Article: Keeping It Simple - Finding Great Values In Great Sound

[bluesman]

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[bluesman]

53 minutes ago, JJinPDX said:

Okay, I've got to chime in. I don't normally post on this forum, but the topic is timely for my current angst. 

 

I love this hobby; I love music (mostly classical, jazz, some pop, some world, even some rock); I've soldered and built my own systems starting in high school, etc. I've carefully auditioned probably hundreds of combinations of gear; and I've finally settled on a NOS MA6600 integrated from McIntosh, Dynaudio Focus 140's, Bryston BDA-2 DAC, Zuma running Win10, clocking handled by a W4S Recovery, cables by known vendors (but always used), music ripped to FLAC or downloaded in a minimum of 24/96 and stored on a Synology NAS. So, you know, typical mid-fi and not bad...

 

I'm now living with the woman of my dreams who happens to love her Sonos. I have been trying very very hard to like the Sonos as well. Happy lady, happy guy. I've even purchased more Play 1's to place on the deck, etc. I've even voiced out loud that maybe I should sell my gear and buy another Play 5 for the main listening room, make a stereo pair and be done with it. (We have a Sonos Playbar + sub, 2 Play 1's, 2 Play 3's and a reconditioned Play 5, all in various rooms). So, last night I set up the two Play 3's in stereo mode and put on Mahler's 2nd. No comparison. My system easily won the "contest." So, I put the Play 5 into the fray, and even though it wasn't in stereo, it too could not handle the Mahler, although it didn't do badly with Mark Knopfler's Marbletown. But the violins and guitars even for that hurt my ears compared to my system...

 

Having said all this, I do agree that you can get 90% of the way there spending 15% of the dollars. Equipment just keeps getting better and better, and what we need to push for is to get more and more folks involved in high quality music, both recorded and live! To me that's the goal, and I absolutely love this current thread, but I also love the hobby and the forever search for satisfying reproduction. Cost is critical, but sound is more so, in my opinion. 

 

John J

 

There's a concept in economics called price elasticity of demand, John - it's a measure of change in demand for something if nothing about it changes except the price.  The other relevant economic concept here is that of substitutes, which are simply goods that can replace each other in the same use.  A substitute good with positive cross-elasticity of demand will be bought preferentially if its price is lower than the alternatives.  And the demand for any good drops when a true substitute is introduced at a lower price. 

 

The simple truth is that there are now many less costly substitutes for the vast majority of products in what you've chosen to call the mid-fi market.  Innovation, technology, and globalization have ganged up on all those 4 and 5 figure source players, amplifiers and DACs because the same sound quality is now available at a fraction of the cost in smaller and more flexible forms and products.  Part of that flexibility is being able to direct your music to systems of varying quality and complexity at the same time.  Once you decide what you want to do with and for the woman of your dreams, you have a world of choice.

 

 

Why not just put a second Play5 in your main listening room and leave your system as it is? She can play Sonos to her heart's content when you're not there with her, and you can both listen together on your main system. 

[bluesman]

3 hours ago, JJinPDX said:

Okay, I've got to chime in. I don't normally post on this forum, but the topic is timely for my current angst. 

 

I love this hobby; I love music (mostly classical, jazz, some pop, some world, even some rock); I've soldered and built my own systems starting in high school, etc. I've carefully auditioned probably hundreds of combinations of gear; and I've finally settled on a NOS MA6600 integrated from McIntosh, Dynaudio Focus 140's, Bryston BDA-2 DAC, Zuma running Win10, clocking handled by a W4S Recovery, cables by known vendors (but always used), music ripped to FLAC or downloaded in a minimum of 24/96 and stored on a Synology NAS. So, you know, typical mid-fi and not bad...

 

I'm now living with the woman of my dreams who happens to love her Sonos. I have been trying very very hard to like the Sonos as well. Happy lady, happy guy. I've even purchased more Play 1's to place on the deck, etc. I've even voiced out loud that maybe I should sell my gear and buy another Play 5 for the main listening room, make a stereo pair and be done with it. (We have a Sonos Playbar + sub, 2 Play 1's, 2 Play 3's and a reconditioned Play 5, all in various rooms). So, last night I set up the two Play 3's in stereo mode and put on Mahler's 2nd. No comparison. My system easily won the "contest." So, I put the Play 5 into the fray, and even though it wasn't in stereo, it too could not handle the Mahler, although it didn't do badly with Mark Knopfler's Marbletown. But the violins and guitars even for that hurt my ears compared to my system...

 

Having said all this, I do agree that you can get 90% of the way there spending 15% of the dollars. Equipment just keeps getting better and better, and what we need to push for is to get more and more folks involved in high quality music, both recorded and live! To me that's the goal, and I absolutely love this current thread, but I also love the hobby and the forever search for satisfying reproduction. Cost is critical, but sound is more so, in my opinion. 

 

John J

 

[WHOOPS - somehow this got partially posted above.  Sorry!!]

 

There's a concept in economics called price elasticity of demand, John - it's a measure of change in demand for something if nothing about it changes except the price.  The other relevant economic concept here is that of substitutes, which are simply goods that can replace each other in the same use.  A substitute good with positive cross-elasticity of demand will be bought preferentially if its price is lower than the alternatives.  And the demand for any good drops when a true substitute is introduced at a lower price. 

The simple truth is that there are now many less costly substitutes for the vast majority of products in what you've chosen to call the mid-fi market.  Innovation, technology, and globalization have ganged up on all those huge, heavy 4 and 5 figure source players, amplifiers and DACs because the same or better sound quality is now available at a fraction of the cost in smaller and more flexible forms and products.  Once you decide what you want to do with and for the woman of your dreams, you have a world of choice.  Supply of substitutes for those expensive monsters of old is high and growing, thanks to cross-elasticity of demand.

 

I assume you've already set up Sonos to access your NAS - if you haven't, do it now.  One simple alternative is to put a second Play5 in your main listening room and leave your big system as it is. The WOYD can play Sonos to her heart's content when you're not there with her, and you can both listen together to the same source material on your main system to alleviate your suffering.  You'd just have to tolerate lesser SQ elsewhere in the house, but that's probably a lot easier than finding another WOYD  

 

You could certainly sell your current stuff and put a wonderful new system together for what you get.  Your Mac is probably still worth well over $3k if it's in good shape and you still have the remote. You can get equal or better SQ (at least, in my opinion and experience) for what you'd get for the Mac from a NuPrime IDA-16 (about $1700) or any of a number of integrated amps from Arcam, Peachtree, NAD, Yamaha etc. Even the $600 PS Audio Sprout 100 is a seriously fine amp.  As good as your Bryston DAC is, you might want to get into higher res.  Pieces like the Sprout and the NuPrime IDA-16 are all digital (i.e. the DAC is pat of the device) and they do DSD.  I can't honestly say that DSD itself is a life changer. but the new recordings now available in native DSD seem to me to be better conceived, engineered, made, and produced than many remastered releases of commercial recordings.  And excellent classical releases abound.

 

By Zuma, I assume that you mean a C.A.P.S. Zuma, which is still a good source.  But you could make yourself a simple renderer / streamer / player from a Raspberry Pi for under $100 total and see how it compares to the Zuma - if it's as good or better, sell the Zuma too.  I have multiple Raspberry Pis with different players driving systems throughout our living space, and they're all excellent.  For my server, I built a NUC running Roon ROCK - and it's simply stellar.  And I'm currently running DACs from Ifi (DSD - $135), SMSL (DSD - $250), Emotiva (24/192 - $500), and Pioneer Elite (MC 24/192 in a 7.1 receiver).

 

Cost certainly remains a critical factor in decision support for audiophiles - but it's now a fraction of its former self and SQ is better than ever.  The above suggestions barely scratch the surface of the bold new world that awaits you.  Enjoy!!!

[bluesman]

1 hour ago, JJinPDX said:

I've seriously thought of moving it to my hangar and getting something like a NUC with Roon on it. What I want is something that, if the power goes down it boots up by itself and all is fine. No more logging in to Win10. It just works.

 

That's exactly what the NUC with ROCK does - I haven't touched it since I set it up about 6 months ago.  Unlike my Win10 PC, it updates itself in the background without letting me know about it. I couldn't recommend this more highly.

 

I brought up elasticity of price largely to point out the vulnerability of pieces like your Mac (and many items on my closet shelf) to the growing availability of better stuff for less money.  Even now, its resale value is more dependent on buyers' love of Macintosh than on its sound quality.  Similarly, Sonos can get their price for what you and I agree is marginal SQ because of the convenience and relative simplicity they offer.  Many friends have house-wide Sonos and love it.  

 

My wife is like your friend's wife - she has never put on our sound systems for herself in 47 years of marriage.  I recently set up Alexa to do this for her by adding the House Band skill, so we can say "Alexa - call house band; play XXX in zone Y" and JRMC plays what is asked in the requested room(s).  I don't know how to make it any easier than that  

[bluesman]

1 hour ago, ednaz said:

Are you running both JRiver and Roon on the NUC? I looked at House Band and it doesn't say it works with Roon. (I've never had any luck with both Roon and JRiver live at the same time... they get into arguments about controlling output to my main system.) I see on Roon that several people have built their own Alexa voice control for Roon, including turning their entire system on and off, while Roon officially claims it's too hard to do.

 

No. The NUC is a dedicated Roon server and my main source for listening at home. I have JRMC on multiple Pis and a Win10 PC, so I can stream externally for travel. Roon is still LAN-only as far as I know.

 

I hoped that my wife would use Alexa to play music on JR, but that hope was dashed on the rocks like a skiff in a nor’easter. So I showed her how to ask Al to play music through her own speaker from Amazon Music.  Hasn’t happened yet.

[bluesman]

3 hours ago, elpampeano said:

Cheers from Argentina.

 

Many thanks!  We love Argentina - we were in Buenos Aires three years ago and Mendoza last November.  As long as my wife can sit and sip a Fernet Branca & Coca Lite, she'll listen to music for hours with me!