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Pretty simple.  From the listening position what is the angle between your stereo speakers? 

 

Might be nice to know the distance you sit from them as well.  If you want to list speaker type that would be nice. 

 

To prevent confusion some people might say plus and minus 30 degrees for speakers that create a total 60 degree angle.  Or they might say the speakers form an angle of 60 degrees.  Just be clear which way you are looking at it.  Both of these illustrations are for the same speaker placement.  60 degrees or +/- 30 degrees. 

 

Pitch_Perfect_Image-e1426194333535.jpgspeaker-angle.gif

 

 


To paraphrase Rick James, "sighted listening is a helluva drug".

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My speakers and chair are on an equilateral triangle as in the diagram. I cross my speakers axis about 2-3 feet in front of my ears. I tried this 'cause it's what Ken Ishiwata recommends and I like it better than other angle arrangements. You will have to experiment to find what works for you in your room. 

 

AnotherSpin--No. Change the balance at the pre-amp. Sitting closer to one speaker changes R-L phase relationships as well as sound level.

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Why not determine the positions by listening? For instance the Wilson Audio Speaker Placement procedure? 

There is no reason to be mathematically perfect with these angles.

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11 minutes ago, JanRSmit said:

Why not determine the positions by listening? For instance the Wilson Audio Speaker Placement procedure? 

There is no reason to be mathematically perfect with these angles.

You can choose them any way you want.  I wanted a survey of what people are using.  I'm not asking for any mathematical perfection just wondering how people approach this and what they end up with. 

 

BTW, one of the things the Wilson procedure will do along with how he describes it, is it will put you near or within the critical distance from the LP.  The distance at which room reflections equal sound from the speaker.  

 

 


To paraphrase Rick James, "sighted listening is a helluva drug".

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I feel I miss a data point;

Supposed my speakers would aim straight forward. What would be the angle you are asking for ?

Hint: If you replaced my straight forward beaming speakers in your (OP's) picture, the answer to your question would still be 60 degrees. Am I right ? IOW, something lacks ? ... maybe I just don't get it (would not be unusual :|).


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2 minutes ago, PeterSt said:

I feel I miss a data point;

Supposed my speakers would aim straight forward. What would be the angle you are asking for ?

Hint: If you replaced my straight forward beaming speakers in your (OP's) picture, the answer to your question would still be 60 degrees. Am I right ? IOW, something lacks ? ... maybe I just don't get it (would not be unusual :|).

You are correct.  Just basically the angle the drivers make with the listening position.  So at the same angle you might aim your speakers straight ahead, straight at the LP, crossing in front of you (what I usually do) or crossing just behind you.  


To paraphrase Rick James, "sighted listening is a helluva drug".

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OK. A more difficult answer from me then, with the notice I use horns:

 

It does not matter.

With this it is not be noted that I don't use, have (that I know if) or want a sweet spot. Instead it is everywhere.

On estimate I can listen between anything of ~110 degrees (say 4 meters distance with speakers 6 meters apart) till 50 degrees or so (listening is now at 10-12 meters distance).

 

but

 

The toe-ing makes a wild difference. Actually the beam should always cross behind me, but it's not even about that beam (angle). It is about how the speakers react / interact with the room. This is mostly bass related which is here (audibly) undistorted up to 19Hz at 89dBSPL (measured as in 19Hz is really inaudible at 89dBSPL).

As soon as de toe-in becomes too much, the bass waves are going to interact with each other and bass becomes fuzzy. This, while extra reflection on the side walls apparently (?) is harmless.

 

OffTopic:

I feel there is no real recipe for this. What I do know is that this works so for every owner of this particular speaker (and it is not so intuitive at all to have so few toe-in (say 15 degrees if that is an understandable figure)).

So envision, be at 4 meters distance with speakers 6 meters apart (crossing a mile behind me) and all works as well as listening at this 10-12 meters distance (still crossing behind). It would be so though, that at the short distance the depth is only max those 4 meters as well (actually it will be 2 meters or so). At the long distance the depth is actually 4-5 meters for normal "staging" but can be all the way to you (10-12 meters) for higher frequencies and sounds(capes) created for that.

 


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42 minutes ago, GregWormald said:

My speakers and chair are on an equilateral triangle as in the diagram. I cross my speakers axis about 2-3 feet in front of my ears. I tried this 'cause it's what Ken Ishiwata recommends and I like it better than other angle arrangements. You will have to experiment to find what works for you in your room. 

 

AnotherSpin--No. Change the balance at the pre-amp. Sitting closer to one speaker changes R-L phase relationships as well as sound level.

 

It was a joke. I do not care about "position" when I listen music.

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I have never played with speaker positioning, at all; they are just placed wherever it's most convenient, or to make it easy to fiddle with the rig. As far as the listening position is concerned, there is no such animal; I almost never sit down "to listen" - which means that the sound has to be good enough to 'work', whatever I'm doing and wherever I am in the house - yes, like Peter, :).

 

The sound has to be convincing from the other end of the house, and also directly in front of a speaker on one side; when the SQ is good enough there is nothing gained from actually positioning myself in the so-called sweet spot.


Frank

 

http://artofaudioconjuring.blogspot.com/

 

 

Ahhh, Mankind ... Porsche intellect, Trabant emotions ...

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B&W 803D

3.15 metres apart

3.6 metres from tweeter to ear

Very little toe-in, just a few degrees

I also use room correction

I probably sit in the main LP 30% of the total playing time (if that)

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2m between the centers of the speakers, and 3.5m from the middle spot between speakers to the LP, so about 32 degrees, is that right?  This was dictated by the room dimensions rather than by any audio considerations. Speaker axis are crossed well behind the LP (very little toe-in). Speakers are PSB Stratus Gold. 

 

For me these produce a very deep, very convincing sound stage. They seem to benefit hugely from the floor they are mounted on. Cement floor in my basement makes them sing. Wood floors upstairs, not so much. Oh, and I listen mostly from the LP, since walking around the room is nearly impossible with all the wires, parts, and unfinished projects all over the floor O.o

 

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I have roughly the standard setup in both systems, listening distance is about 2.5 meters. In "living room" (combined open kitchen, dining space and living room) I have about 5+ meters of free space behind the listening position. So not much rear reflections. Room height is about 3.5 meters.

 


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6 hours ago, GregWormald said:

My speakers and chair are on an equilateral triangle as in the diagram. I cross my speakers axis about 2-3 feet in front of my ears. I tried this 'cause it's what Ken Ishiwata recommends and I like it better than other angle arrangements. You will have to experiment to find what works for you in your room. 

 

AnotherSpin--No. Change the balance at the pre-amp. Sitting closer to one speaker changes R-L phase relationships as well as sound level.

I use big old Cabasse and Cabasse suggested 1.5 x time the distance between speakers as the distance between center of speakers and  LP. An old french paper L' Audiophile demonstrated that the sweet spot widens back the theoretical equilateral triangle LP.

 

Hence I cross axes at equilateral triangle position but sit further back


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9 hours ago, esldude said:

Pretty simple.  From the listening position what is the angle between your stereo speakers? 

 

Might be nice to know the distance you sit from them as well.  If you want to list speaker type that would be nice. 

 

To prevent confusion some people might say plus and minus 30 degrees for speakers that create a total 60 degree angle.  Or they might say the speakers form an angle of 60 degrees.  Just be clear which way you are looking at it.  Both of these illustrations are for the same speaker placement.  60 degrees or +/- 30 degrees. 

 

Pitch_Perfect_Image-e1426194333535.jpgspeaker-angle.gif

 

 

 

I venture my speakers are toed in about 18 degrees while the distance between the speakers and my ears is 12 ft where the axis point is perhaps 3 ft behind my ears.  The front of the woofer centers are about 7.5 ft out from the front wall - which to me is a more important setting.

 


The more I dabble with extreme forms of electrical mgmt. and extreme forms of vibration mgmt., the more I’m convinced it’s all just variations of managing mechanical energy. Or was it all just variations of managing electrical energy? No, it’s all just variations of mechanical energy.

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8 hours ago, fas42 said:

I have never played with speaker positioning, at all; they are just placed wherever it's most convenient, or to make it easy to fiddle with the rig. As far as the listening position is concerned, there is no such animal; I almost never sit down "to listen" - which means that the sound has to be good enough to 'work', whatever I'm doing and wherever I am in the house - yes, like Peter, :).

 

The sound has to be convincing from the other end of the house, and also directly in front of a speaker on one side; when the SQ is good enough there is nothing gained from actually positioning myself in the so-called sweet spot.

 

I can’t say that am surprised you haven’t even tried different speaker positioning.

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KEF XQ5s are 1 yard out from the wall, and 3 yards apart (center to center).  My listening position forms an equilateral triangle with speakers, although I occasionally move a foot or so closer to the speakers.  Speakers are toed in 15 degrees.

 

KEF LS50s are on IsoAcoustics stands on my desk, 1 yard apart (center to center), rear is 1 foot from the wall.  No toe-in.  My typical chair position forms an equilateral triangle with the speakers.

 

P.S.  I'm not entirely being contrary by specifying yards, as I made the initial measurements using my beautiful stainless steel yard stick/rule haha!  Remember yard sticks, ye older folk?  :D 

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Being a bit of a bass head that prefers a V-shaped EQ, I would recommend to most people like myself not to point a pair of Klipsch speakers directly at the listening position with the horns at ear level.    I would assume a similar experience would be to bite down on sandpaper while tugging it out with your teeth clenched down on it.   For me to enjoy my RP-280F floor-standing speakers in a quasi-nearfield solution, I had to seriously tweak the sound with my DAC's EQ and significantly reduce any toe-in so that the horns were pointed at a spot much further behind my head.  This drastically reduced the harsh mids/upper-mids that appeared a little too screechy for my tastes.

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Straight forward, as most branded speakers are designed for. With any brand that does that design based on the principles derived from NRC research, the speakers are voiced for the them to be pointed straight forward for the ideal % of direct/reflected sound. That's how they are measured and that's how they are oriented when being compared with other speakers running a standard abx test.

 

The old equilateral triangle convention was developed before the NRC research was done in the 90s and is really meant just to make sure the listener has the flattest frequency response possible back when drivers weren't designed for uniform dispersion. These days you really only need to do that kind of toe-in for boutique brands using drivers that have mismatched directivity or poor off-axis response. 

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48 minutes ago, Hugo9000 said:

KEF XQ5s are 1 yard out from the wall, and 3 yards apart (center to center).  My listening position forms an equilateral triangle with speakers, although I occasionally move a foot or so closer to the speakers.  Speakers are toed in 15 degrees.

 

KEF LS50s are on IsoAcoustics stands on my desk, 1 yard apart (center to center), rear is 1 foot from the wall.  No toe-in.  My typical chair position forms an equilateral triangle with the speakers.

 

P.S.  I'm not entirely being contrary by specifying yards, as I made the initial measurements using my beautiful stainless steel yard stick/rule haha!  Remember yard sticks, ye older folk?  :D 

It would be more scientific if you used a meter stick.  

 

https://www.homesciencetools.com/product/meterstick-100-cm/

 

🤠


To paraphrase Rick James, "sighted listening is a helluva drug".

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6 minutes ago, pippenainteasy said:

Straight forward, as most branded speakers are designed for. With Harman, KEF, or any brand that does that design based on NRC research, the speakers are voiced for the them to be pointed straight forward for the ideal % of direct/reflected sound. That's how they measure and that's how they do industry standard DBX tests.

 

The old equilateral triangle convention was developed before NRC research was done in the 90s and is really meant just to make sure the listener has the flattest frequency response possible back when drivers weren't designed for uniform dispersion. These days you really only need to do that kind of toe-in for boutique brands using drivers that have mismatched directivity. 

I think there are some misunderstandings in your post or in my reading of it. 

 

Are you saying the NRC designs are so you point the speaker straight ahead and not at the listener position?

 

NRC guidelines are to have off axis response very even, but downward sloping vs the straight ahead response.  This is to reduce the unwanted effects of reflections.  But even with those, maybe especially with those, the flattest best sounding response would be to point the drivers directly at the listening position.  

 

Some non-NRC style designs for instance might have 1st order crossovers.  Those can have bad lobing on and off axis.  On those you might need to fire the speaker straight ahead to reduce some suckouts or peaks that are undesirable that occur on axis.  


To paraphrase Rick James, "sighted listening is a helluva drug".

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isosceles triangle - slightly longer than equi-angular triangle, but I use Maggies...


"The overwhelming majority [of audiophiles] have very little knowledge, if any, about the most basic principles and operating characteristics of audio equipment. They often base their purchasing decisions on hearsay, and the preaching of media sages. Unfortunately, because of commercial considerations, much information is rooted in increasing revenue, not in assisting the audiophile. It seems as if the only requirements for becoming an "authority" in the world of audio is a keyboard."

-- Bruce Rozenblit of Transcendent Sound

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10 hours ago, pkane2001 said:

 

For me these produce a very deep, very convincing sound stage. They seem to benefit hugely from the floor they are mounted on. Cement floor in my basement makes them sing. Wood floors upstairs, not so much. Oh, and I listen mostly from the LP, since walking around the room is nearly impossible with all the wires, parts, and unfinished projects all over the floor O.o

 

 

Yes, one thing that's crucial with speakers is to provide a means for transferring or attenuating vibrational energy - mass loading is probably the best term to use, and something I have always used; the lighter the speaker cabinet, the more important it is.

 

Lots of To Do stuff everywhere? ... a man after my own heart ... ^_^.


Frank

 

http://artofaudioconjuring.blogspot.com/

 

 

Ahhh, Mankind ... Porsche intellect, Trabant emotions ...

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