What angle do you have for speaker positions?

[fas42]

7 hours ago, Summit said:

 

I can’t say that am surprised you haven’t even tried different speaker positioning.

 

The number one requirement is that distortion from the playback path is inaudible - most people are very much aware of this, but don't think of it in those terms; Sonicularity described it, above, as "the harsh mids/upper-mids that appeared a little too screechy for my tastes." ... but few do what's necessary to resolve this.

 

If your ears can't detect these sort of distortion anomalies, then where you listen from becomes irrelevant; your mind doesn't have to work overtime, unconsciously filtering out what the brain knows doesn't belong.

[FIndingit]

How can you precisely tell the angle is 10, 15 or some other degree than 90 or 45? Do you measure it or do I just lack this ability?

[4est]

1 hour ago, FIndingit said:

How can you precisely tell the angle is 10, 15 or some other degree than 90 or 45? Do you measure it or do I just lack this ability?

iPhone App? 

[semente]

On 5/29/2019 at 8:09 AM, PeterSt said:

This is mostly bass related which is here (audibly) undistorted up to 19Hz at 89dBSPL (measured as in 19Hz is really inaudible at 89dBSPL).

As soon as de toe-in becomes too much, the bass waves are going to interact with each other and bass becomes fuzzy. This, while extra reflection on the side walls apparently (?) is harmless.

Peter,

 

Are you saying that you have sub-bass horns? Wouldn't it be massive, as per this diagram?

 

 

How wide to you reckon is the dispersion at 19Hz, -6dB at 15º? And at 40Hz?

[PeterSt]

Hi Ricardo,

 

Well caught. But the bass section of my speakers is an open baffle wave guide. You can find them in my Sig.

 

Peter

[tmtomh]

I have a small room, which constrains how wide I can put the speakers apart. But even within that limitation, I found that the imaging and overall sound quality of my system improved when I moved the speakers closer together, probably because it enabled me to move them farther from the side walls. Currently the angle is significantly narrower than 60 degrees - I believe it's between 40 and 45 degrees.

 

Soon I'm moving into a new place with a larger listening space, so I'll likely space them a bit wider again, though my listening spot will also be a bit farther from from the speakers. I'm guessing I'll end up with about a 50 degree angle.

 

And I've been similarly surprised that my system images better when I reduce the toe-in. The speakers are nearly facing directly forward, with very little toe-in.

[semente]

39 minutes ago, PeterSt said:

Hi Ricardo,

 

Well caught. But the bass section of my speakers is an open baffle wave guide. You can find them in my Sig.

 

Peter

 

That makes more sense. I can't see your signature on the phone, is the back wave also waveguided?

I remember seeing a photo and that you'd stacked a few woofers...

[PeterSt]

10 minutes ago, semente said:

I remember seeing a photo and that you'd stacked a few woofers...

 

 

[Doak]

nevermind 

[sphinxsix]

The distance between the speakers usually ca 3m, 30-50 cm more from the sweet spot to the speakers, IMO if the SS-speakers distance is equal or shorter to the distance between speakers there are usually problems with imaging in the center of sounstage, but I've heard of some people from Audio Physic who suggested trying ca 160 degrees angle to achieve interesting soundstaging. Interesting it surely is but I didn't like it. Think I'm oldschool.

I also tried 0 degree angle (one speaker behind the other) to increase the soundstage depth but unexpectedly lost stereo 

 

[esldude]

9 hours ago, FIndingit said:

How can you precisely tell the angle is 10, 15 or some other degree than 90 or 45? Do you measure it or do I just lack this ability?

Measuring with a measuring tape is one way.   

 

You can measure distance between the speakers.  And then measure the distance between one speaker and the listening position (assuming they are symmetrically place vs the listening position).  

 

Perhaps a simpler method is to measure the distance between the speakers, and the distance from halfway between the speakers (the center position) and the listening seat.  

 

From there a little trigonometry to get the angles.  You can put the values in an online right angle calculator. It will give you the angles.  Or:

Let us say your speakers are 10 ft apart, and you sit 12 feet from the center line of the speakers.  The center to one speaker is 5 ft.

The triangle you are using is 5 ft by 12 ft.   So divide 5 by 12 and get the inverse tangent of that on a calculator.  You'll get 22 degrees.  This indicates your speakers are +/- 22 degrees or 44 degrees total from the listening position.  

 

 

[sphinxsix]

1 hour ago, sphinxsix said:

people from Audio Physic who suggested trying ca 160 degrees angle to achieve interesting soundstaging

Here's the detailed description of the method:

Audio Physics Speaker Placement Method

I've performed lots of home audio installations and IMO there is no perfect method for speakers placement but as for even bass the old Focal equation is IMO very useful.

[Le Concombre Masqué]

19 hours ago, fas42 said:

 

The number one requirement is that distortion from the playback path is inaudible - most people are very much aware of this, but don't think of it in those terms; Sonicularity described it, above, as "the harsh mids/upper-mids that appeared a little too screechy for my tastes." ... but few do what's necessary to resolve this.

 

If your ears can't detect these sort of distortion anomalies, then where you listen from becomes irrelevant; your mind doesn't have to work overtime, unconsciously filtering out what the brain knows doesn't belong.

do you ever attend concerts ? and if so, do you prefer to be in the bathroom in the lobby or in one of the best seats?

[Ralf11]

I wonder if I should put the ribbons on the outside?

[semente]

On 5/29/2019 at 5:42 AM, esldude said:

From the listening position what is the angle between your stereo speakers?

 

I'm getting around 42º.

My current sitting room is so tiny that I'm almost in headphone territory...

[esldude]

49 minutes ago, Ralf11 said:

I wonder if I should put the ribbons on the outside?

Maggies they should go on the inside.  Of course back when I had such I tried them both ways.  Ribbons on the inside won.  

[Ajax]

On 5/30/2019 at 2:56 AM, Hugo9000 said:

I'm not entirely being contrary by specifying yards, as I made the initial measurements using my beautiful stainless steel yard stick/rule haha!  Remember yard sticks, ye older folk?   

 

My Grade 5 teacher, Dick Hurn, use to hit me with one for talking.

 

He would make you go up the front of the classroom, turn around and bend over, and watch 30 other kids laughing at you while he belted the crap out of your arse. The only way to "save face", that is not wince and cry out, was to put a writing pad down your pants (if you had the time). Bloody hurt if you didn't.

[phosphorein]

1 hour ago, esldude said:

Maggies they should go on the inside.  Of course back when I had such I tried them both ways.  Ribbons on the inside won.  

 

In my experience with the T-1D’s it depends on the distance between the speakers and where they are situated in the room and the distance of the speakers to your LP. As esldude said, try it both ways.

 

[fas42]

3 hours ago, Le Concombre Masqué said:

do you ever attend concerts ? and if so, do you prefer to be in the bathroom in the lobby or in one of the best seats?

 

Très amusants ... umm, I "prefer" the quality of liveness - and, strangely enough, that never gets lost when listening to live instruments; whether in the "best seats", or while out in the lobby, or within a couple of feet of someone going for it on an instrument. Far better than a concert is coming upon a busker; what does he sound like when you can reach out and touch the instrument, you're that close; as compared to hearing him after going around a corner down the street. And, most peculiar of all, I don't think of "harsh, screechy mids/upper-mids" when getting a earful of real world music making ...

 

Audio rigs usually fall down badly, in at least one extreme of where one is listening ... they don't have to, but that's where 'conjuring' comes in, .

[Jud]

I just follow the Vandersteen manual, which calls for little if any toe-in. My speakers are a half inch closer to the back wall on the inside vs. the outside.  That's across a 16" speaker width, so is that 180/32, IOW between 84 and 85 degrees? Sounds about right.  Speakers are just shy of 12 feet from the listening position.

[Le Concombre Masqué]

7 hours ago, fas42 said:

 

Très amusants ... umm, I "prefer" the quality of liveness - and, strangely enough, that never gets lost when listening to live instruments; whether in the "best seats", or while out in the lobby, or within a couple of feet of someone going for it on an instrument. Far better than a concert is coming upon a busker; what does he sound like when you can reach out and touch the instrument, you're that close; as compared to hearing him after going around a corner down the street. And, most peculiar of all, I don't think of "harsh, screechy mids/upper-mids" when getting a earful of real world music making ...

 

Audio rigs usually fall down badly, in at least one extreme of where one is listening ... they don't have to, but that's where 'conjuring' comes in, .

seconds before I come upon a busker it's not the absence of harsh etc that leads me to identify live music it's... euh, liveliness, that is speed, integration/coherence of the whole frequency range

[semente]

7 hours ago, Jud said:

I just follow the Vandersteen manual, which calls for little if any toe-in. My speakers are a half inch closer to the back wall on the inside vs. the outside.  That's across a 16" speaker width, so is that 180/32, IOW between 84 and 85 degrees? Sounds about right.  Speakers are just shy of 12 feet from the listening position.

 

This sounds like a strange recomendation to make since your speakers are flattest on-axis.

 

Unless you are using speakers which were deliberatly designed to be flat off-axis like Dalis (at 30º) which produce a V-shapped response on-axis. It's a bad idea, though, because it's putting too much energy into the room and towards the side-walls. Wide dispersion is a bad idea...unless you prefer fake "spaciousness" over crisp images and correct tonal balance. It also makes speaker design more difficult because balance at the listening spot is too dependent on room (proximity to side-walls and side-wall characteristics).

 

[marce]

16 hours ago, Le Concombre Masqué said:

do you ever attend concerts ? and if so, do you prefer to be in the bathroom in the lobby or in one of the best seats?

Mosh pit.

[sphinxsix]

3 hours ago, marce said:

Mosh pit.

I'd love to see classical music fans moshing, headbanging or at least pogoing during a concert  

[Jud]

9 hours ago, semente said:

It also makes speaker design more difficult because balance at the listening spot is too dependent on room (proximity to side-walls and side-wall characteristics).

 

The manual also has very detailed and specific instructions regarding placement with respect to walls, and vertical angle (which is adjustable).

 

I've purchased a calibrated mic and stand, and will get around to using it one of these months or years when I have the time. 🙂 I would use it to tweak room placement, but currently feel it's unlikely I'd use EQ software.