the damping factor rule.

[Flyman]

Hey guys.

 

I just want to finish my system. Getting some panels and a better possition i still notice a lack of bass. I check everything to my system everything is ok. I know my speaker don't have a the boom bass but i don't think that is the thing.

 

1) Searching some info for my amp....hegel h190....i noticed the damping factor to 4000. Very expensive ab amps don't have so much damping factor...only hydrid and class d does(what's why i don't like the bass?). Somewhere i find a guy saying that the too much damping factor kills the bass.is it right?! Also some of my friends saying the same. Hegel answers that the damping factor doesn't kill the bass....it just controlled and that is a personal taste. 

what do you believe?!

 

2) i live in a small village and it is difficult to demo an amp. Theoretically with a 851n as preamp......and a lets say rotel 1582 i will loose sound quality and 3d imaging?! what amp you suggest to 3000euros?! in the past some friends bring me here some amps....cyrus,naim and lfd but i didn't like them.

 

thanx guys

[Ralf11]

pic or sketch of your room?

 

what speakers?

 

cables in phase?

 

is the bass now worse than before?  if so, what changed?

[esldude]

Too little damping factor leaves the bass uncontrolled and at the extreme muddy.  The bass lingers longer than it should which sounds like more bass. Generally if the speaker is pretty good you don't want to muddy up the bass with poor damping.  Some may like going a little bit in that direction.  Making that adjustment with amp changes is rather crazy.  Now an excess of damping doesn't kill any bass it simply controls what is there.  You likely would hear no difference in a damping factor of 100 and 4000.  So no bass has been killed. 

 

As Ralf says gives us some details and you'll get better advice.  

 

Now without knowing all the particulars you'd possibly be better to add a Subwoofer and adjust the level of it relative to the main speaker. 

 

Also, you need only add resistance between your amp and speaker to lower the damping.  Possibly you could get a sizable .5 ohm resistor and put in series between amp and speaker.  This will reduce the damping to a very low level.  Have to make sure the resistor can handle the power however.  

[lucretius]

Over damping has a good transient response in the bass, but suffers from a significant loss in sound pressure in the bass, according to Nelson Pass anyway; others disagree. Also, apparently, there are some speakers (high-efficiency?) that require an amplifier with a low damping factor to reproduce rich, full-bodied sound.

[Flyman]

Well which is the best option for me now.

 

adding subwoofer will be not a good idea?!

delay time( not the same distance and high as the other speakers), imaging(one woofer for 2channel?), connection. Also is a bad thing playing the same freq mid bass and the sub.  i know subs have crossover but the point is boost some freq....and if i do that some freq will be played from the sub and mid bass as a result poor sound quality.

 

also a resistance ,between amp and speaker, i don't think will be a good idea.

[esldude]

53 minutes ago, Flyman said:

snip................

also a resistance ,between amp and speaker, i don't think will be a good idea.

I actually think much in this post is not correct.  I'll only address one as it is very simple. 

 

Damping factor is the impedance of the speaker divided by the output impedance of the amp.  In terms of the amp it basically is just resistance.  So adding a resistor between amp and speaker is exactly the same as having another amplifier with more output resistance which is what creates lower damping factors.  Adding a power resistor of .5 ohms or .1 ohms is much more controllable and less expensive than changing from your amp to another amp.  A few euros vs 3000 euroes? 

 

To be very straightforward and honest, if you are continuing to be troubled by the bass of your speakers this much, you probably have the wrong speakers.  Speakers by far make the most difference in what sound you get.  If you aren't happy with it, then change speakers.  Changing amps and some room panels etc. are all going to make at best minor differences in your bass balance.  Get speakers that are about to your liking to start with.  I always advise people to pick their speakers to their liking first and build the system around it. 

 

Also, unless there is simply no room to do so, for the money you are considering spending on an amp you certainly can get two quality subwoofers. 

 

BTW here are his speakers.

https://www.harbeth.co.uk/hifi-speaker/2/Harbeth-C7ES-3-loudspeaker.php

 

http://www.theabsolutesound.com/articles/harbeth-hl-compact-7es3-loudspeaker/

 

In reviews like the TAS one above people talk about the mids of the C7ES even comparing them to ESL63 Quads.  It isn't the speaker for ample expansive bass I would think.  The specs show it as - 3db at 45 hz.  If the bass isn't up to snuff this is just the speaker for adding a good quality subwoofer or two.  Or it is the wrong speaker for some people. 

 

 

 

[Flyman]

I just saying my thought in order to tell me your opinion. For sure you know much more from me.

 

So i can try the resistor somehow.low cost as you say.

 

I think none of bookshelf have a good bass that i am looking for?! If you know some could you please tell me?!

 

The problem with subs as told is imaging,placing is the right position to take the same delay like your speakers,height and crossovering not to play the same freq.

 

 

 

 

 

[esldude]

1 hour ago, Flyman said:

I just saying my thought in order to tell me your opinion. For sure you know much more from me.

 

So i can try the resistor somehow.low cost as you say.

 

I think none of bookshelf have a good bass that i am looking for?! If you know some could you please tell me?!

 

The problem with subs as told is imaging,placing is the right position to take the same delay like your speakers,height and crossovering not to play the same freq.

 

 

 

 

 

I don't know where you are located.  Here are a couple resistors, wirewound 10 watt in either .33 ohm or .47 ohm.  With your speakers .33 ohm would give a damping factor of something like 20.  There are better quality versions of such things available if you decide this is to your liking.  These are good enough and inexpensive enough to experiment with.   If you are outside the USA, such things should be available from electronics distributors in your location. 

https://www.parts-express.com/033-ohm-10w-resistor-wire-wound-5-tolerance--016-.33

https://www.parts-express.com/047-ohm-10w-resistor-wire-wound-5-tolerance--016-.47

 

You'll need to connect one of these in series with the speaker.  There are a few ways you can do this.  At a distance it would hard for me to give best advice on how to do it safely for a test to see if you like the results.  

 

I don't know of good bookshelf speakers with good ample bass.  Physics is against it mostly.  

 

In regards to subwoofers, while our hearing can detect timing differences around 10 microseconds at a few hundred hertz, it no longer can detect those from around 80 hz and lower. So a sub crossed over at 80 hertz with preferably 24 db/octave crossovers won't cause trouble with your main speakers.  That does complicate matters vs what you have.  I simply fear your speakers don't have enough bass for what you are seeking.  

 

An alternative experiment you could try is to do some gentle EQ of some music files to see if minimal boosting of the low end makes you happy with your speakers.  Even something like Audacity which is free could do an alright job of that.  I'd suggest starting a gentle rise at 200 hz reaching +3 db at 50 hz.  Shelve the response and don't increase it above +3 db below 50 hz.  This is low enough not to harm anything, and lets you know if you are just a small distance from bass you'd be happy with. 

[fas42]

1 hour ago, Flyman said:

I think none of bookshelf have a good bass that i am looking for?! If you know some could you please tell me?!

 

 

My query would be as to what you feel lacking when you say you're after "good bass". Subjectively, there's more to it than the fact that very low frequencies are reproduced correctly; IME very small speakers, bookshelf variety, have no trouble projecting the sense of a powerful, intense bass component to the sound; that conventional instruments sound 'correct' when their lowest playable notes occur - when the system is set up well.

 

At least two elements are key: first, the cabinet of the speaker needs to be locked down tightly to a high mass mounting - any easy test is to lightly push against the side of the speaker once set up; it should feel like you're trying to shift an extremely heavy, or immovable object. And secondly the electronics chain must be working to a very high order; any lacking here will emasculate the qualities that typically one senses in powerful bass sound elements.

[Flyman]

So speaking for subs....as i see is very difficult to put a sub into a system. This must do a professional. Am i right?!

 

if not some advices for which sub and some tips placement will be a good hand. Some guys as i see they place them behind the speaker....but me i will placement at the same height of midrange or just above of them.

 

i have foobar.....do you think can try eq in foobar?! So puting 3db in 50hz and After dicrease smoothly to 200hz?!

 

yeap the low end is correctly but it isn't enough...i want better push. I don't know if i understand corrctly where you saying high mass mounting. My speakers is placed is open frame stands.do you think that may be a problem also?!

[Ralf11]

no - easy DIY project - many have instructions you can follow on how to connect & place them

 

here's an easy rule: 2 are better than 1 & swarm is better than just 2 (assuming you can afford them)

 

 

[PeterSt]

11 minutes ago, Ralf11 said:

2 are better than 1 & swarm is better than just 2 (assuming you can afford them)

 

2 is infinitely more difficult than 1 and a swarm is undoable. This is because of cancellation (of each other) and you can't do that without thorough measurement. Now of course it *is* true that anyone with a more decent sub system (pun) also will have a nice measurement microphone and REW and the like. But ... 

[esldude]

1 hour ago, Flyman said:

So speaking for subs....as i see is very difficult to put a sub into a system. This must do a professional. Am i right?!

 

if not some advices for which sub and some tips placement will be a good hand. Some guys as i see they place them behind the speaker....but me i will placement at the same height of midrange or just above of them.

 

i have foobar.....do you think can try eq in foobar?! So puting 3db in 50hz and After dicrease smoothly to 200hz?!

 

yeap the low end is correctly but it isn't enough...i want better push. I don't know if i understand corrctly where you saying high mass mounting. My speakers is placed is open frame stands.do you think that may be a problem also?!

You can do a sub by yourself.  To do it well takes some time, and if you don't know some study of other people's instructions.  Having a pro do it might not be a bad idea. 

 

As to one or two or a swarm, done right a swarm is the best as in 3 or more.  Two can work alright, and 1 can even be made to be a benefit.  But it is all in the doing.  You would need maybe a Umik (inexpensive calibrated measuring microphone works with laptop over USB) and some time with REW (free but very powerful measuring software) to measure and learn where to place them.  If just doing one, that might be the simplest, one in a corner and adjust level as appropriate.  Not optimum, but often quite acceptable. 

 

Foobar has more than one equalizer.  If you are talking about the 1/3 octave graphic EQ, yeah, good enough to see what you think.  If not to your liking then no harm done.   Not as good as some that let you more or less draw the response curve, but again this is just an experiment to see if it gets close to giving the bass you want. If you are talking about the default graphic EQ with like 15 bands that will be too coarse, and not really fit for trying out for your purposes.  

 

If you like, send me two or three songs, I'll EQ them for you and send them back to you. You can use send.firefox.com and send me the link in a private message here.  

[Flyman]

I have rew and umik and some measurments if this helps.

 

I am living in a small village and pros don't come here.that's why i am asking if i can make it work.

 

I find only one eq in foobar. Please if you could tell which other you mean it could be a help.

 

i will send you the songs when i will go home.thanx a lot!

 

[marce]

13 hours ago, lucretius said:

Over damping has a good transient response in the bass, but suffers from a significant loss in sound pressure in the bass, according to Nelson Pass anyway; others disagree. Also, apparently, there are some speakers (high-efficiency?) that require an amplifier with a low damping factor to reproduce rich, full-bodied sound.

Horn speakers are one example where low damping can benefit. I use to have an SS system (Kef 104/2 Audiolab) and a SET with home built Fostex horns. When I used the Audiolab on the horns the bass was almost non existent, the valve amps made them sing... Mr Pass may have been referring to horn speakers.

[yamamoto2002]

Using 18AWG 30 meter speaker cable, dumping factor of your system is reduced to 3.3 if your speaker is 4Ω, 6.7 if your speaker is 8Ω. It is tube amp level of low dumping factor.

 

Reducing the length to 3 meter, dumping factor will be improved to 60 on 8Ω speaker, 30 on 4Ω speaker.

 

If you'd like to hear/measure SQ difference of dumping factor difference, it is better to start with extreme cases

[Flyman]

i try to eq from foobar. i try to +3db the 55hz and get the 77 +2db and 110hz +1db.

Also i try +6db with smooth it down db up to 220Hz. This was the worst.

 

I try to leave the 55Hz to zero and - the other and was better....but not such a thing. I try both -3db and 6db. If i understand well harbeth doesn't have bass at all....or the something else i am missing.

[PeterSt]

Obviously everybody tries to help as best as he can. My advice would be not to go the "EQ" route because a. you are too keen in knowing the theories and b. you will thus hear what's all wrong with this method.

 

Any (bass) driver will start to roll off at best at 100Hz. This is compensated to some degree by the cabinet. The bass port also helps but is also a "tuned" factor (carefully tuned by the manufacturer).

 

Any speaker without DSP or very complex analogue filters will be a mess, especially at the lower frequencies. This is because it actually can't do it. You have bumps here and dips there. Again the manufacturer will have caused that this is sufficiently under control for the maximum rating the speaker has. And that for the price it costs, obviously. What I'm saying is that most probably e.g. bumps ate just not too high to be annoyingly audible. And now you're going to boost a few dB's on top of that.

 

The idea to throw some equalizing at it, would not be my idea of making it for the better. Never. It could be personal but equalizers for me are from ancient history. Think bass and treble knobs which also are from the stone age, by now.

It does not work like that inherently and it especially does not work like that to solve this whatever problem you have, of which I may claim you don't even know what it is, yet.

I think what was suggested, is to use the EQ as a trial. But already for the maybe unexpected reasons it fails because of what I said above: you know the theories too well and maybe your ears are also better than you like yourself.

 

A Parametric Equalizer (PEQ) is what you'd need in this case, *if* that is the way to go to begin with. And then 10 or so per channel. Or even better: DSP (which will contain 10 or so PEQ's in firmware). Btw, that too has its down sides, but let's say that for the few 100 $ it maybe costs, you'll have a device what fits your speaker, regarding the imposed quality. It always requires the mentioned measurement. There's no way around that.

 

One more IMO important thing: In the other thread you talked about the lack of bass with your new Hegel amp which replaced the demo amp which was fine, regarding the bass and your perception of it. Please consider the chance to be more than 50% that the bass you perceived at first was sheer distortion. This, while now with the new amp, this distortion is not there or is less. Also you should now that the distortion of about any speaker, but especially the not-so-low going like yours, is quite severe anyway. Now suddenly all is important and crucial, like for example too loud playing (and insufficient control of the amp - that damping factor).. But point is: distortion will sound lower in frequency (also higher at the same time but never mind that). It even will be lower in frequency because of the distortion behavior (diaphragm excurses more than should with a therefore unlinear behavior (it wobbles at a lower frequency than the signal depicts). You would incur for that even more with boosting the lower frequencies, as per the EQ suggestion.

Please consider this as something which might have been extra happening with the demo amp. And if so, the new amp is thus better, although it may not satisfy you more.

 

Regardless, listen to the files esldude is preparing for you. I think he knows what he is doing. But you must know how to judge it and with that, judge the viability of the route you may intend to travel. Hence this post.

 

 

[Flyman]

thanx for the detailed answer.

 

I agree with you. I think the speakers can't afford the eq and they don't listen at it. Some B&w i had before was better than harbeth. So the first problem i think is the speakers....and maybe after the amp.

 

I am thinking to try a sub....but i don't know if that will make the things better.

 

Some suggestions for sub to 400e and any opinion for buying a sub?!

 

thanx again

[fas42]

Just to add to Peter's thoughts on how EQ may not solve the subjective quality of the bass, I will again mention my fairly recent experience with very well done DIY subwoofers, of an audiophile not that far away. Twin sealed, massively heavy enclosures, sides fully damped; using a DEQX DSP unit to 'guarantee' perfectly even response - running frequency sweeps up and down showed extremely clean, low distortion output to the depths of audibility - this was subwoofing far superior to most commercial offerings.

 

Yet, his rig did nothing special in the bass, subjectively - it lacked a sense of grunt, of power delivery of low notes; recordings which should have had great impact from the bass lines were lacklustre, even boring ...

[Flyman]

any suggestions for sub guys?! 400e to 500e max.

 

a friend suggest me a Temblor T10.

 

[davide256]

On 6/6/2019 at 2:32 PM, Flyman said:

Hey guys.

 

I just want to finish my system. Getting some panels and a better possition i still notice a lack of bass. I check everything to my system everything is ok. I know my speaker don't have a the boom bass but i don't think that is the thing.

 

1) Searching some info for my amp....hegel h190....i noticed the damping factor to 4000. Very expensive ab amps don't have so much damping factor...only hydrid and class d does(what's why i don't like the bass?). Somewhere i find a guy saying that the too much damping factor kills the bass.is it right?! Also some of my friends saying the same. Hegel answers that the damping factor doesn't kill the bass....it just controlled and that is a personal taste. 

what do you believe?!

 

2) i live in a small village and it is difficult to demo an amp. Theoretically with a 851n as preamp......and a lets say rotel 1582 i will loose sound quality and 3d imaging?! what amp you suggest to 3000euros?! in the past some friends bring me here some amps....cyrus,naim and lfd but i didn't like them.

 

thanx guys

50/50 at this point whether you are barking up the wrong tree for your bass issues

1) what speakers are you using?

2) what source solution and what recording is demonstrating to you this lack? IME source solutions are often a culprit for poor bass below 50 hz

[Flyman]

1) harbeth c7es

2)tidal or mine flac songs.

 

is a difficult finding a stand speaker nearfield that have bass. I never find any.

[STC]

6 minutes ago, Flyman said:

1) harbeth c7es

2)tidal or mine flac songs.

 

is a difficult finding a stand speaker nearfield that have bass. I never find any.

 

When you say bass, I think you meant mid bass. The kind of bass that you find in Tracy Chapman’s fast car. If you are looking for that kind of bass than Harbeth is not going to give you the satisfaction. 

 

I was using Harbeth SHL5 and it never could give the oomph ( in the mid bass attack) that you can find with the Egglestonworks, Dynaudio or ProAc.  You may want to look at pro audio speakers such as Genelac and others. 

 

If I were you, pick a song which you like the bass and narrow the bass frequencies range that you are after. 

[PeterSt]

1 hour ago, STC said:

such as Genelac

 

@FlymanFor your Google input, STC made a small typo there. It is Genelec.