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Warm Pleasant Desktop Speakers


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It's been a couple of weeks now with the Warfedale Denton 80s and the HSU sub I bought to go along with them.

 

Overall I'm pretty impressed with this setup.  It's very dynamic and "fast" sounding with a lot of instrument separation.  The bass is really well integrated.  I spent a lot of extra time getting the sub position and parameters set up.  Really a lot.

 

I even re-arranged my room so that I'm sitting very close to a wall and my desk and speakers are near the center of the room.  This improved the bass a good bit and the midrange and highs as well.  Instruments became even more separated after this re-arranging.

 

The sound is actually more "audiophile" and revealing than any other system I've had.  Some of my systems have been far more expensive.  The bass in particular is some of the best over the entire range that I've ever heard from my systems and really even from most audio shop systems I can think of.  But that's the sub integration.  The bass from the Dentons alone is OK, but they have 5" drivers.  So you're never going to get real bass from them.  The HSU makes a huge difference.

 

Vocals in particular are pretty incredible.  I'm not sure I've ever heard Mark Knopfler or Michael McDonald or BIlly Joel sound as full of life as on these.  The chest resonance really makes them sound "big", but the emphasis on the upper midrange also gives just a ton of detail to the voices.

 

I wouldn't exactly call the Dentons "warm".  They are extremely revealing, but also not terribly harsh.  When played loud or with music that's kind of "forward" or complex (think loud rock or metal) they get a bit unpleasant and I usually turn it back down.  I bought an NAD integrated amp to go with them hoping it might warm the sound up some.  I don't think the NAD did any "warming", but I think the overall sound is better now; more smooth and maybe a smidge less strident or harsh.

 

I think my listening distance plays a big role in this.  My ears are around 3 feet from each speaker.  When I push back from the desk and nearly touch the back wall, the forward nature of the sound (like the singer is very close to you) goes away and they sound a bit different.  I'll probably play with position a bit more.

 

I've got the treble on the NAD turned down a few notches which helps.  But it doesn't really change the character of the speakers.  It's just a tweak.

 

As you can see I'm happy, but have slightly mixed impressions.

 

Brian.

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  • 4 weeks later...

There’s been some great information on here about how off and on axis response can influence the sound. I think this is all key in my experience for desktop listening.

 

I think the harshness is probably nothing to do with the speaker frequency response. And to be honest very unlikely to be cured with a new amplifier (or tone control cables!). There is theory that reflected sound interacting with direct sound creates harshness - and in the desktop case, reflections are very prominent. Computer monitor between the speakers, walls close to the side (maybe), and particularly desk below.

 

I did try a couple of acoustic panels left/right of my desk and one on the desk - very rough and ready but it was a big improvement. Problem is, it’s just not very practical and I’m not sure what an optimal setup is. I’m just living with it.

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Digital edge gets blamed for a lot of problems. But beyond very fine subtleties, with modern, competent equipment above the budget level, I don’t think it is the likely culprit. I don’t feel the OPs complaint is to do with the subtleties you are talking about. I really do believe that this is an acoustic issue.

 

Thinking laterally... if the OP has a fabric sofa, might be worth a try to put the base and back cushions on the desk/to the left&right. See if there are changes in the right direction?

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A few details about my system to make things more clear:

 

My DAC is pretty decent:  A Schiit Audio Modi Multibit.  I was quite impressed when I upgraded to this DAC.  

 

The "desk" these speakers are on is rather large, at 6 feet (2 meters) wide.  One speaker is inches from a wall, the other is in the middle of the room.  Between them is a 27" monitor.  The desk is littered with sundry electronics and desk items.  Including a full sized receiver, DACs, a headphone amp, etc.  This is certainly nothing like a pristine, non-reflective environment.  My listening position is generally about 2 feet from the back wall, though sometimes right up to the wall.  

 

I think the brightness I hear is mostly due to my close proximity to the speakers.  It seems to drop off a bit as I move back.  But I can't go far enough back to be at a more typical 7 to 10 foot listening position, as the wall stops me from going any further.  This is not a living room:  It's a spare bedroom that I use as a hobby room and office type area.

 

I would entertain doing a little bit of treatment, or tweaking of speaker positions.  I should probably play with toeing the speakers out a bit.  They are pointing in towards me at the moment.  Probably intersecting at a point about 3 feet behind my head.  I've never seen any audiophile system with speakers hung from the ceiling.  I don't think I'm willing to experiment quite that far.

 

Thanks for the thoughts and ideas.

 

Brian.

 

 

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1 hour ago, bgentry said:

I've never seen any audiophile system with speakers hung from the ceiling.  I don't think I'm willing to experiment quite that far.

 

This was hinting at speaker isolation.  Your average desk is not an above average speaker stand.  Investigating this and whether the room or surface reflections in the first few feet have a greater negative effect should be helpful.  Not exactly a solution, but constructively helpful.  

 

A search for "air and roller bearings" might be interesting if you'd like to see speakers hanging off chains.  

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As long as you are always on axis as you move away from the speakers, the direct sound should not be too different at 3ft or 10ft, but the acoustic effects and indirect sound will be hugely different.

 

A massive desk, close walls to one side and in front sound like big issues in terms of reflections.

 

If you ignore the parts on cables/amplifiers etc, this is some interesting bits in this article on how influential reflections are:

https://ethanwiner.com/believe.html

 

It’s not hugely popular with a lot of people to try and address acoustic issues - because doing right it is somewhat hard acoustically and a nightmare aesthetically for a domestic environment.

 

Alternatively, you could try a digital cover-up of the issue. If you’re using eg Roon, you could always try EQing down some of the higher frequencies - probably 1-3k is the worst for harsh sound - by 2 or 3db. People on here may have a fit at the thought, but if you find it unpleasant now, that makes it sound better, and you don’t have other options, then it is a perfectly valid improvement. Alternatively, there is something like Dirac, which should “fix” a good few of the major acoustic issues and will allow you to EQ to your hearts content. Not sure how broken the current version is though. Or there’s Home Audio Fidelity - discussed on another thread - but I’m not sure that is the best option in this case (but I am a huge fan of what it does for a system that is “almost there”)

 

 

 

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  • 2 months later...

@bgentry i realize this an old topic but i have used until recently a pair of cambridge soundworks (henry kloss's last company) ensembles and s-300 satellites(tripole= dipole/direct/bipole both 'soft'- easy to listen to especially the s-300s and readily found on ebay and other sources very inexpensive great build and design have a pair of each with passive/slave subwoofers if interested

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  • 1 month later...
On 7/10/2019 at 8:30 PM, bgentry said:

It's been a couple of weeks now with the Warfedale Denton 80s and the HSU sub I bought to go along with them.

 

Overall I'm pretty impressed with this setup.  It's very dynamic and "fast" sounding with a lot of instrument separation.  The bass is really well integrated.  I spent a lot of extra time getting the sub position and parameters set up.  Really a lot.

 

I even re-arranged my room so that I'm sitting very close to a wall and my desk and speakers are near the center of the room.  This improved the bass a good bit and the midrange and highs as well.  Instruments became even more separated after this re-arranging.

 

The sound is actually more "audiophile" and revealing than any other system I've had.  Some of my systems have been far more expensive.  The bass in particular is some of the best over the entire range that I've ever heard from my systems and really even from most audio shop systems I can think of.  But that's the sub integration.  The bass from the Dentons alone is OK, but they have 5" drivers.  So you're never going to get real bass from them.  The HSU makes a huge difference.

 

Vocals in particular are pretty incredible.  I'm not sure I've ever heard Mark Knopfler or Michael McDonald or BIlly Joel sound as full of life as on these.  The chest resonance really makes them sound "big", but the emphasis on the upper midrange also gives just a ton of detail to the voices.

 

I wouldn't exactly call the Dentons "warm".  They are extremely revealing, but also not terribly harsh.  When played loud or with music that's kind of "forward" or complex (think loud rock or metal) they get a bit unpleasant and I usually turn it back down.  I bought an NAD integrated amp to go with them hoping it might warm the sound up some.  I don't think the NAD did any "warming", but I think the overall sound is better now; more smooth and maybe a smidge less strident or harsh.

 

I think my listening distance plays a big role in this.  My ears are around 3 feet from each speaker.  When I push back from the desk and nearly touch the back wall, the forward nature of the sound (like the singer is very close to you) goes away and they sound a bit different.  I'll probably play with position a bit more.

 

I've got the treble on the NAD turned down a few notches which helps.  But it doesn't really change the character of the speakers.  It's just a tweak.

 

As you can see I'm happy, but have slightly mixed impressions.

 

Brian.

 

First, be sure the speakers are time-aligned.  Raise them to be vertical and aimed at the correct part of your head for correct alignment.  The ideal, cheap method is large bricks or paving stones.  Use a _very_ thin sticky layer to affix the speakers to the stones.  If you can't or refuse to raise the speakers, tilt them until aligned correctly.  Use live percussion for this (my favorite is single tom tom): when alignment is ideal the drums sound natural and image well.

 

Be sure to get maximum absorption of the table relections, use whatever you can live with.  Heavy and thick foam are best, given your placement on the table.

 

Try starting with zero toe-in, then add toe-in as needed.  In midfield and farfield setups zero is typically best.  In most situations it's much superior to toed-in setups, especially the ubiquitous equilateral triangle arrangement.  The imaging and soundstage should improve a _lot_.  You can even put them flush with your monitor if it's a very wide one.  

 

Don't be too close to that back wall, but get something absorptive on the back wall behind your head to address those reflections, that will reduce the strong distortion from that reflection.  Good luck!

Mac Mini 2012 with 2.3 GHz i5 CPU and 16GB RAM running newest OS10.9x and Signalyst HQ Player software (occasionally JRMC), ethernet to Cisco SG100-08 GigE switch, ethernet to SOtM SMS100 Miniserver in audio room, sending via short 1/2 meter AQ Cinnamon USB to Oppo 105D, feeding balanced outputs to 2x Bel Canto S300 amps which vertically biamp ATC SCM20SL speakers, 2x Velodyne DD12+ subs. Each side is mounted vertically on 3-tiered Sound Anchor ADJ2 stands: ATC (top), amp (middle), sub (bottom), Mogami, Koala, Nordost, Mosaic cables, split at the preamp outputs with splitters. All transducers are thoroughly and lovingly time aligned for the listening position.

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1 hour ago, Sam Lord said:

First, be sure the speakers are time-aligned.  Raise them to be vertical and aimed at the correct part of your head for correct alignment.  The ideal, cheap method is large bricks or paving stones.  Use a _very_ thin sticky layer to affix the speakers to the stones.  If you can't or refuse to raise the speakers, tilt them until aligned correctly.  Use live percussion for this (my favorite is single tom tom): when alignment is ideal the drums sound natural and image well.

 

They are time aligned.  It's rather obvious.  They are only ~3 feet from my head.  They are raised on home made stands.  Strangely enough, I had already "tacked" the speakers in place using poster putty (a lot like blutac).  I placed putty between the stands and the table and between the speakers and the stands.

 

Quote

 

Be sure to get maximum absorption of the table relections, use whatever you can live with.  Heavy and thick foam are best, given your placement on the table.

 

That's a no-go for me.  My computer table has a lot of computer and audio gear on it.  I wouldn't be happy with an empty table covered in a blanket or something.

 

Quote

 

Try starting with zero toe-in, then add toe-in as needed.  In midfield and farfield setups zero is typically best.  In most situations it's much superior to toed-in setups, especially the ubiquitous equilateral triangle arrangement.  The imaging and soundstage should improve a _lot_.  You can even put them flush with your monitor if it's a very wide one.  

 

That's an interesting suggestion:  Zero toe in.  I think I'll experiment with it.  At the moment they are toed in such that the tweeter paths cross roughly 3 feet behind my head.

 

Quote

 

Don't be too close to that back wall, but get something absorptive on the back wall behind your head to address those reflections, that will reduce the strong distortion from that reflection.  Good luck!

 

I might consider hanging a blanket or other tapestry kind of thing behind my chair on the wall to absorb sound.  That might make a positive difference.

 

Thanks for the thoughts and suggestions.  :)

 

Brian.

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  • 3 months later...
On 8/4/2019 at 3:35 PM, rando said:

 

This was hinting at speaker isolation.  Your average desk is not an above average speaker stand.  Investigating this and whether the room or surface reflections in the first few feet have a greater negative effect should be helpful.  Not exactly a solution, but constructively helpful.  

 

A search for "air and roller bearings" might be interesting if you'd like to see speakers hanging off chains.  

I don't think chains work unless you are dealing with a lot of mass; chains have a resonance too!  I think isolating pucks of some sort is the better plan.  My favorite is the RAB Audio versions here:

https://www.sweetwater.com/store/detail/ProJax40--rab-audio-projax-px40-studio-monitor-isolation-kit-8-pieces

 

They also make them for heavier monitors.

Brad  

Brad Lunde

www.LoneMountainAudio.com (High End Consumer Importer to the Trade) and www.TransAudioGroup.com (High End Pro Audio Importer to the Trade)

Brands we import to the US are ATC, Tube Tech, Drawmer, MUTEC, Bettermaker 

Brands from the US we distribute are A Designs, Auratone, Daking, LatchLake and Mojave   

 

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  • 2 weeks later...
  • 8 months later...

When we last left our story, our hero was unsure about his new speakers.  Adding a subwoofer, rearranging the room, even moving the tone controls around helped but... was this really the one?  Would it work long term?  We rejoin our story with the room rearranged again and ...

 

After over a year with the Denton 80s, I decided to move them as far away as I could get them, in an attempt to tame their "sharp", "overly impactful" nature.  My chair is now near a different wall and the Dentons were moved to the far wall and put on improvised stands.  This changed the overall character a good bit and produced a little bit of sound staging.  A lot more than before in the nearfield position.  That's the problem with nearfield:  You really don't get any sense of real depth or width.  Yes, you get left to right effects.  Yes there is excellent (in this case) center imaging.  But the rest is just kind of compressed.

 

The sharpness is still there.  Trying to turn the system up is initially fun and after about 60 seconds seems "too loud" and I turn it down.  It's a good system.  Just not as enjoyable as I had hoped.

 

I've been looking for vintage speakers for several months now, on and off.  Some older full sized Boston Acoustics, like the A70 or a close cousin would be great.  A pair of Advent Large (which I've never personally heard) should really fit the bill.  I found some about 150 miles away, but they had a torn surround and a problem with a rear terminal.  So I opted to not spend 6 hours of driving time to get them.  I haven't really found anything else that fit the bill.

 

Until yesterday.  I almost didn't read the ad for "Kestrel Speakers", but something made me click and find out these are Meadowlark Kestrel Hot Rod speakers.  After reading a few reviews, these sounded like exactly the sonic profile I want.  A day later I drove 30 minutes to pick them up, in the rain.  They aren't in great shape, but not too bad.  Faded veneer, some chips, dust, and one damaged binding post.

 

But who cares about all that?  How do they sound already????

 

They sound really good.  Vocals at first appeared to be kind of "honky".  That "hands cupped around the mouth" sound.  But after listening for a while longer, I'm not sure that's true.  I think the Dentons are overly "chesty" for vocals making them sound artificially big and low and warm.  So by contrast the Kestrels sound less full and more "honky".  I'll know more after more listening.  

 

The tonal balance is really interesting.  I restored the tone controls on my NAD receiver to zero and pressed the defeat button.  There's no treble sharpness.  No overly impactful character.  Just good sound.  Surprisingly, the highs really are there.  Just not "sharp".   I've been listening at a higher average level than with the Dentons and am comfortable doing that.  I've turned it down and then back up several times, but nothing like the Dentons which wear me out super quickly.  I'm listening to multiple songs in a row at a medium-high volume and enjoying them.  I even played my benchmark for bright thin sound:  Van Halen's album 5150.  5150 has good songs on it in my opinion.  But the highs can tear your head off on the wrong system.  The Denton's did NOT like 5150.  But the Kestrels?  Bring it on.  "Dreams" sounds quite good on them and doesn't have me racing to turn it down.  It's still a thin bright 80s recording.  But it's pleasant on the Kestrels.

 

The bass is surprising for a 6.5" driver.  It's not going to impress someone looking for heavy bass.  Not in the slightest.  But it's rather extended and doesn't seem to need much help.  I've had my subwoofer turned way down for most of the listening and then off for a while.  The Kestrels are mostly just fine all by themselves.

 

That audiophile character of instrument separation is there in spades.  I've heard seemingly new things from a variety of songs.  Details that were kind of buried in the sonic wash are all coming out now. 

 

It's only been a hour or so of total listening so this is very early.  But so far, I'm very hopeful that these are going to be long term speakers for me.  The Dentons might go up for sale.

 

The curtain closes on this chapter of our tale with the hero smiling at his new sonic mistress....

 

Brian.

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Pleased to hear you’re getting somewhere. My original desk speakers were Spendor SA1s - certainly not a sharp speaker - but the tonal balance was never right. With some makeshift absorption here and there, they could be made pretty nice. But it wasn’t a practical setup.

 

I lived with it for a while, until I decided I wanted the SA1s in another room. There they had much more room gain in the bass and a far field listening position which took them from OK, to really nice.

 

Needing some replacement for my office, I setup some small Cambridge Audio speakers (SP30 maybe?) that I have for initial testing/run in of home built amps. Anyway - they are perfect. Bass from the rear port works well with the wall behind, and they are never bright or harsh.

 

My wild speculation here is that maybe lower resolution speakers work well for a “pleasant” sound in near field. Perhaps that’s what youre getting here. Also, with my Cambridge Audios, perhaps they were more quickly designed, primarily against direct measurements in an accoustic chamber. This could give a better near field tonal balance than something tweaked endlessly for a diffuse/far field position.

 

Finally - if you are using Roon - in the DSP section, add some inverse cross feed - so -R into L and -L into R. Just mess about, but I think I have it at about 18 or 20 dB lower than the main channel. Put simply it is a width vs centre for the sound stage - at least at low levels. If you overdo it things get weird, but applied carefully it could help with your lack of width issue.

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