Horns - what do you think about them ? Advantages and shortcomings?

[semente]

12 hours ago, Lone Mountain Audio said:

SO much of this for consumer is truly preference and that is totally okay.  I am truly not saying someone should not like them.  BUT there is a lot of information not correctly presented as it relates to cone/dome systems.  This has nothing to do with ATC and everything to do with old tech vs new tech.   

 

A great system with linear response should sound the same at all levels, not have any kind of volume dependent distortion other than clipping.   This is a very important value in the studio and is true well beyond ATC.  Horn loaded systems (something like an original Klipschorn) are not present in any studio I have ever been in LA or Nashville.  To say modern cone/dome systems have more distortion as a class compared to horns is just not the case anymore.  Maybe in 1970, maybe even in 1975?  But with advent of speakers that addressed issues like phase (the Dahlquist DQ 10 and KEF 104) things have advanced a LOT since then.  Odd order harmonic distortion in modern woofers is in the neighborhood of 30dB-45dB lower than it was in the DQ 10 days.  Midrange distortion, especially in the vocal range is drastically lower as well.  Dispersion is much more consistent horizontally and much less energy is wasted spraying HF all over the ceiling and floor.  Electronics have improved also, active systems reduce crossover distortion (passive crossover) by a huge amount, improve on phase control (creating linear phase system), and many other much smaller issues have been engineered out to create incredible realism.

 

Brad

www.lonemountainaudio.com

www.transaudiogroup.com

ATC Importer to the US

 

 

 

Any competent large studio monitor will have controlled dispersion and low distortion, not just ATCs. Some actually produce smoother on- and off-axis response and lower distortion at high levels. Some passive consumer speakers also produce both on- and off-axis response that just as smooth (Dynaudio, Kef, PSB, Revel, etc.).

 

 

As for competent large horns, I suggest that you listen to some Avant Garde or Cessaro setups. I think that your references (vintage Klipsch or JBL models) are way out of date.

 

Horns allow you to use far less powerful amplifiers with simpler circuits and have even better-controlled narrower directivity than waveguides.

https://www.stereophile.com/content/avantgarde-acoustic-uno-nano-loudspeaker-measurements

 

And compression drivers require exceedingly little excursion to achive normal listening levels.

 

But they should be at least 4-way and driven actively.

 

 

[STC]

1 hour ago, semente said:

 

I think that @Lone Mountain Audio is referring to compression/distortion, not frequency response flatness.

 

Soundstage/MRC measure speakers linearity at 90dB/2m and 95dB/2m:.

This is the Monitor Audio PL100:

 

 

Chart 4 - Deviation from Linearity at 90dB and Above

Difference @ 90dB, 50Hz - 20kHz (measured @ 2m)

Curve: difference from 70dB at 90dB

Difference @ 95dB, 50Hz - 20kHz (measured @ 2m)

Curve: difference from 70dB at 90dB

 

An explanation of the measurement:

 

Deviation from Linearity

• Deviation from linearity - Measured with a frequency sweep across the audible spectrum on axis at 2 meters.
  
  Purpose: Shows how a speaker is stressed and if it compresses at certain frequencies as the sound-pressure level is increased.
  
  What it tells you:  As volume increases, all frequencies should rise at the same rate. However, as a speaker is stressed, compression will occur at certain frequencies. The stress may be mechanical, thermal or otherwise. This test shows those frequencies at which deviation occurs as a result of compression. Many speakers show slight deviations at 90dB. Most speakers start to show serious deviations at 95dB. Very few speakers can be tested at 100dB without damage.

 

At that level it doesn’t matter any longer. Average level in room listening is around 75dB. The peaks can go above 100dB. On continuous high spl level the ear mechanism would work hard to minimize the damage to ears and I doubt you would hear the few dB difference. 

 

As I said, it looks good on brochure.  

[semente]

1 hour ago, STC said:

 

At that level it doesn’t matter any longer. Average level in room listening is around 75dB. The peaks can go above 100dB. On continuous high spl level the ear mechanism would work hard to minimize the damage to ears and I doubt you would hear the few dB difference. 

 

As I said, it looks good on brochure.  

 

I agree with that.

[STC]

1 hour ago, semente said:

 

I agree with that.

 

Ricardo, during mastering they do play at max volume to look for distortion. Not sure why, maybe to make sure they would sound good in high spl environment. 

 

Meanwhile, over here, we have ‘experts’ mastering from master files using Roger speakers. These CDs are collectible and I have no idea why. 

[Lone Mountain Audio]

11 hours ago, STC said:

 

Yes but how much of those you can identify without side by side comparisons. On paper they look good but how much of it really audible enough to be categorized as bad?

 

Well in the world I work in, you can hear a LOT of that.  Comparing "the best" of the conventional speakers of the 70s vs the best of conventional speakers of today sounds like a blanket has been removed from the 70s speaker.  The comparison between a Yamaha NS10, or old Advent or even a DQ10  vs today is dramatic. In truth its the distortion that's been reduced and all those different driver, crossover and phase distortions are perceived as a "masking" distortion that obscure details.  

 

I have forgotten to mention one partial horn based system that has seen some high end pro use (mastering) in the 90s and 2000's:  Kinoshita.  I did see a pair installed at Glenn Meadows mastering room in Nashville at Emerald.  They are long gone now (10yrs+?) and the main sales outlet for them to this type of client has switched to a different brand.

 

Brad

www.lonemountainaudio.com

www.transaudiogroup.com

ATC importer 

[Lone Mountain Audio]

7 hours ago, STC said:

 

At that level it doesn’t matter any longer. Average level in room listening is around 75dB. The peaks can go above 100dB. On continuous high spl level the ear mechanism would work hard to minimize the damage to ears and I doubt you would hear the few dB difference. 

 

As I said, it looks good on brochure.  

I don't agree with that- it does matter.  

 

Your statement is confusing-at 100dB SPL continuous a lot of things are different but I do not know many left that work that loud.     At the levels these studio guys are working (85dB or so) you can hear a LOT.  I know mixers that can hear a 1/2 dB of change in EQ of one element of a mix at 85dB.  

 

Thank you Semente-I WAS referring to distortion changing at different levels would mean "a non linear system".  Your post about Monitor Audio product changing performance with level is spot on and applicable to nearly everything- drivers on horns, cones, domes, ribbons.  

 

Brad

www.lonemountainaudio.com

www.transaudiogroup.com

[fas42]

Kinoshita? Ahh, Rey Audio ... some every nice examples out there ...

 

 

[semente]

20 hours ago, fas42 said:

Rey Audio ... some every nice examples out there ...

 

That's not a good example of high-performance horns.

 

Try these 4-way horn-loaded speakers + subs instead for proper horns:

 

 

[fas42]

Agree fully with you about Living Voice being one of those at the top of the heap - but note they have the advantage of having a very skillfully assembled set of electronics, battery driven by an industrial sized setup, at the front end.

 

At their best, they are indeed superb - but I could also point to YouTube clips where they are quite subpar; as always, the level of attention paid to getting them fully firing is critical.

[acg]

And Living Voice use some drivers (Vitavox  AK151 15" woofer and Vitavox S2 1.5" compression driver) that are virtually unchanged since they started production about 70 years ago.  You can still buy them new today, and have your old ones serviced at the factory.  

 

I have S2 pairs from the early '60's and the mid '80's, both sets refurbished by the factory in the UK.  Stunning SQ when used well...

[fas42]

Yes, don't you love the way audio has come so far in 70 years ... .

[acg]

Yes, that statement is a bit tongue-in-cheek of course.  Thanks to much research and technological development there is not so much shooting in the dark these days when chasing sound quality, and the quality of electronics is so far ahead of 1940 it is not funny, especially when modern parts and techniques are applied to some of those original circuits......or perhaps more accurately those circuits are adapted to modern capabilities.

 

Huge horns and triodes do not necessarily equal audio nirvana...but they certainly can.

[Lone Mountain Audio]

Vita Vox is a Military equipment company- they make sound equipment for submarines and battleships!  Wow!

 

Brad

[fas42]

If you want to go into lust mode, just type "vitavox" in Google Images ...

[Lone Mountain Audio]

fas42-that's like a trip to a museum!  Looks like old Patricians, Altecs, Klipsch corner horns and way old multicells (the first attempt at better directivity, less narrowing).  Unreal that a company like that still exists.  You've surprised me!  Some of those images were of product from the 40s!

 

 

Brad

[Summit]

On 6/26/2019 at 4:14 PM, Lone Mountain Audio said:

 

Well in the world I work in, you can hear a LOT of that.  Comparing "the best" of the conventional speakers of the 70s vs the best of conventional speakers of today sounds like a blanket has been removed from the 70s speaker.  The comparison between a Yamaha NS10, or old Advent or even a DQ10  vs today is dramatic. In truth its the distortion that's been reduced and all those different driver, crossover and phase distortions are perceived as a "masking" distortion that obscure details.  

 

I have forgotten to mention one partial horn based system that has seen some high end pro use (mastering) in the 90s and 2000's:  Kinoshita.  I did see a pair installed at Glenn Meadows mastering room in Nashville at Emerald.  They are long gone now (10yrs+?) and the main sales outlet for them to this type of client has switched to a different brand.

 

Brad

www.lonemountainaudio.com

www.transaudiogroup.com

ATC importer 

 

It is difficult, not to say impossible, to make a fair comparison between a loudspeaker made in the 70's and a completely new speaker. The main problem is that material ages and when they do, the speaker or amplifier will sounds much worse than when it was new.

 

It is true that cabinets, filters etc. generally have become better, but I do not think the tech development is as prominent with horn speakers. Listen to a horn made after Jean Hiraga's sketches or one of Western Electric's old horn speakers from the 40's and compare them with conventional modern Wilson, Magico speakers, and so on. Yes Wilson, Magico etc may sound better in many ways, but do they sound as alive and kicking?

 

All speaker principles have their advantages and shortcomings and which one fits you or me depends on many factors; such as preference, music genres, listening level, the room and the audio system. All of this factors are basis for choosing the “right” type of speaker for you and me.

 

Without going into different speakers' advantages and disadvantages, I just want to say that if you are looking for fast, dynamic and uncompressed sound reproduction then I have personally never heard a box speaker, electrostatic or dipole speaker that makes those parameters better than a good horn speaker.

 

Good horn speakers can be very revealing. Yes all the better speakers are of course revealing, but horn speakers with their super-fast drivers and high sensitivity are in a completely different class, which means that amplifiers and sources that may sound good in other setups may not sound as good with horns.

IMO

[bagwell359]

Horns do great with dynamics, and jazz, and JP Sousa.

 

Joni Mitchell sounds like she has a head cold however, and if we are talking k-horns, solo violins are now 24' wide.  Not for me.

 

1.  Ribbons 1b: AMT 1 😄 domes

2.  E-stat

3. Magnostatic

4. Dynamic (woofs and mids only)

 

 

[bagwell359]

On 6/26/2019 at 10:14 AM, Lone Mountain Audio said:

 

Well in the world I work in, you can hear a LOT of that.  Comparing "the best" of the conventional speakers of the 70s vs the best of conventional speakers of today sounds like a blanket has been removed from the 70s speaker.  The comparison between a Yamaha NS10, or old Advent or even a DQ10  vs today is dramatic. In truth its the distortion that's been reduced and all those different driver, crossover and phase distortions are perceived as a "masking" distortion that obscure details.  

 

I have forgotten to mention one partial horn based system that has seen some high end pro use (mastering) in the 90s and 2000's:  Kinoshita.  I did see a pair installed at Glenn Meadows mastering room in Nashville at Emerald.  They are long gone now (10yrs+?) and the main sales outlet for them to this type of client has switched to a different brand.

 

Brad

www.lonemountainaudio.com

www.transaudiogroup.com

ATC importer 

 

I'm willing to bet if the DQ-10's are later 4 driver ones w/ Sequerra ribbons, that if the crossover has been redone in the past 10 years with audiophile caps, the woofers reconed, and midrange rebuilt (they go out of alignment if over driven) then they would blow away 80% of the stock in a big time high end shop.  A good 1/4 of the DQ 10's I've seen the past 15 years are taken care of to this degree.

 

Most of the Quads and Apogees from the very early 80's would show well too.