPlayer Desktop / Mac mini → Intona 7054 → RME ADI-2 DAC FS (DSD256) Link to comment
AnotherSpin Posted April 22, 2020 Share Posted April 22, 2020 9 hours ago, sledwards said: I am trying to install naa-411-x64 on my NUC6i5SYH. First question: Does this image work with an i5? I try to boot from a bootable USB stick and no OS is found. Please advise. Steve You can also try hqplayer-embedded-4.16.0-x64.img - it has the latest NAA image and it may sound different to your ears. The routine is the same, you burn the image to USB stick. Link to comment
sledwards Posted April 22, 2020 Share Posted April 22, 2020 12 hours ago, AnotherSpin said: You can also try hqplayer-embedded-4.16.0-x64.img - it has the latest NAA image and it may sound different to your ears. The routine is the same, you burn the image to USB stick. If I already run embedded on another machine, how does booting this image know not to run NAA and not embedded? Link to comment
Crom Posted April 22, 2020 Share Posted April 22, 2020 On 4/21/2020 at 4:58 PM, jabbr said: Looks like those Up Gateway devices are back ordered Has anyone tried this device as NAA? https://mitxpc.com/products/sys-e300-8d It has fiberoptic input and allows PCIe x8 card Not as NAA but I’ve been using this in one way or another for about a year now. Good little device. Plus points for me were: - 12v DC input - easy instant upgrade - ATX power input for even better power supply upgrade potential - PCI slot space inside the case (unlike the NUC cases) - ECC RAM (sounds better in my book but I'm not getting into that) - Xeon processor (again…sounds better in my book) - Supermicro board (usually super micro boards have easily accessible clocks to upgrade. Also I think super micro boards sound good…yes, I know) - SFP (not got around to testing this yet) - 128GB RAM capacity (so I can load the whole of my Roon DB into memory using audiolinux...but see cautionary tale below) - Intel network chipset (although I’ve got a JCAT network card in the PCI slot now) Downsides: - installed fans are crappy/noisy things - Some unnecessary network sockets (currently disabled) - I’ve found it impossible to find a replacement CPU heatsink (hence I’ve left the fans in). Difficult to find mounting hole configuration. Finding one of these would allow me to disable the fans and/or put the board into a decent fanless case, as you suggest. Initially it ran my Roon Server using audiolinux until it crashed a number of times. I wrongly blamed the hardware (it was in fact the size of my Roon DB getting too big for Mono - .NET implementation on Linux - to manage. I’ve now learnt that big Roon installations are better under Windows and .NET). I swapped Roon Server onto an i7 NUC and it does benefit from the quicker CPU and windows. On the supermicro box I swapped the fans for quiet ones, it now runs HQPlayer embedded feeding a pimped up Raspberry pi NAA which feeds the DAC an I2S signal. It's not powerful enough for any fancy upsampling but does the job. I could go back to using USB - in which case I’d like to fit a clock-upgraded USB card - but I’ve found the Pi and using the I2S interface straight into the dac to be vastly superior to USB even though I can’t upsample beyond 384k on PCM and DSD is also limited. If I can solve the replacement heatsink mount problem then I'll try sticking it in a fanless case. Link to comment
AnotherSpin Posted April 22, 2020 Share Posted April 22, 2020 44 minutes ago, sledwards said: If I already run embedded on another machine, how does booting this image know not to run NAA and not embedded? In my case both standalone NAA and NAA contained in embedded image works ok with HQP desktop on other machine. I believe the sound differs slightly (even though NAA is identical, according to Miska), at least one could compare and decide easily. When only NAA used from embedded image, it is free. And, embedded image updated more often than standalone NAA. Link to comment
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