The Environmental thread + Conventional (HI-FI) wisdom is almost always invariably wrong

[esldude]

20 minutes ago, Allan F said:

 

No need for a link. I can't imagine any listener, other than perhaps a recording engineer, placing his/her speakers based on the miking used for a recording - if that information was even available. I thought you were speaking more generally.

In a few tests done over the years, where they record either small groups of musicians or people walking around an area speaking, crossed figure 8's with 90 degree speaker separation are the most accurate to reality.  Crossed figure 8s do as well as others and better than most even at 60 degree separation of speakers.  But there is some built in inaccuracy. 

 

Now with almost everything being something other than a stereo pair recording it doesn't really matter.  People have settled on 60 degrees and most likely studio creations are made for that use.  Audiophiles basically use whatever fits the space they have even then.  From my experience most audiophile people use something less than 60 degrees.  I would say if I had to pick a number based upon what I've seen I'd pick 45 degrees as closer to a real world average. 

 

Maybe some people could do a bit of measuring and list what their speakers are set up with for the angle.  

 

My Soundlabs are about 50 degrees.  Due to room constraints. 

 

My video speakers which I listen to more than previously are 60 degrees.  I've an alternate location for the LP and can re-aim the front speakers for 75 degrees. 

 

I've some monitor speakers I can set up on stands, sometimes used nearfield and usually will go with 75 degrees though I can put them where I want like for listening to some crossed figure 8 recordings. 

 

Actually I'll just start a new thread on this. 

 

 

 

[Allan F]

14 minutes ago, esldude said:

Now with almost everything being something other than a stereo pair recording it doesn't really matter.  People have settled on 60 degrees and most likely studio creations are made for that use.  Audiophiles basically use whatever fits the space they have even then.  From my experience most audiophile people use something less than 60 degrees.  I would say if I had to pick a number based upon what I've seen I'd pick 45 degrees as closer to a real world average.

 

I believe that the final angle of placement that most people choose is based on the speaker's on/off axis response in their listening room. Some speakers sound best with a lot of toe-in, e.g. 45 degrees, while others perform best placed straight ahead with no toe-in. For want of a better description, mine sound best toed-in so that you can just slightly see the inner side of the speaker from the listening position.

[esldude]

20 minutes ago, Allan F said:

 

I believe that the angle of placement that most people choose is based on the speaker's on/off axis response in their listening room. Some speakers sound best with a lot of toe-in, e.g. 45 degrees, while others perform best placed straight ahead with no toe-in. For want of a better description, mine sound best toed-in so that you can just slightly see the inner side of the speaker from the listening position.

That is a separate issue from how you space them.  I'm not speaking of the angle at which they are faced.  But the angle at which they are spaced.  A well designed speaker should sound best aimed at the listener.  Isn't always the case. 

[STC]

Speakers spread determines the centre’s strength. 

[gmgraves]

4 hours ago, Paul R said:

 

Yeah, but that is exactly what that means in a lot of situations. Such as when talking about hi-fi gear.  ¯\(°_o)/¯

I think you mean that it’s what a large sample of audiophiles think that it means. But that does not make it so. If that’s what you mean, then I agree. That it really and literally means “a high degree of faithfulness to the original sound”, doesn’t alter the fact, that while it is a worthy goal, even the best cost-is-no-object system cannot even approach the ultimate goal of an audio system that sounds exactly like the original live event.

[fas42]

4 hours ago, STC said:

 

In those days, the dog howling in Amused to Death said to be like coming from my neighbour garden. An effect that I never perceived despite others perceived so in my own system. A simple Harbeth setup. This was about 10 years ago and that was when I realized I do not have the ability perceive an imaginary stage.

 

 

That explains why you put so much effort into generating the acoustic environments for recordings as you do - you need reinforcement of aural clues as compared to other people, to perceive a similar presentation.

 

It's well understood that people have differing reactions to sound cues; there's a whole area of medical research that investigates this aspect of human physiology.

[STC]

31 minutes ago, fas42 said:

It's well understood that people have differing reactions to sound cues;

 

Like not easily fooled by an illusion?  Try growing up in jungle swamped with snakes and monitor lizards. Accurate localization is everything to survive. Maybe, that’s what shaped my hearing sense.  

[PeterSt]

Are you the real Tarzan then ? 

[STC]

ahh maybe a mini adventure like Tarzan but with two old ladies.

 

You just just reminded me of the monkeys. Unfortunately, I don’t recall seeing one. 

[Paul R]

39 minutes ago, STC said:

 

Like not easily fooled by an illusion?  Try growing up in jungle swamped with snakes and monitor lizards. Accurate localization is everything to survive. Maybe, that’s what shaped my hearing sense.  

 

So? Growing up in Florida, you have snakes, really big lizards, more snakes in swamps, sharks, more snakes in trees , fire ants, more snakes in houses, jelly fish, barracudas, snakes in the lakes, man of war, bears, wild hogs, drug runners, serial killers, more snakes everywhere else, and most deadly of all, tourists. Even the snakes are afraid of the tourists... The rattlesnakes take a bite first and rattle later approach to tourists.

 

You learn to localize and keep an audible awareness of everything around you. And to shoot pretty well too.  Soundstage is easy in comparison.

[PeterSt]

3 minutes ago, Paul R said:

So? Growing up in Florida, you have snakes [...]

 

Come on now Paul, you have no jungle there. Only small swamps. Well, just don't go in there (or try the real ones which are a bit more towards the Mississippi. )

 

[Paul R]

4 hours ago, gmgraves said:

I think you mean that it’s what a large sample of audiophiles think that it means. But that does not make it so. If that’s what you mean, then I agree. That it really and literally means “a high degree of faithfulness to the original sound”, doesn’t alter the fact, that while it is a worthy goal, even the best cost-is-no-object system cannot even approach the ultimate goal of an audio system that sounds exactly like the original live event.

 

I am pulling your leg a bit George, because I think you are wrong, at least in part. Once radios and 78  players got past the point where they were referred to as having “good tone”,  the hardware was referred to as the Hi-Fi. In the 60s, people stopped playing music in the hi-fi and used the stereo. 

 

In in other words, Hi-Fi just referred to better sound, with no connotation of recorded orchestral works actually sounding like being there. Hi-fi records, on the covers refer to the reproduced sound being of high quality.

 

The “absolute sound” thing, along with the meaning you are giving it, came quite a bit later than the term hi-fi.

 

[Paul R]

14 minutes ago, PeterSt said:

 

Come on now Paul, you have no jungle there. Only small swamps. Well, just don't go in there (or try the real ones which are a bit more towards the Mississippi. )

 

 

(Grin) Ever hear of the Okeefenokee Swamp?  Or the Everglades?

 

And those are just the well known parks. A lot has gotten built up. Them Mississippi gators are babies, though we did see one old girl in downtown Daphne, AL last year! She was near on 12ft.  

 

 

 

 

 

[PeterSt]

5 minutes ago, Paul R said:

She was near on 12ft.

 

Maybe better just eat them then (lovely meat).

 

I had the Atchafalaya Basin (LA) in mind. The one which enters from the north by means of a 30 mile or so long bridge. Bayou area I'd say. Maybe the swamp you refer to is bigger. Maybe I am wrong all over. And no, I don't think we ever made it to the Everglades. By the time we had to turn South for that, we headed for Nascar county / north instead.

 

[Paul R]

30 minutes ago, PeterSt said:

 

Maybe better just eat them then (lovely meat).

 

I had the Atchafalaya Basin (LA) in mind. The one which enters from the north by means of a 30 mile or so long bridge. Bayou area I'd say. Maybe the swamp you refer to is bigger. Maybe I am wrong all over. And no, I don't think we ever made it to the Everglades. By the time we had to turn South for that, we headed for Nascar county / north instead.

 

 

You are right in that Atchafalaya is the largest swamp area around, but it is amazingly populated. There are people living all over that place. Something like 2100sq miles if I recall correctly, and the Cajun navy is there in force. Great place actually, and fantastic food!

 

Florida actually has more actual swamp area, and much more varied kinds of swamp areas, but they are all individually much smaller.  And Florida has great food to, but not as good as LA!.

 

Pretty much a joke though, as Florida has been experiencing a crazy building boom since the 60’s. A great deal of swampland is now actually built up. Think Disney world for instance.

 

Edit: You know, I just remembered I have some recordings of Florida swamps around somewhere. Made with an old Nakamichi

deck. Mostly bugs and birds, but got a wildcat mom yowling on it too. 

[STC]

1 hour ago, Paul R said:

So? Growing up in Florida, you have snakes, really big lizards, more snakes in swamps

 

It is always bigger and better over there.

 

But over here it was just a an insignificant affair in a tropical jungle far from civilization escaping  the worst racial riot and me too young to understand except to keep my mouth shut and watch for movements. The snakes were okay. Mostly cobras which would move away once they see you.  The monitor lizards were the horrible ones. They would approach you and most of them were twice my size. 

 

Keep your our eyes and ears open at all time. 

[PeterSt]

22 minutes ago, STC said:

It is always bigger and better over there.

 

I am sure Paul was making fun a little as everybody knows a jungle is different somewhat from a swamp. At least I think I know. In my view this is similar to living in the jungle vs not living in a swamp (never mind what Paul just said about the Bayou area is true just the same).

 

In the end I can't know a thing. I live close to Amsterdam. The most dangerous thing we can do over here is speeding.  if we go 1000 Km to the east we may run into a wild bear or two. That's about it.

[Summit]

16 hours ago, gmgraves said:

Unfortunately, it doesn’t mean accurate reproduction of the recording. If that’s what it meant, then an Edison cylinder player could be considered High-Fidelity!

 

High fidelity is kind of vague but mostly refer to the pre-recorded live sound while accuracy refers to the recording, which may or may not be an accurate representation of the original sound.

 

Read more at https://www.stereophile.com/content/sounds-audio-glossary-glossary#kIWfHoIKDwKvb8JR.99

[Rt66indierock]

5 hours ago, PeterSt said:

 

In the end I can't know a thing. I live close to Amsterdam. The most dangerous thing we can do over here is speeding.  if we go 1000 Km to the east we may run into a wild bear or two. That's about it.

 

I hope European bears territory is expanding as it is in North America. Imagine your country with a bear every four square kilometers like the state of Vermont.

[Paul R]

6 hours ago, STC said:

 

It is always bigger and better over there.

 

But over here it was just a an insignificant affair in a tropical jungle far from civilization escaping  the worst racial riot and me too young to understand except to keep my mouth shut and watch for movements. The snakes were okay. Mostly cobras which would move away once they see you.  The monitor lizards were the horrible ones. They would approach you and most of them were twice my size. 

 

Keep your our eyes and ears open at all time. 

 

That was humor, not picking on you.  Apologies if you took it any other way, but I did think you were making a joke. 

 

Where is “over here?”  

[Ralf11]

as the topic seems to have shifted a bit, I will offer some musical history:

 

in 1700s New Orleans, Creole gentlemen had to use their walking sticks to shoo the alligators away from the wooden banquets (sidewalks) so their ladies could make their way to the opera

 

also, when the Acadians showed up, expecting a warm welcome from their fellow French, they were not allowed to live in the city but were sent to the swamps -- when the Americans showed up (after having purchased the whole place), THEY were not allowed to live in the city either, but had to start their own 'ghetto' - today it is called the Garden District, and the medians on wide streets are still called the neutral grounds

 

I hope to meet all you boys on the battlefront...

[semente]

 

[Paul R]

1 hour ago, semente said:

 

 Nice find!  Thanks!  -Paul 

 

 

P.S. This is one of my very favorite links. I love to read the old articles, and muse a bit about how much hi-fi people have changed over the decades. Not! :) 

 

http://www.preservationsound.com/?tag=vintage-hi-fi

 

 

 

[semente]

55 minutes ago, Paul R said:

 

http://www.preservationsound.com/?tag=vintage-hi-fi

 

Thanks, I'll have a look.

 

This one is also worth watching:

 

 

[STC]

6 hours ago, Paul R said:

 

That was humor, not picking on you.  Apologies if you took it any other way, but I did think you were making a joke. 

 

Where is “over here?”  

 

No worries. We all become a jerk once in a while with this hobby and the anonymity of the internet.

 

Just somewhere along the way to the Forest Reserve of Malaysia. It was a dense jungle then now google is showing most of the part has been cleared and planted with palm trees.