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Ralf11

ok, camera nuts...

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19 hours ago, gmgraves said:

All of my interchangeable lens Nikons required me to multiply the focal length designation of each lens by a factor of 1.5. My last two digital cameras were a Nikon Coolpix P900 (24-2000mm equivalent optical zoom range) and my current camera is a Canon Powershot SX60 HS (20-1300 equivalent optical zoom range). The Nikon died after a year so I decided not to replace it with another Nikon. I find the Canon a much better camera in every way. I went the non-interchangeable lens route because, at my age, I was getting tired of schlepping a bag full of lenses along, and it made me think twice about taking a camera with me when I went on a trip.

 

Totally get that, and still have my Leica M3 and M6 because the form factor let me bring them with me everywhere.

 

I switched to a Canon DSLR (ultimately 5DII) and found that the form factor resulted in my not bringing it everywhere ... too heavy and bulky and obtrusive.

 

... the Sony (A7rIII) is smaller, and allows me to use those sweet Leica lenses (manual focus). No question the newer lenses are heavy. I can also use my Canon interchangeables on the Sony. 

 

It depends on how irritated you are with the current IQ ... If you've met AA then I'd consider getting a full frame mirrorless (Sony EF allows adapters to everything) and a manual 35mm pancake-ish lens to go along with the kit lens.


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I dropped FF and went to m43 (with Leica lenses)


"The overwhelming majority [of audiophiles] have very little knowledge, if any, about the most basic principles and operating characteristics of audio equipment. They often base their purchasing decisions on hearsay, and the preaching of media sages. Unfortunately, because of commercial considerations, much information is rooted in increasing revenue, not in assisting the audiophile. It seems as if the only requirements for becoming an "authority" in the world of audio is a keyboard."

-- Bruce Rozenblit of Transcendent Sound

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32 minutes ago, jabbr said:

 

Totally get that, and still have my Leica M3 and M6 because the form factor let me bring them with me everywhere.

 

I switched to a Canon DSLR (ultimately 5DII) and found that the form factor resulted in my not bringing it everywhere ... too heavy and bulky and obtrusive.

 

... the Sony (A7rIII) is smaller, and allows me to use those sweet Leica lenses (manual focus). No question the newer lenses are heavy. I can also use my Canon interchangeables on the Sony. 

 

It depends on how irritated you are with the current IQ ... If you've met AA then I'd consider getting a full frame mirrorless (Sony EF allows adapters to everything) and a manual 35mm pancake-ish lens to go along with the kit lens.

Not interested in going back to interchangeable lenses. Plus, being retired, I don’t have the disposable income I had when I was a single guy making $200K+ in Silicon Valley. Still single, but no longer able to live the hedonistic lifestyle that I was used to! At any rate, In spite of small sensor’s possible shortcomings, I find that my Canon SX60 HS suits my needs right down to the ground.


George

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10 hours ago, Ralf11 said:

I dropped FF and went to m43 (with Leica lenses)

 

If your camera is made by Panasonic, those lenses are licensed from Leica, not made by them. I have the 12-60 “Leica” lens for my GX8 but it’s nowhere close in price or image quality compared to an actual Leica lens. 

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2 hours ago, daverich4 said:

If your camera is made by Panasonic, those lenses are licensed from Leica, not made by them. I have the 12-60 “Leica” lens for my GX8 but it’s nowhere close in price or image quality compared to an actual Leica lens.

 

I thought he meant Leica lenses with something like this:

mft_lem.jpg

I'm no expert so I'm probably totally wrong of course.

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1 hour ago, accwai said:

I thought he meant Leica lenses with something like this:

That’s what I meant, the old 35mm Summilux https://kenrockwell.com/leica/35mm-f14.htm is tiny and while not the best sharpness of a modern lens, has a nice old fashioned glow ... oh god they are now >$2k on eBay!!! In any case that, along with a Sony a7 body will let you shoot in available darkness...


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5 hours ago, daverich4 said:

 

If your camera is made by Panasonic, those lenses are licensed from Leica, not made by them. I have the 12-60 “Leica” lens for my GX8 but it’s nowhere close in price or image quality compared to an actual Leica lens. 

 

that is why I put Leica in italics above - AFAIK, the lenses are designed by Leica, manf. by Panny, and then checked by a Leica team inside the factory

 

if you have any lens test data, or side by side imaging comparisons on L vs. P-L lenses, I'd be interested in seeing it


"The overwhelming majority [of audiophiles] have very little knowledge, if any, about the most basic principles and operating characteristics of audio equipment. They often base their purchasing decisions on hearsay, and the preaching of media sages. Unfortunately, because of commercial considerations, much information is rooted in increasing revenue, not in assisting the audiophile. It seems as if the only requirements for becoming an "authority" in the world of audio is a keyboard."

-- Bruce Rozenblit of Transcendent Sound

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11 minutes ago, Ralf11 said:

 

that is why I put Leica in italics above - AFAIK, the lenses are designed by Leica, manf. by Panny, and then checked by a Leica team inside the factory

 

if you have any lens test data, or side by side imaging comparisons on L vs. P-L lenses, I'd be interested in seeing it

 

The Leica/Panasonic collaboration goes back to the 90’s. As you said they’re manufactured by Panasonic with oversight from Leica. Panasonic describes the process as built to "Leica's lofty standards". My impression is that in the past Leica was more involved in the design than they are now. Considering how shitty my first one was I have a hard time believing Leica does any QC after manufacture. Something you should be aware of, unless something has changed in the last year, Panasonic USA doesn’t have the equipment to repair them. If it’s sent in during the warranty period they will replace it with a different one. If it’s out of warranty you can replace it yourself out of your own pocket or do without. Fortunately, mine was still under warranty. 

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Yes, I know about the replace only thing - one factor keeping Panasonic from being a viable replacement for a pro co. like Nicanon.

 

I like m43 as it is a LOT smaller & lighter, so I am more likely to carry it with me and consequently get certain landscape shots.

 

I still have the Hassy film camera (mostly just to hear the mirror thunk, which I find very euphonic) and recently spent a kilobuck to get it CLA'd.

 

I also kept some Nikon stuff, mostly old MF lenses and 2-3 bodies - micro lenses, and the famed "nice old fashioned glow" of bokeh from the 50/1.2 and 45/1.4

 

I do think the PL 12-60 is a good replacement for the 24-70 Nikkor, and some other adv. amateurs have also sold their Nikons.  One is a  friend and colleague whom I follow in photographic matters - via the "you first principle."  For example, I let him buy the Series 1 Nikon gear then watched as he dumped it after Nikon dumped the system - many $$$ down the rat hole.


"The overwhelming majority [of audiophiles] have very little knowledge, if any, about the most basic principles and operating characteristics of audio equipment. They often base their purchasing decisions on hearsay, and the preaching of media sages. Unfortunately, because of commercial considerations, much information is rooted in increasing revenue, not in assisting the audiophile. It seems as if the only requirements for becoming an "authority" in the world of audio is a keyboard."

-- Bruce Rozenblit of Transcendent Sound

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2 hours ago, daverich4 said:

 

The Leica/Panasonic collaboration goes back to the 90’s. As you said they’re manufactured by Panasonic with oversight from Leica. Panasonic describes the process as built to "Leica's lofty standards". My impression is that in the past Leica was more involved in the design than they are now. Considering how shitty my first one was I have a hard time believing Leica does any QC after manufacture. Something you should be aware of, unless something has changed in the last year, Panasonic USA doesn’t have the equipment to repair them. If it’s sent in during the warranty period they will replace it with a different one. If it’s out of warranty you can replace it yourself out of your own pocket or do without. Fortunately, mine was still under warranty. 

 

I think a better question might be: How much Panasonic is there in a Leica?

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2 hours ago, Ralf11 said:

I also kept some Nikon stuff, mostly old MF lenses and 2-3 bodies - micro lenses, and the famed "nice old fashioned glow" of bokeh from the 50/1.2 and 45/1.4

 

What year is the 45/1.4 from? -- never seen one, never heard of one.

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16 hours ago, Ralf11 said:

I also kept some Nikon stuff, mostly old MF lenses and 2-3 bodies - micro lenses, and the famed "nice old fashioned glow" of bokeh from the 50/1.2 and 45/1.4

 

13 hours ago, lucretius said:

What year is the 45/1.4 from? -- never seen one, never heard of one.

 

He did say manual focus and micro, so he probably meant 45/2.8 PC-E Micro:

 

product_01.png

 

It does go to 0.5× magnification as oppose to the Canon 45/2.8 TS-E which goes to 0.16× only. I'm no expert but would imagine the Canon has stopped at a rather awkward place.

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49 minutes ago, accwai said:

 

 

He did say manual focus and micro, so he probably meant 45/2.8 PC-E Micro:

 

product_01.png

 

It does go to 0.5× magnification as oppose to the Canon 45/2.8 TS-E which goes to 0.16× only. I'm no expert but would imagine the Canon has stopped at a rather awkward place.

 

Thanks.  I do know about that Nikon lens.

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sadly, I made a typo - it is the 35/1.4 MF Nikkor

 

https://www.casualphotophile.com/2017/01/16/nikon-nikkor-35mm-f1-4-the-fastest-35mm-nikon-lens-ever/

 

 

the Micro Nikkors I kept are MF 55mm - one compensating & one not:

 

https://www.dpreview.com/forums/post/55256540

 

 

I also have a kit zoom 24-85 AF-S, a screw drive 100mm micro, pre-Ai 24mm, and 2-3 50mm lenses.  I have the 80-400 AF-S tele zoom also, but will try to sell it and get the 100-400 (200-800mm equiv.) Panny-Leica.

 


"The overwhelming majority [of audiophiles] have very little knowledge, if any, about the most basic principles and operating characteristics of audio equipment. They often base their purchasing decisions on hearsay, and the preaching of media sages. Unfortunately, because of commercial considerations, much information is rooted in increasing revenue, not in assisting the audiophile. It seems as if the only requirements for becoming an "authority" in the world of audio is a keyboard."

-- Bruce Rozenblit of Transcendent Sound

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5 hours ago, Ralf11 said:

sadly, I made a typo - it is the 35/1.4 MF Nikkor

 

https://www.casualphotophile.com/2017/01/16/nikon-nikkor-35mm-f1-4-the-fastest-35mm-nikon-lens-ever/

 

 

the Micro Nikkors I kept are MF 55mm - one compensating & one not:

 

https://www.dpreview.com/forums/post/55256540

 

 

I also have a kit zoom 24-85 AF-S, a screw drive 100mm micro, pre-Ai 24mm, and 2-3 50mm lenses.  I have the 80-400 AF-S tele zoom also, but will try to sell it and get the 100-400 (200-800mm equiv.) Panny-Leica.

 

 

I still have these full frame Nikon lenses lying around:

  1. 28/2.8 Ai-S MF
  2. 35/1.8 G AF-S ED
  3. 45/2.8 Ai-P MF
  4. 50/1.2 Ai-S MF
  5. 50/1.4 Ai-S MF
  6. 50/1.8 G AF-S
  7. 55/2.8 Ai-S Micro MF
  8. 85/1.8 G AF-S
  9. 105/2.5 Ai-S MF

I always intended to ditch #'s 5 and 7 but lately have been contemplating getting rid of them all along with a Nikon Df and a Nikon FM3a.

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I'd sell 5 & 6... but I like macro work


"The overwhelming majority [of audiophiles] have very little knowledge, if any, about the most basic principles and operating characteristics of audio equipment. They often base their purchasing decisions on hearsay, and the preaching of media sages. Unfortunately, because of commercial considerations, much information is rooted in increasing revenue, not in assisting the audiophile. It seems as if the only requirements for becoming an "authority" in the world of audio is a keyboard."

-- Bruce Rozenblit of Transcendent Sound

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On 6/18/2019 at 2:21 PM, lucretius said:

 

I think a better question might be: How much Panasonic is there in a Leica?

 

At one time, Leicaflex cameras were basically Minolta innards refined and installed in Leica-built bodies and some Leica lenses were Minolta glass in German Leica-made mechanicals.

in the 1970’s when Popular Photography was still around and testing lenses, it was easy to see that generally speaking, Nikkor,  Canon, and Asahi Takumar lenses performed better than did either Leica or Zeis-Ikon lenses. In tests between Hassleblad optics by Zeis, and Bronica lenses by Nikkor, that Bronica optics were superior


George

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both negative posts above relate to Leica being a small manf.  - once you leave Mechano-land and move into the world of electronics, big co.s are able to deploy teams o engineers to create fast focus motors (not to mention CAE optical designs)

 

both Zeiss & Leica have teamed up with large co.s to help address this

 

the same thing applies to cars: Porsche got along for several decades by generating income for their engineering staff to design for other car co.s - only about half the income of P AG was from the car division, with the rest from the design firm staff

 

Today, large co.s in Japan are eating away VWAG, MD, and even BMW who used to won the luxury market - but what is a luxury car today?


"The overwhelming majority [of audiophiles] have very little knowledge, if any, about the most basic principles and operating characteristics of audio equipment. They often base their purchasing decisions on hearsay, and the preaching of media sages. Unfortunately, because of commercial considerations, much information is rooted in increasing revenue, not in assisting the audiophile. It seems as if the only requirements for becoming an "authority" in the world of audio is a keyboard."

-- Bruce Rozenblit of Transcendent Sound

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8 hours ago, Ralf11 said:

[...] but what is a luxury car today?

 

The Flying Pig:

 

Lamborghini-Urus-yellow-side-view-on-black-side-view_o.jpg

 

Note huge size difference in brake calipers. Weight transfer on braking must be really brutal x-D

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12 hours ago, gmgraves said:

At one time, Leicaflex cameras were basically Minolta innards refined and installed in Leica-built bodies and some Leica lenses were Minolta glass in German Leica-made mechanicals.

in the 1970’s when Popular Photography was still around and testing lenses, it was easy to see that generally speaking, Nikkor,  Canon, and Asahi Takumar lenses performed better than did either Leica or Zeis-Ikon lenses. In tests between Hassleblad optics by Zeis, and Bronica lenses by Nikkor, that Bronica optics were superior

 

Not sure where you're getting this from. Leica did make a compact camera in conjunction with Minolta called the CL, and two lenses for that (a 40 and a 90). They may have supplied some electronics for the SLR's, but in general were all German designed and built (and consequently the electronics were always the weak link). Leica did have a few lenses made in Canada in the '70's and '80's to exacting German standards. 

 

I doubt Leica or Zeiss lenses were ever bested by Nikkor's and Canons. Maybe on a unique lens to lens basis (and Nikon/Canon made a lot more lenses at the extremes than Leica, (they also had huge aerospace etc contracts to do r&d)), but not as a whole. A 28 Elmarit M will blow a Nikkor 28/2.8 AIS out of the water (also a very good lens). Keep in mind also that Leica M lenses were designed to be their best wide open or near so. The Japanese did make some very fine glass though. In the darkroom I always used Fujinon enlarging lenses which at the time were cheap and considered even better than Rodenstock APO's by many. When I got out of the darkroom I sold mine to my local lab - the owner grabbed them up as quickly as he could. 


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1 hour ago, charlesphoto said:

Leica did make a compact camera in conjunction with Minolta called the CL, and two lenses for that (a 40 and a 90). They may have supplied some electronics for the SLR's, but in general were all German designed and built (and consequently the electronics were always the weak link). Leica did have a few lenses made in Canada in the '70's and '80's to exacting German standards. 

 

The Leicaflex R3 was essentially a Minolta design, and I’d say that the SL/SL2 were the last truly Leica native SLRs...


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13 hours ago, charlesphoto said:

 

Not sure where you're getting this from. Leica did make a compact camera in conjunction with Minolta called the CL, and two lenses for that (a 40 and a 90). They may have supplied some electronics for the SLR's, but in general were all German designed and built (and consequently the electronics were always the weak link). Leica did have a few lenses made in Canada in the '70's and '80's to exacting German standards. 

 

I doubt Leica or Zeiss lenses were ever bested by Nikkor's and Canons. Maybe on a unique lens to lens basis (and Nikon/Canon made a lot more lenses at the extremes than Leica, (they also had huge aerospace etc contracts to do r&d)), but not as a whole. A 28 Elmarit M will blow a Nikkor 28/2.8 AIS out of the water (also a very good lens). Keep in mind also that Leica M lenses were designed to be their best wide open or near so. The Japanese did make some very fine glass though. In the darkroom I always used Fujinon enlarging lenses which at the time were cheap and considered even better than Rodenstock APO's by many. When I got out of the darkroom I sold mine to my local lab - the owner grabbed them up as quickly as he could. 

The Leicaflex R3 was indeed based on a Minolta SLR. I recall clearly a review of the R3 in either Popular Photography or Modern Photography where they showed shots of both a disassembled R3 and the Minolta camera upon which it was based. The mechanical parts looked identical except that the parts used in the R3 had undergone more “finishing” and were more refined (Leica had to justify their exorbitant pricing somehow!).

As I recall, the Minolta lens glass was used in early Leica zoom lenses, particularly the 70 to 210 mm “Vario-Elmar”. There may have been others.

that Leica glass is or was generally better than Japanese Canon, Nikkor, or Takumar is a matter of personal opinion, and not backed-up by lens test results in Pop or Modern Photography back in the day. One place where the Leica glass was better than any of the Japanese glass was in the 50 mm f1.4 Summalux, but the reality is that lenses are spotty. For instance, the Nikkor 90mm f2.0 portrait lens was one of their best lenses while the 135mm f2.0 was one of their worst and Canon’s equivalent lens was excellent. The Leica 135mm f3.5 was an extremely good lens while their 135mm f2.0 was not as good as any of the three Japanese lens of the same focal length and lens speed. Leica was very late to the zoom lens market (as well as the SLR market). Leica’s Prime lenses for the M series of range finder cameras was their metier.

I agree about the Fujinon enlarging lenses. I had two, one for 35mm and one for two-and-a-quarter.


George

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6 hours ago, gmgraves said:

the reality is that lenses are spotty. For instance, the Nikkor 90mm f2.0 portrait lens was one of their best lenses while the 135mm f2.0 was one of their worst and Canon’s equivalent lens was excellent. The Leica 135mm f3.5 was an extremely good lens while their 135mm f2.0 was not as good as any of the three Japanese lens of the same focal length and lens speed. 

 

Are we still comparing Leica R (SLR) to Nikon/Canon? This is like comparing a Porsche minivan to a Honda Odyssey! 

 

135 kinda pushing it for rangefinder. The Leica M shined for street and unobtrusive photography. When you want to take great photos without having a hunking camera. Also compare only wide open 😉


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