Horns - what do you think about them ? Advantages and shortcomings?

[DuckToller]

Bonjour,
5 years ago I had a private conversation with one member of our forum from Aruba, who told me had "built a set of Kirishima horns", which I filed then under interesting but esoteric DIY pleasure, because I had no valid idea about music reproduction from horns whatsoever (my ignorance, I need to admit).
Fast forward to Munich High End 2019, where I visited by chance 3 manufacturer exhibiting different types of horns speaker systems: Stein Audio, Acapella Audio Arts (@Hifi Deluxe) and Avantgarde Acoustic, which were best of show for Chris at AXPONA 2019.

The first sensation I recall for all of them was their vibrating and involving sound, profiting not only from powerful active bass support, but from their extraordinary efficient use of the drivers velocity, and hence their unparalleled dynamic pressure. It left me very involved with the musical performances I've heard, Dominique Fils-Aime's "Birds", one "Wish you were here"- cover version from a Spanish ska-combo plus  "Another brick in the wall Pt 1",  actually I am still left stunned every time I look & listen to the video sequences I made. This experience made me quite curious to hear something from the experts in this forum about their horn adventures!

What are your experiences with Horn speaker systems?  
What are the everyday use advantages?
Did you personally analyze/notice/feel any shortcomings using horn speaker (systems) in your setup?
What are your suggestions for amplification?
What could possibly be better?
Thank you in advance for your interesting contributions.
Cheers, Tom
 

[semente]

They're very large and very expensive. Each horn/way cannot cover more than two octaves. This means at least 3-way + sub. Ideally actively driven.

Excellent transient response, low distortion (requires advanced profile Tractrix, Le Cleac'h). Narrow dispersion, controlled directivity.

[TubeLover]

Tom, I think that horns can be absolutely magical in the right setting. Thats not generally an easy thing to accomplish, though. The good ones are indeed large and expensive. And I mean REALLY large. For starters, you require a very large room to accommodate good horns. They are best powered by excellent quality SET amplification, which is also not inexpensive. That said, I have heard well executed horn based audio systems that were absolutely magical and almost life changing in their degree of performance. 

 

A few years ago, at Axpona, I came across a room featuring rather large horn speakers, designed and built by the Polish gentleman  that was running the room in question. I made no less than five trips back to that room, simply because, even in that extremely limited hotel room setting, the sound was simply the best I've heard, at least for me, at any price short of insanity. The speakers in question were $95k, and thus, many times anything I could remotely afford. However, if I ever hit a lottery, somehow came into a large sum of money (as I would need a bigger house for them) they would be my very first purchase after buying the house to place them properly in. 

 

I actually recommended these speakers to a well heeled acquaintance a while back, and it turned out he had also heard them at Axpona , and felt as I did about them. After some soul searching, and discussions with his wife, and my pointing out that life was too short to live without these speakers if one could afford them, he purchased them. Interestingly, and, I would think, appropriately, for a purchase of this level, the speakers designer/builder even arrives at your house to set them up at no additional charge. He has thanked me numerous times for pushing him to buy them. I also have a standing invitation to visit him should I find myself in his state to enjoy them at length. I'm not sure such unlimited exposure would be good for me, given that I will never remotely be able to afford them short of a financial miracle appearing from out of the sky.

 

Here is a link to a Stereophile article from Axpona, that year, n that features the speakers I described above. It is the very first commentary in the article:

 

https://www.stereophile.com/content/janas-day-3-axpona#D0adgTvs6BzpPXTB.97

 

JC

[DuckToller]

11 hours ago, semente said:

Narrow dispersion

Thank you @semente , for your response!
Would you file "Narrow dispersion" under advantages as it seems ?
I have read there are at least two camps in that non-conclusive debate about which kind of dispersion is preferable with valid arguments on each side.

Cheers, Tom
 

[DuckToller]

@TubeLover

Thank you JC for your contribution. I feel with you !
I hope that you physical condition will allow you to visit you friend's home soon, because your argument is not only valid for buying this  speakers.

Cheers, Tom
 

[semente]

46 minutes ago, DuckToller said:

Thank you @semente , for your response!
Would you file "Narrow dispersion" under advantages as it seems ?
I have read there are at least two camps in that non-conclusive debate about which kind of dispersion is preferable with valid arguments on each side.

Cheers, Tom
 

 

Narrow dispersion reduces room interference/reflections.

 

These reflections impact image focus negatively and also make it more difficult to recreate ambience cues present in recordings of classical music.

But those same reflections are often perceived as enhanced 3D-ness (soundstage effect) which may make multi-track studio produced recordings sound more interesting/enveloping.

 

Ultimately it's a matter of taste and depends on the kind of music you listen to.

 

http://www.gedlee.com/Papers/directivity.pdf

[DuckToller]

10 hours ago, semente said:

Narrow dispersion reduces room interference/reflections.

 

These reflections impact image focus negatively and also make it more difficult to recreate ambience cues present in recordings of classical music.

But those same reflections are often perceived as enhanced 3D-ness (soundstage effect) which may make multi-track studio produced recordings sound more interesting/enveloping.

 

Ultimately it's a matter of taste and depends on the kind of music you listen to.

 

http://www.gedlee.com/Papers/directivity.pdf

Thank you, @semento, for elaborating. 
There might be a point, why on Audio Show premises Horns may perform better than other transducer technolgies ...
Best Tom

[bgentry]

Good horns have some "magic" that's for sure.  Bad horns are really bad.  Very "poke you in the ear" sound.  I think the reason that good horns are so good is because of the enhanced coupling of the driver (the thing that moves) to the air mass in front of it. 

 

A metal dome tweeter sitting on a mount on the front of a speaker is kind of a normal tweeter.  To many people, like me, metal dome tweeters sound pretty bad.  Very "screamy" and just not natural at all.  But if you take a similar dome shaped driver and put a horn in front of it, the air load on the metal dome changes it's behavior drastically.  The dome moves much less though it's pass band because the air mass is coupled to it.  Almost like a weight being attached to the dome.

 

Paul Klipsch said that horns revealed the "Inner voices in recordings".  Those are interesting words because on the right system with horns, you really do hear subtle details that are masked on other systems.  I often think of those words when listening to good horns.

 

Midrange and bass horns that are good are much more rare, especially in the hi-fi world.

 

On the other hand, even good horns can be a little too revealing.   Bad recordings can really sound bad.  This is the balancing act we play with high end audio:  How much detail, resolution, and "wow!", versus how much listenability with average to poor recordings.

 

For me, after 30+ years of seeking great audio, I've finally decided that all I really care about is loving listening to the music that I already like.  If my chosen system won't play Van Halen's 5150 and make me like it, then I should have a different system.  5150 is particularly bright 80s recording that sounds quite bad on systems with a lot of tweeter response.  It's also music I really like, so I want to be able to listen to it.  

 

The Cowboy Junkies', The Trinity Session is a bit of an audiophile standard and sounds good on many systems.  It's actually great music too, which is quite rare.  Many audiophile quality recordings are boring, or niche, or otherwise don't have much appeal.  The Trinity Session is a great exception to that rule.  But it's not a great way for me to judge whether or not I like a pair of speakers... because it sounds good on a lot of different speakers.

 

The Violent Femmes, Pink Floyd, The Cure, and The Beastie Boys should all be equally at home in my system.  Because those are all bands I love and I should enjoy listening to them, as opposed to saying to myself "you know this is a bad (70s, 80s, 90s) recording and I should play something better on this great system."  That's flawed audiophile BS.

 

Horns can be great!  Just make sure they play the music  you like in a way that makes you smile.

 

Brian.

[fas42]

On 6/17/2019 at 12:18 AM, DuckToller said:

 

What are your experiences with Horn speaker systems?  

 

 

What are the everyday use advantages?
Did you personally analyze/notice/feel any shortcomings using horn speaker (systems) in your setup?
What are your suggestions for amplification?
What could possibly be better?
Thank you in advance for your interesting contributions.
Cheers, Tom
 

 

None owned.

 

The huge advantage is that they are very efficient, meaning the power amplifier is barely ticking over even at higher volume levels. Which in turn ensures that all the typical shortcomings in the electronics chain, which are so much more evident when the power amplifier has to "work hard", drawing far more current from the main, etc, are far less audible.

 

Because horn speakers on the end of the chain, as typically used, are intrinsically going to allow you to get so much closer to the true sound, dynamics of the recording, any remaining artifacts in the playback chain can be more readily apparent - as not belonging.

 

A good quality class A amp, with excellent distortion specs below 1 watt, would be a good bet.

[Lone Mountain Audio]

21 hours ago, fas42 said:

 

 

Because horn speakers on the end of the chain, as typically used, are intrinsically going to allow you to get so much closer to the true sound, dynamics of the recording, any remaining artifacts in the playback chain can be more readily apparent - as not belonging.

 

How are horns so much closer to the "true sound"?   

Brad  

[fas42]

29 minutes ago, Lone Mountain Audio said:

How are horns so much closer to the "true sound"?   

Brad  

 

For the reasons I gave above. The electronics chain prior to the speakers does a much better job of delivering an accurate signal to the drivers, because the circuitry deals with much a lower order of current levels to achieve equivalent volumes.

 

Exactly the same subjective qualities can be achieved with highly conventional speakers, by using a very carefully sorted set of electronic components - horn speakers and conventional ones will offer the same presentation in all the key areas, if they are both driven by competent rigs; which is, the sound that is encoded on the recording.

[Lone Mountain Audio]

10 hours ago, fas42 said:

 

For the reasons I gave above. The electronics chain prior to the speakers does a much better job of delivering an accurate signal to the drivers, because the circuitry deals with much a lower order of current levels to achieve equivalent volumes.

 

SNIP>

I sort of get your comment, but the distortion created and present within loudspeakers is so far greater than distortion created or present within modern electronics, yes?  I don't think you can say that the fractionally lower distortion low power electronic designs make horn/driver transducers better than other transducers.   The electronics would surely be one of the smallest contributors to the overall measurable system distortion with most transducers in modern sound systems.   

 

Are you saying more efficient designs are always lower in distortion?

 

Brad

[Ralf11]

Yes.  And yet the distortion created within modern electronics appears to be detectable, hence the Pass Class A amps, and the Benchmark (which licenses a technology to reduce Xover distortion)...

[Paul R]

I think horns are very very good at making recorded sound "come alive."  I love them in very large spaces especially. 

 

For personal spaces, some horn systems are too forceful in the treble for me, and at reasonable listening levels, can actually make my ears "vibrate" - a most uncomfortable situation. 

The little Klipsch speakers found today at places list Best Buy, and usually sold as part of a surround system, do not seem to do that. Some other modern horn speakers don't do the to me either, like the JBL PD566 Horn Loaded Speaker. (Nice.) 

 

They certainly bring a nice immediacy to just about any system!

 

Heard a big set of Maggies recently? No horns, but similar.  

 

 

[fas42]

9 hours ago, Lone Mountain Audio said:

I sort of get your comment, but the distortion created and present within loudspeakers is so far greater than distortion created or present within modern electronics, yes?  I don't think you can say that the fractionally lower distortion low power electronic designs make horn/driver transducers better than other transducers.   The electronics would surely be one of the smallest contributors to the overall measurable system distortion with most transducers in modern sound systems.   

 

Are you saying more efficient designs are always lower in distortion?

 

Brad

 

In figure terms, yes - but it's the type of distortion that matters! The electronics areas start to misbehave in subjectively disturbing ways, from a variety of non-linear mechanisms, as the currents required for powering less efficient speakers increase, to reach the SPLs desired for realistic volumes; for example, the power supplies for most gear is made to be "just  good enough" to meet specs - and it shows, in the quality of the sound.

 

My efforts over the years have been strongly focused on getting highly conventional speakers to project the impact that well sorted horn speakers can do relatively easily - and this is achieved by careful investigation and resolving of all the sorts of issues that typical electronics chains manifest, when the current flows are higher.

 

Currently, all other things being equal, a rig using more efficient speakers will always sound subjectively lower in distortion at volumes closer to realistic SPLs.

[fas42]

2 hours ago, Paul R said:

I think horns are very very good at making recorded sound "come alive."  I love them in very large spaces especially. 

 

For personal spaces, some horn systems are too forceful in the treble for me, and at reasonable listening levels, can actually make my ears "vibrate" - a most uncomfortable situation. 

The little Klipsch speakers found today at places list Best Buy, and usually sold as part of a surround system, do not seem to do that. Some other modern horn speakers don't do the to me either, like the JBL PD566 Horn Loaded Speaker. (Nice.) 

 

They certainly bring a nice immediacy to just about any system!

 

Heard a big set of Maggies recently? No horns, but similar.  

 

 

 

Okay, horns can get the dynamics happening with relative ease. Which means that the tendency is to want to play them at higher volume levels. But if the distortion of the electronics chain is not completely under control, this is now "screamingly" obvious, . "Forceful treble" is just code for saying that the distortion is too much for the ear/brain - and something needs to be done to sort out the rig.

 

Klipsch speakers are an excellent shortcut - I heard a mass market Japanese receiver do a remarkably good job of pumping out solid quality, high impact sound using a modest pair of these.

 

What's achievable is the impact and dynamics of horns, combined with all the "refinement" of "the best speakers", . I call this ... competent playback ... .

[Lone Mountain Audio]

5 hours ago, fas42 said:

Currently, all other things being equal, a rig using more efficient speakers will always sound subjectively lower in distortion at volumes closer to realistic SPLs.

Im not feeling that in practice Fas42.   People who make the music are highly focused on low distortion and very very few of them use horns.   The big horns in the wall at studios have failen quite out of fashion as well in any situation other than high SPL.  Midfield conventional cone speakers are very much in vogue in professional circles, for engineers can hear the details they miss on the horn systems.

 

Brad   

[miguelito]

I use horns in my system. Part of the reason is that, since I was a kid, I have lusted after the Audio Note Ongaku amplifier, and I had to find appropriate speakers for it. About 20 years ago I listened to some Avantgarde horns powered by a Wavac tube amp, and that sold me completely on them. I got my Ongaku and Avantgarde’s in 2013 (pics in the link in my signature).

 

Pros:

- DYNAMICS... They play any level effortlessly, never ever strain - this is because the horn is an impedance matcher between small displacement/high pressure at the driver to the large displacement/low pressure in your room.

- Directionality... Room is less involved, they are fairly directional so you do need to place them such that they point in the long direction of the room if you can

- Can work with low power amps... Cheat note: the subs in each of my horns are self-powered by a massive amp

 

Cons:

- Space... They need space. I cannot sit anywhere closer than say 12ft from mine - they want a large room

- Heavy and large... They are very large themselves in terms of the space they take (and heavy, mine weight ~ 280 lbs)

[DuckToller]

@bgentry

Thank you for your contribution,

I like particularly your taste of music 🙂I

I've understood you do not own Horns, is that correct?

Cheers, Tom

[DuckToller]

@miguelito

Thank you very much for the +/- of Horn ownership, Miguelito. You are one of the frequent forum contributors that I was aware of owning Horns. Happy to receive first hand experience of people living with Horns. I have seen e.g. Avantgarde developing horn based audio systems that are suitable starting 12 sqm. The Zero and the Uno both have less than 125 lbs per unit. Alas, not sure someone in our forum owns them...

When listening to Stein and Acapella the sheer height of the unit was making me feeling dwarved @ 6.1 feet 🙄

Cheers, Tom

[miguelito]

12 minutes ago, DuckToller said:

@miguelito

Thank you very much for the +/- of Horn ownership, Miguelito. You are one of the frequent forum contributors that I was aware of owning Horns. Happy to receive first hand experience of people living with Horns. I have seen e.g. Avantgarde developing horn based audio systems that are suitable starting 12 sqm. The Zero and the Uno both have less than 125 lbs per unit. Alas, not sure someone in our forum owns them...

When listening to Stein and Acapella the sheer height of the unit was making me feeling dwarved @ 6.1 feet 🙄

Cheers, Tom

One more con: Horns (at least mine) are not really suitable for intimate low volume listening. They would work for sure but a pair of say Orangutan O/96 would be more adept to that. 

[bgentry]

2 hours ago, DuckToller said:

I like particularly your taste of music 🙂I

I've understood you do not own Horns, is that correct?

 

I have never owned any horn speakers.  I've heard a small number of home audio horn based speakers.  I've set up and heard a good number of pro audio speakers.  I've also helped design a couple of large scale bass horns, but that was very unusual, featuring huge amounts of power, large drivers, and horn mouths that were 8 feet tall or more.  Different and interesting with high SPLs.  But not "hi-fi" by any means. 

 

Brian.

[fas42]

28 minutes ago, Lone Mountain Audio said:

Im not feeling that in practice Fas42.   People who make the music are highly focused on low distortion and very very few of them use horns.   The big horns in the wall at studios have failen quite out of fashion as well in any situation other than high SPL.  Midfield conventional cone speakers are very much in vogue in professional circles, for engineers can hear the details they miss on the horn systems.

 

Brad   

 

 

If the horn speakers they were using were "hiding details" then the system setup wasn't working that well! The typical active monitors used these days serve a function, they are a tool for getting work done - and the type of "low distortion" they have is tailored to suit that purpose ... I did an exercise some years getting a listen to every reasonably priced active studio monitor I could find, and they were overall very disappointing, as a means for listening to music for pleasure.

 

Since you mention music makers I looked up pro speakers. And went via Dynaudio to Bob Katz, who uses M5P units driven by ATSAH NCore amplifiers - this would deliver the sort of sound I'm after; I've heard the Confidence consumer version of these driven by the Bryston 28B monoblocks, a highly comparable pairing to Katz's, and this setup had both accuracy, and dynamics.

[semente]

On 6/21/2019 at 6:13 AM, Lone Mountain Audio said:

Im not feeling that in practice Fas42.   People who make the music are highly focused on low distortion and very very few of them use horns.   The big horns in the wall at studios have failen quite out of fashion as well in any situation other than high SPL.  Midfield conventional cone speakers are very much in vogue in professional circles, for engineers can hear the details they miss on the horn systems.

 

Brad   

 

Because they're big and very expensive, not because engineers can't hear the details.

[STC]

2 minutes ago, semente said:

 

Because they're big and very expensive, not because engineers can't hear the details.

 

Horns are not suitable for near field monitoring/mastering.