Horns - what do you think about them ? Advantages and shortcomings?

[miguelito]

31 minutes ago, STC said:

 

Horns are not suitable for near field monitoring/mastering. 

I’d agree with that.

[semente]

3 hours ago, STC said:

 

Horns are not suitable for near field monitoring/mastering. 

 

That too.

[STC]

There are some confusion going on in other threads regarding horn speakers. JBL M2 is not a horn speaker by design. There is a difference between horn used as waveguide and horn for efficiency although horn speakers will have some sort of waveguide principles incorporated in them. 

 

 

[TubeLover]

On 6/21/2019 at 11:42 AM, miguelito said:

I use horns in my system. Part of the reason is that, since I was a kid, I have lusted after the Audio Note Ongaku amplifier, and I had to find appropriate speakers for it. About 20 years ago I listened to some Avantgarde horns powered by a Wavac tube amp, and that sold me completely on them. I got my Ongaku and Avantgarde’s in 2013 (pics in the link in my signature).

 

Pros:

- DYNAMICS... They play any level effortlessly, never ever strain - this is because the horn is an impedance matcher between small displacement/high pressure at the driver to the large displacement/low pressure in your room.

- Directionality... Room is less involved, they are fairly directional so you do need to place them such that they point in the long direction of the room if you can

- Can work with low power amps... Cheat note: the subs in each of my horns are self-powered by a massive amp

 

Cons:

- Space... They need space. I cannot sit anywhere closer than say 12ft from mine - they want a large room

- Heavy and large... They are very large themselves in terms of the space they take (and heavy, mine weight ~ 280 lbs)

Congrastulations on owning such a superb system, Miguelito! An Ongaku and AvantGarde horns is not only a match made in heaven, I'm not sure it could possibly be bettered in any way. The quality of music in your setting must be absolutely remarkable.

 

JC

[Lone Mountain Audio]

On 6/22/2019 at 6:11 AM, semente said:

 

Because they're big and very expensive, not because engineers can't hear the details.

 

No-not true I'm afraid.  I work within the top studios throughout the country and not a single one I can think of relies on horn based monitoring for mixing other than hip hop or R+B.  Horns based systems are used because they can reach very high SPL, not for low distortion.  JBL M2's are in a few rooms, but mostly Dolby ATMOS rooms.  George Ausperger is a very famous studio designer, now in his 80s, that did a lot of studio builds and designs in the 70s and 80s and 90s and these were all horn based.  Rock Roll artists like to hear it played back loud.  These systems can reach 140dB SPL.  Most mixers cannot work that loud anymore.   

 

The top high resolution recordists (DSD) do not use horns (Michael Bishop for example).  It's all lower SPL conventional cone/dome driver speakers, all active.   

 

Library of Congress, editing everything in media (voice, music and video) for archiving uses ATC 150 ASL as well.  No horns.  

 

Brad

[Lone Mountain Audio]

19 hours ago, STC said:

There are some confusion going on in other threads regarding horn speakers. JBL M2 is not a horn speaker by design. There is a difference between horn used as waveguide and horn for efficiency although horn speakers will have some sort of waveguide principles incorporated in them. 

 

 

You mean, M2 is not a fully horn based design (meaning all transducers are horn based)?  

A waveguide is not necessarily a horn, but a modern horn almost always have waveguide principles involved.

 

Brad     

[semente]

23 minutes ago, Lone Mountain Audio said:

 

No-not true I'm afraid.  I work within the top studios throughout the country and not a single one I can think of relies on horn based monitoring for mixing other than hip hop or R+B.  Horns based systems are used because they can reach very high SPL, not for low distortion.  JBL M2's are in a few rooms, but mostly Dolby ATMOS rooms.  George Ausperger is a very famous studio designer, now in his 80s, that did a lot of studio builds and designs in the 70s and 80s and 90s and these were all horn based.  Rock Roll artists like to hear it played back loud.  These systems can reach 140dB SPL.  Most mixers cannot work that loud anymore.   

 

The top high resolution recordists (DSD) do not use horns (Michael Bishop for example).  It's all lower SPL conventional cone/dome driver speakers, all active.   

 

Library of Congress, editing everything in media (voice, music and video) for archiving uses ATC 150 ASL as well.  No horns.  

 

Brad

 

Yes, I understand that you are an ATC dealer or distributor and it looks like you're pitching a bit...

 

How many of those engineers in top studios have listenned to high performance ≥4-way horns?

I am more inclined to accept @STCs suggestion as most probable cause, followed by price and size:

 

On 6/22/2019 at 2:14 PM, STC said:

 

Horns are not suitable for near field monitoring/mastering. 

 

I'm not sure whether @The Computer Audiophile requires that you register or at least mention your business affiliation.

 

 

[DuckToller]

59 minutes ago, Lone Mountain Audio said:

 

No-not true I'm afraid.  I work within the top studios throughout the country and not a single one I can think of relies on horn based monitoring for mixing other than hip hop or R+B.  Horns based systems are used because they can reach very high SPL, not for low distortion.  JBL M2's are in a few rooms, but mostly Dolby ATMOS rooms.  George Ausperger is a very famous studio designer, now in his 80s, that did a lot of studio builds and designs in the 70s and 80s and 90s and these were all horn based.  Rock Roll artists like to hear it played back loud.  These systems can reach 140dB SPL.  Most mixers cannot work that loud anymore.   

 

The top high resolution recordists (DSD) do not use horns (Michael Bishop for example).  It's all lower SPL conventional cone/dome driver speakers, all active.   

 

Library of Congress, editing everything in media (voice, music and video) for archiving uses ATC 150 ASL as well.  No horns.  

 

Brad

@Lone Mountain Audio

Brad, thank you very much for your contribution in this thread.

As thread stater I'd like to support @semente 's  suggestion to show openly your trade affiliation. MoT usually use their signature to inform forum members about this.

Best, Tom

[fas42]

A horn, or efficient speaker is not there just because "you want it loud!" - what is possible is to assemble a playback setup which can go from the point of near inaudibility, in terms of the gain setting, to as intense as live, acoustic music making can produce - there's no "sweet spot" in the volume, what you hear retains the same tonality, integrity, sense of liveness, as you sweep through that full SPL range.

 

Typical rigs often have a highly limited volume range where they're tolerable, or interesting to listen to for extended periods - the flaws in the playback are too obvious at other volume settings, and hence can't be used.

[STC]

8 hours ago, Lone Mountain Audio said:

Library of Congress, editing everything in media (voice, music and video) for archiving uses ATC 150 ASL as well.  No horns.  

 

The choice of the speakers used by recording studios is not always based on SQ. It depends much on the need, pricing, sponsorship, discounts and others. 

 

Speaking of ATC, why are there two versions of the speakers? Are you telling the audiophiles in this forum that they use same Hifi modals in the studio? If not, what’s the difference between ATC’s pro and Hifi version?  

[semente]

2 hours ago, STC said:

The choice of the speakers used by recording studios is not always based on SQ. It depends much on the need, pricing, sponsorship, discounts and others.

 

After sales service is probably very important.

 

2 hours ago, STC said:

Speaking of ATC, why are there two versions of the speakers? Are you telling the audiophiles in this forum that they use same Hifi modals in the studio? If not, what’s the difference between ATC’s pro and Hifi version?  

 

Perhaps in a new thread dedicated to ATC loudspeakers?

[STC]

4 hours ago, semente said:

After sales service is probably very important.

 

And also speakers meant for studios do go low. 

[Lone Mountain Audio]

18 hours ago, semente said:

 

Yes, I understand that you are an ATC dealer or distributor and it looks like you're pitching a bit...

 

How many of those engineers in top studios have listenned to high performance ≥4-way horns?

I am more inclined to accept @STCs suggestion as most probable cause, followed by price and size:

 

 

I'm not sure whether @The Computer Audiophile requires that you register or at least mention your business affiliation.

 

 

Well I actually did that on my sign up and profile- but upon your question is completely fair.  I just revisited my public profile and see its not noted in any version other readers might see.   I can fix it through signature?   I agree it should be clear and there is no attempt to conceal.  I am actually quite interested in this subject and home audio especially.  

 

Horns, I've had a lot of experience with horns.  Worked in commercial audio all through the 80s.  In the 90s, national of JBL systems group (big large PA type horns) and national at JBL cinema (smaller higher fidelity horns). Since 2001 importing ATC pro and then ATC consumer began about 4-5 years ago.  Now I deal with the major commercial studios and mastering rooms across the county, most of them in LA and Nashville.  I am lucky as I get to talk to people who are actually making a living at making records. 

 

Yes you could say that I favor cone/dome systems but certainly not because I am ATC.  I have seen the engineering, talked to the engineers in product development and have listened to a an awful lot of product  over the years.  I see what people use everywhere- in pro- in cinema, in movie mixing, scoring, mastering, etc. There's a lot of different brands in play in the pro industry;  pro brands using horns for studio monitoring are extremely rare, except very low cost JBL monitors (7000 series used in post) or DSP based JBL monitors (M1s and M2 s used for mixing).  

 

Brad

www.LoneMountainAudio.com

www.TransAudioGroup.com 

ATC importer 

[Lone Mountain Audio]

11 hours ago, STC said:

 

The choice of the speakers used by recording studios is not always based on SQ. It depends much on the need, pricing, sponsorship, discounts and others. 

 

Speaking of ATC, why are there two versions of the speakers? Are you telling the audiophiles in this forum that they use same Hifi modals in the studio? If not, what’s the difference between ATC’s pro and Hifi version?  

 

Across the breadth of "all studios" your statement is probably true, but that includes beginners buying at Guitar Center, amateurs who've got some clients but work in bedroom studios, part time and full time traveling engineers, and high end commercial rooms.  Its quite similar to consumer: everyone has their own opinion about SQ  or "SQ for the money" so choices made for SQ are all over the map.  AS you get to higher and higher parts of the market, especially the major commercial rooms, the SQ choices narrow considerably.  When you get in to the Hip Hop market,  it is purely about "SQ at high SPL", usually Augsperger horn based systems.

 

The pro ATC is low cost cabinets -flat black MDF.  The consumer is obviously prettier Veneered cabs, with different packaging (towers) to fit a different need.  Sonically they are not different but the veneer is quite costly.

 

Brad

www.lonemountainaudio.com

www.transaudiogroup.com

Importer (ATC plus others)

    

 

 

[Lone Mountain Audio]

20 hours ago, semente said:

 

Yes, I understand that you are an ATC dealer or distributor and it looks like you're pitching a bit...

 

How many of those engineers in top studios have listenned to high performance ≥4-way horns?

I am more inclined to accept @STCs suggestion as most probable cause, followed by price and size:

 

 

I'm not sure whether @The Computer Audiophile requires that you register or at least mention your business affiliation.

 

 

I checked my signature in my profile, all the info is there and has been.  Why does it not show on posts?  I also talked to Chris when I signed up to let him know who I was.  So I have addressed this, but it appears I need to manual enter my info on each post.

 

How many of those engineers have listened to high performance horns?  Not sure, I would bet its a very very small number of them.  No one is promoting an all horn based playback monitor for studio work that I am aware of.   Ocean Way monitors are also out there, they have a Mid horn, but this is a rare beast.  It's the speaker Alan Sides built a long time ago and still sells a few of.  When he sold Ocean Way, the new owner United (LA Oceanway) bought cone/dome driver systems for the control room's meter bridge.  Oceanway Nashville also bought cone/dome driver systems for the control rooms meter bridge as well.  Oceanway Nashville is now owned by Belmont University as combo teaching studio/commercial studio.

 

Brad

www.lonemountainaudio.com

www.transaudiogroup.com

 

 

   

 

 

 

[DuckToller]

2 hours ago, Lone Mountain Audio said:

I checked my signature in my profile, all the info is there and has been.  Why does it not show on posts?  I also talked to Chris when I signed up to let him know who I was.  So I have addressed this, but it appears I need to manual enter my info on each post.

Thank you Brad,

all affiliations are back to be visible ...
Best, Tom

[STC]

8 hours ago, Lone Mountain Audio said:

The pro ATC is low cost cabinets -flat black MDF.  The consumer is obviously prettier Veneered cabs, with different packaging (towers) to fit a different need.  Sonically they are not different but the veneer is quite costly.

 

I see that ATC make no distinction.  In fact, I don’t see the recommended minimum distance published anywhere by ATC. I wonder what’s the response like at 5 ft?  

 

AFAIK, there can be as much as two different speakers in a top class recording studio. One for mixing and one for mastering where high SPL is important.  Things might after changed a lot since the 70s now. 

 

Lately, there seemed to be pro speakers capable of wearing two hats at the same time. I hope they are not mere Jacks of many applications. 

 

My earlier response here was about horn speakers and nearfield.   Horn speakers requires distance based on the size of horn mouth. The big once need at least several meters for the correct response to materialize. 

 

JBL M2 is not a full range horn speaker but looking at some of the reviews they included them as horn speakers so I guess I should let it be so for the benefit of the industry.   

 

 

 

 

[semente]

3 hours ago, STC said:

JBL M2 is not a full range horn speaker but looking at some of the reviews they included them as horn speakers so I guess I should let it be so for the benefit of the industry.

 

The M2 isn't horn-loaded as far as I know, it uses a dual diapraghm compression driver and that large thing is a wave guide.

Design goals seem to have been loudness and dispersion.

I would definitely not call them high performance horns.

I've never listened to a pair.

[STC]

5 hours ago, semente said:

 

The M2 isn't horn-loaded as far as I know, it uses a dual diapraghm compression driver and that large thing is a wave guide.

Design goals seem to have been loudness and dispersion.

I would definitely not call them high performance horns.

I've never listened to a pair.

 

The M2 was never meant for home consumers. The waveguide horn was used for the tweeter which was crossed at 800Hz. My understanding of horn speakers is that it produce all the freq except for the LF. 

 

I have listened to them and really liked the accuracy of the speakers. The same clarity as the TAD ( the first reference modal). 

 

 I also like the ATC but I think I bought the Harbeth because IIRC, I found the ATC a little too bright for me. 

[Summit]

JBL Synthesis 1400 Array is good and can be bought used at a good price.  

[Lone Mountain Audio]

SO much of this for consumer is truly preference and that is totally okay.  I am truly not saying someone should not like them.  BUT there is a lot of information not correctly presented as it relates to cone/dome systems.  This has nothing to do with ATC and everything to do with old tech vs new tech.   

 

A great system with linear response should sound the same at all levels, not have any kind of volume dependent distortion other than clipping.   This is a very important value in the studio and is true well beyond ATC.  Horn loaded systems (something like an original Klipschorn) are not present in any studio I have ever been in LA or Nashville.  To say modern cone/dome systems have more distortion as a class compared to horns is just not the case anymore.  Maybe in 1970, maybe even in 1975?  But with advent of speakers that addressed issues like phase (the Dahlquist DQ 10 and KEF 104) things have advanced a LOT since then.  Odd order harmonic distortion in modern woofers is in the neighborhood of 30dB-45dB lower than it was in the DQ 10 days.  Midrange distortion, especially in the vocal range is drastically lower as well.  Dispersion is much more consistent horizontally and much less energy is wasted spraying HF all over the ceiling and floor.  Electronics have improved also, active systems reduce crossover distortion (passive crossover) by a huge amount, improve on phase control (creating linear phase system), and many other much smaller issues have been engineered out to create incredible realism.

 

Brad

www.lonemountainaudio.com

www.transaudiogroup.com

ATC Importer to the US

 

 

[fas42]

Speaking of TAD, the room for this brand was packed solid with people at the last audio show I went to, like a pub on Friday night, . And the SQ fitted it perfectly - powerhouse 'pro' sound; you knew you were being hit in the head with bigtime stuff. An all TAD setup, with a couple of the head honchos from the company in Japan in person, overseeing it all.

 

I couldn't get out of the room fast enough ... .

 

 

Oh yes, I'm sure the technical performance was close to "perfect" ... shame I couldn't enjoy it, .

[STC]

8 hours ago, Lone Mountain Audio said:

A great system with linear response should sound the same at all levels

 

The ears do not hear linearly at different level.

[STC]

9 hours ago, Lone Mountain Audio said:

But with advent of speakers that addressed issues like phase (the Dahlquist DQ 10 and KEF 104) things have advanced a LOT since then.  Odd order harmonic distortion in modern woofers is in the neighborhood of 30dB-45dB lower than it was in the DQ 10 days.  Midrange distortion, especially in the vocal range is drastically lower as well.  Dispersion is much more consistent horizontally and much less energy is wasted spraying HF all over the ceiling and floor.  Electronics have improved also, active systems reduce crossover distortion (passive crossover) by a huge amount, improve on phase control (creating linear phase system), and many other much smaller issues have been engineered out to create incredible realism.

 

Yes but how much of those you can identify without side by side comparisons. On paper they look good but how much of it really audible enough to be categorized as bad?

[semente]

3 hours ago, STC said:

 

The ears do not hear linearly at different level.

 

I think that @Lone Mountain Audio is referring to compression/distortion, not frequency response flatness.

 

Soundstage/MRC measure speakers linearity at 90dB/2m and 95dB/2m:.

This is the Monitor Audio PL100:

 

 

Chart 4 - Deviation from Linearity at 90dB and Above

Difference @ 90dB, 50Hz - 20kHz (measured @ 2m)

Curve: difference from 70dB at 90dB

Difference @ 95dB, 50Hz - 20kHz (measured @ 2m)

Curve: difference from 70dB at 90dB

 

An explanation of the measurement:

 

Deviation from Linearity

• Deviation from linearity - Measured with a frequency sweep across the audible spectrum on axis at 2 meters.
  
  Purpose: Shows how a speaker is stressed and if it compresses at certain frequencies as the sound-pressure level is increased.
  
  What it tells you:  As volume increases, all frequencies should rise at the same rate. However, as a speaker is stressed, compression will occur at certain frequencies. The stress may be mechanical, thermal or otherwise. This test shows those frequencies at which deviation occurs as a result of compression. Many speakers show slight deviations at 90dB. Most speakers start to show serious deviations at 95dB. Very few speakers can be tested at 100dB without damage.