DuckToller Posted October 20, 2021 Share Posted October 20, 2021 18 minutes ago, sphinxsix said: I didn't always think so, except for my late teens when I felt lots of sympathy for the idea of anarchosyndicalism Better late than NEVER only in the late teens ... Link to comment
Priaptor Posted October 20, 2021 Share Posted October 20, 2021 15 minutes ago, sphinxsix said: I must admit that I agree with the ones who say that the world needs not only environmental but also systemic change (I didn't always think so, except for my late teens when I felt lots of sympathy for the idea of anarchosyndicalism). A really good article, IMO: Think big on climate: the transformation of society in months has been done before I like to read all sides in order to frame my opinions and arguments. I find the Guardian not to be too credible but then again as you know I have a conservative slant to things. To compare the pernicious effects of climate change to the immediate assault of world order regarding Nazism and WWII is beyond absurd, even for the Guardian. Don't buy the comparison. Will refrain from the ever pervasive strawman argument always used on the NET. Jeff_N 1 Link to comment
sphinxsix Posted October 20, 2021 Share Posted October 20, 2021 3 hours ago, Priaptor said: To compare the pernicious effects of climate change to the immediate assault of world order regarding Nazism and WWII is beyond absurd, even for the Guardian That was my first thought while reading this as well. But let's think for a moment. In 1988 when James Hansen warned about the danger, the need to act wasn't that urgent yet, just like in 1989 when George Bush said: "Those who think we are powerless to do anything about the greenhouse effect forget about the 'White House effect'". Is it still not urgent nowadays.? Some scientists say we're past some tipping points and the consequences can be deadly serious. Are you sure they will not be as serious as the consequences of the WWII or even more.? Michael Oppenheimer who testified at the same 1988 hearing said: "I’m convinced we will deal with the problem, but not before there is an amount of suffering that is unconscionable and should’ve been avoided.”.... And now, after 30 years that the 'White House effect' has finally a chance to begin to exist in some way, it still encounters obstacles from people who, let's say 'have a conservative slant to things'. I must say frankly, I was really surprised to see you posting here, I somehow can't understand how a person clearly caring about environment and simply about the future can have political sympathies like that. Please don't take it too personally, it's simply slightly beyond my imagination and your eventual comment on that is more than welcome Link to comment
sphinxsix Posted October 20, 2021 Share Posted October 20, 2021 3 hours ago, DuckToller said: Better late than NEVER only in the late teens ... I do still have sympathy for the idea, looking for a little more realistic solutions nowadays, though, the world seems to be still a little too immature for anarchosyndycalism Link to comment
Priaptor Posted October 20, 2021 Share Posted October 20, 2021 1 hour ago, sphinxsix said: That was my first thought while reading this as well. But let's think for a moment. In 1988 when James Hansen warned about the danger, the need to act wasn't that urgent yet, just like in 1989 when George Bush said: "Those who think we are powerless to do anything about the greenhouse effect forget about the 'White House effect'". Is it still not urgent nowadays.? Some scientists say we're past some tipping points and the consequences can be deadly serious. Are you sure they will not be as serious as the consequences of the WWII or even more.? Michael Oppenheimer who testified at the same 1988 hearing said: "I’m convinced we will deal with the problem, but not before there is an amount of suffering that is unconscionable and should’ve been avoided.”.... And now, after 30 years that the 'White House effect' has finally a chance to begin to exist in some way, it still encounters obstacles from people who, let's say 'have a conservative slant to things'. I must say frankly, I was really surprised to see you posting here, I somehow can't understand how a person clearly caring about environment and simply about the future can have political sympathies like that. Please don't take it too personally, it's simply slightly beyond my imagination and your eventual comment on that is more than welcome It's funny you see that my conservative POV is inconsistent with caring about the environment. I truly shake my head at "liberals" who believe failed policies of taxing and over-regulation leads to good or can fix anything. In fact, many of the policies instituted under FDR (as listed in the Guardian) have done some of the greatest damage to our environment, income redistribution, healthcare and political system than just about any POTUS in history, but I digress. As a Conservative, the government picking winners and losers just doesn't jive with me. As a Conservative and NOT a Republican (as I think both parties are tainted by corporate $) with some appropriate (not stifling) regulations I think normal and competitive market forces will lead to a better and cleaner environment. A perfect example and by no means the only one, when egregious regulations and stifling taxes were applied to corporate America, how did they act? They moved to China where they basically have a license to pollute, license to abuse human rights as well as avoid taxes that are needed in their country of origin. Liberals like to impose restrictions and high taxes on their own people while allowing the biggest polluters to escape the same restrictions, as we witness in the Paris Accord. Of course corporate America who were screaming at the onset of this dislocation, have over the years embraced the lower costs and regulations but may regret those decisions as their oasis of escape of regulations, taxes and higher cost labor are going to be offset by countries like China "developing" leading to higher labor costs and of course what we are now seeing much higher transportation costs. I can't endorse knee jerk tax and spend policies with the promise that it will lead to a cleaner environment when there is no proof that any such thing will occur with some of the liberal policies. To the contrary their cure, as is often the case (as well as most DC elite), is worse than the disease. I understand people may feel good but little has or will happen with these policies and if we are really going to take climate change as seriously as you and The Guardian want, a real change in behavior MUST start by eliminating the dependence of the US, EU, etc on the biggest polluters in the world. That is a fundamental change that can occur much quicker and have much more impact than some of the quasi change of behavior suggested by the article you refer to. While I don't want to rehash the Solyndra debacle I think like any industry when competition is removed from the market place by government picking the winners adoption of technology not only slows to a halt but can often (as in our drilling) leading to devastating consequences. I am also not so naive as to think a world without regulations and oversight is "good" but as I always say (from my Conservative perch) is that where it begins is NEVER where it ends; I could literally point to just about every "liberal" policy and make examples. We now have endless number of regulatory bodies with literally no oversight totally violating the Delegation of Powers clause. There is so much special interest swaying policy that it is ludicrous and counterproductive. Our leaders in DC (and elsewhere) are pathetic and their obvious scorn for the lay people is despicable. If they have no regard to follow the policies, rules, regulations and laws either personally or locally, by state or nationally when they disagree with the political narrative then these laws are not only ineffective but the rule of law just breaks down. Again, Conservatism in the true sense has much in common with preserving the environment. I think the propaganda of those on left has a compelling message because it is easy to "feel" good about others paying the bill and the individual doing some simple things for the greater good but the real sacrifice required, few will really want to endure. Jeff_N 1 Link to comment
PYP Posted October 20, 2021 Share Posted October 20, 2021 7 hours ago, Priaptor said: I like to read all sides in order to frame my opinions and arguments. I find the Guardian not to be too credible but then again as you know I have a conservative slant to things. To compare the pernicious effects of climate change to the immediate assault of world order regarding Nazism and WWII is beyond absurd, even for the Guardian. Don't buy the comparison. Will refrain from the ever pervasive strawman argument always used on the NET. The overarching point is: "The difference between 1941 and 2021 is that now the mobilisation needs to come first. We need to build popular movements so big that governments have no choice but to respond to them, if they wish to remain in office. We need to make politicians understand that the survival of life on Earth is more important than their ideological commitment to limited government. Preventing Earth’s systems from flipping means flipping our political systems." And, while not wanting to compare anything to Nazism, it is clear that climate change will affect every human on the planet with a potential timeframe of forever. What do we compare that to? sphinxsix 1 Grimm Audio MU1 > Mola Mola Tambaqui > Mola Mola Kaluga > B&W 803 D3 Cables: Kubala-Sosna Power management: Shunyata Room: Vicoustics “Nature is pleased with simplicity.” Isaac Newton "As neither the enjoyment nor the capacity of producing musical notes are faculties of the least use to man...they must be ranked among the most mysterious with which he is endowed." Charles Darwin - The Descent of Man Link to comment
Priaptor Posted October 20, 2021 Share Posted October 20, 2021 20 minutes ago, PYP said: The overarching point is: "The difference between 1941 and 2021 is that now the mobilisation needs to come first. We need to build popular movements so big that governments have no choice but to respond to them, if they wish to remain in office. We need to make politicians understand that the survival of life on Earth is more important than their ideological commitment to limited government. Preventing Earth’s systems from flipping means flipping our political systems." And, while not wanting to compare anything to Nazism, it is clear that climate change will affect every human on the planet with a potential timeframe of forever. What do we compare that to? Do you really think any developed country or their governments are truly committed to climate change? As I have regurgitated over and over again on this thread, nothing even close compares to the CO2 and other pollutants being spewed into our planet's biggest polluters such as China, India, Indonesia and Viet Nam who we not only support by shipping our manufacturing to but are now literally dependent on them as this COVID crisis has proved. But what me worry, when I can save a few bucks on an iPhone and sleep well knowing that Apple claims to go "carbon neutral" by 2040. Or we can all pretend we are doing something by supporting clean energy and willing to pay carbon taxes or some other minuscule nonsense when the absolute root cause of the overwhelming pollution and CO2 emissions this planet NOW faces and is also the easiest to fix will not be addressed because the companies benefitting the most buy and pay for those leaders who claim they care. Time for people to unplug from The Matrix. I hear the propaganda being foisted and the usual talking points against what I say; USA per capita CO2, USA biggest polluter if you add all years since the industrial revolution, you don't want underdeveloped countries afforded the same benefit you have, it is impossible to untangle from China, on and on. If global warming and climate change represent the dire emergency that is claimed then there is no better bang for the buck and no faster way to reverse course than by incentivizing companies to manufacture in clean countries. Trust me, the cost of doing that will be much cheaper than the hair brained schemes under consideration where the biggest polluters are held to virtually no standards. Our governments are now controlled by corporations not the reverse. I am under no false illusion that our governments can or will change. The electorate are too ill informed and busy getting their info from cut and paste articles as their sources and so easily propagandized. Link to comment
PYP Posted October 21, 2021 Share Posted October 21, 2021 48 minutes ago, Priaptor said: there is no better bang for the buck and no faster way to reverse course than by incentivizing companies to manufacture in clean countries. Our governments are now controlled by corporations not the reverse. Agreed, but I also believe we need to simultaneously try many different ways/strategies to "solve" the problem, and in doing so there will inevitably be wasted money (some private, some public). That is a given, even if we don't like it. Often, markets aren't efficient. We need to stop thinking in political terms and begin by talking about policies. sphinxsix 1 Grimm Audio MU1 > Mola Mola Tambaqui > Mola Mola Kaluga > B&W 803 D3 Cables: Kubala-Sosna Power management: Shunyata Room: Vicoustics “Nature is pleased with simplicity.” Isaac Newton "As neither the enjoyment nor the capacity of producing musical notes are faculties of the least use to man...they must be ranked among the most mysterious with which he is endowed." Charles Darwin - The Descent of Man Link to comment
Priaptor Posted October 21, 2021 Share Posted October 21, 2021 57 minutes ago, PYP said: Agreed, but I also believe we need to simultaneously try many different ways/strategies to "solve" the problem, and in doing so there will inevitably be wasted money (some private, some public). That is a given, even if we don't like it. Often, markets aren't efficient. We need to stop thinking in political terms and begin by talking about policies. When evaluating a machine or a business for that matter, the best method to enhance either, is to analyze with MTF methodologies and go after the least efficient part of either. To put anything ahead of dismantling the current biggest problem, namely shipping most manufacturing to the biggest polluters in the world would be analogous to attacking your MTF analysis by going after the most efficient part of a machine or business to improve either. Makes no sense. . Link to comment
PYP Posted October 21, 2021 Share Posted October 21, 2021 52 minutes ago, Priaptor said: When evaluating a machine or a business for that matter, the best method to enhance either, is to analyze with MTF methodologies and go after the least efficient part of either. To put anything ahead of dismantling the current biggest problem, namely shipping most manufacturing to the biggest polluters in the world would be analogous to attacking your MTF analysis by going after the most efficient part of a machine or business to improve either. Makes no sense. . well, I guess we will disagree on this point. I think moving operations from China is not easy (let's just consider the precision manufacturing, person power and supply linkages needed to manufacture an iPhone, for example). Both companies and governments, utilizing different means and methods, will need to put pressure/give incentives to China. That is just my personal opinion as someone who is not an expert in this field. In addition, there is much the rest of the world, including the US, needs to do now, and some seem willing. And technological advancements need to be pursued worldwide. Grimm Audio MU1 > Mola Mola Tambaqui > Mola Mola Kaluga > B&W 803 D3 Cables: Kubala-Sosna Power management: Shunyata Room: Vicoustics “Nature is pleased with simplicity.” Isaac Newton "As neither the enjoyment nor the capacity of producing musical notes are faculties of the least use to man...they must be ranked among the most mysterious with which he is endowed." Charles Darwin - The Descent of Man Link to comment
Priaptor Posted October 21, 2021 Share Posted October 21, 2021 57 minutes ago, PYP said: well, I guess we will disagree on this point. I think moving operations from China is not easy (let's just consider the precision manufacturing, person power and supply linkages needed to manufacture an iPhone, for example). Both companies and governments, utilizing different means and methods, will need to put pressure/give incentives to China. That is just my personal opinion as someone who is not an expert in this field. In addition, there is much the rest of the world, including the US, needs to do now, and some seem willing. And technological advancements need to be pursued worldwide. If the incentives were provided Apple would move their operations tomorrow. The empowerment of China as well as other polluters has basically happened overnight in the scheme of things, since the mid to late 90s, and would take much less time to dismantle than the current half baked ideas being put forward for implementation of “clean energy” that would have far less of an effect than dismantling the current polluters. There is no incentive for China to change anything. In fact we just had proof during their energy shortage in how they responded. More coal just as India, Viet Nam and Indonesia approaches their fuel supplies to meet manufacturing demands. They love to play the propaganda game and many in the US and EU bend over backwards to appease and believe them yet no one will hold them accountable. Link to comment
sphinxsix Posted October 21, 2021 Share Posted October 21, 2021 @Priaptor There are IMO so many things that are not correct in your above posts that I'm afraid of replying to them in particular since like I said I can't spend so much time here nowadays. But I'll try. And I'll try to keep it short. On 10/20/2021 at 11:14 PM, Priaptor said: I truly shake my head at "liberals" who believe failed policies of taxing and over-regulation leads to good or can fix anything. The Netherlands where I've been living for the last 4 years: -relatively high taxes -lots of regulations in many fields eg highly regulated housing market -very developed social system - if you don't make an average 3k euro, you get allowances eg housing allowance (often 50% of the rent and I must add that social housing in big cities often counts for more than 50% of all houses/apartments), health insurance (obligatory in the NL) allowance - up to 80% and in such case you pay for it 20e per month), child allowances etc. -one of the lowest poverty levels in the world (top 3, I believe) -one of the highest levels of people's 'happiness' (top 5) -very high level of medical care (also top 5 in the world) -in addition pension system no 1 in the world for more than decade (last year Iceland has taken the 1st place in most rankings) -healthy IMO tendency to legalize things which cannot be actually erased from social life - eg soft drugs, prostitution (no hundreds of thousands 'one joint' prisoners like in some countries, insurance and pension for sex workers as they are called here) Apologies for some mess in this post but I really have to be in a hurry. On 10/20/2021 at 11:14 PM, Priaptor said: I think normal and competitive market forces will lead to a better and cleaner environment. Are you serious? Do you belive in that? 'Normal and competitive'have been working for decades and what we've got.? Free market and capitalism are based on greed - love of money, not love of nature, c'mon.. On 10/20/2021 at 11:14 PM, Priaptor said: A perfect example and by no means the only one, when egregious regulations and stifling taxes were applied to corporate America, how did they act? It was not only America but the whole world and definitely not necessarily after facing tax increases. Even East European companies moved their production to China at some point cause it was simply cheaper. On 10/20/2021 at 11:14 PM, Priaptor said: a real change in behavior MUST start by eliminating the dependence of the US, EU, etc on the biggest polluters in the world. Let's call things by their names - you've just named 3 biggest polluters in the world. Actually as for greenhouse gases emissions per capita, the US is the biggest one before Russia. (All charts by International Energy Agency, 2021 https://www.c2es.org/content/international-emissions/) Anyway like I already said here earlier countries like Russia, China, Brazil may be a problem. Hope the opposition and a couple of stubborn Democrats will allow Biden to do something otherwise also US may be a problem, actually due to its meaning and international position and influence I'd say (sorry for that) - the biggest one.. On 10/20/2021 at 11:14 PM, Priaptor said: I think the propaganda of those on left has a compelling message because it is easy to "feel" good about others paying the bill and the individual doing some simple things for the greater good but the real sacrifice required, few will really want to endure. The problem starts when the ones who should pay the highest bills (taxes) pay the smallest ones or none at all.. As for being ready for real sacrifice - I agree this may be hard for many but I think this might be exactly what needs to be done. Also in the 1st world 3rd world relation. We are after all rich also in connection with exploiting them, if I may allow myself call things by their name again and here also eg the Netherlands isn't a completely innocent historically country but at least they make lots of things easier now for people from Surinam (I'd still personally prefer Manhattan to be Dutch to Surinam ;-)), Indonesia etc. 23 hours ago, Priaptor said: Do you really think any developed country or their governments are truly committed to climate change? Some of them simply have to - I posted the information about the case lost by the Dutch government in which the court had obliged in quite concrete way the government to do more as far as environmental matters are regarded (check out earlier posts). Courts in other countries followed the example. You can Google it.. 23 hours ago, Priaptor said: As I have regurgitated over and over again on this thread, nothing even close compares to the CO2 and other pollutants being spewed into our planet's biggest polluters such as China, India, Indonesia and Viet Nam Let's stick to the facts. Look at the charts above. 23 hours ago, Priaptor said: If global warming and climate change represent the dire emergency that is claimed.. Do they in your opinion after all.? 23 hours ago, Priaptor said: ..then there is no better bang for the buck and no faster way to reverse course than by incentivizing companies to manufacture in clean countries. The whole problem is that according to science ALL countries must be pretty SOON CLEAN. Otherwise we and our kids are screwed.. Not even mentioning fauna.. Even most kids understand that as you probably know. :-) 21 hours ago, Priaptor said: the current biggest problem, namely shipping most manufacturing to the biggest polluters in the world I think you overestimate the weight of this problem. I really don't think it's the no 1 problem taking into account how much greenhouse gases are emitted in these countries or G20 in general in the process of their own production, transportation, agricultural etc processes. 19 hours ago, Priaptor said: The empowerment of China as well as other polluters You repeat this so often that this begins to sound to me like some your very personal problem with the People's Rpublic of China.. ;-) BTW look - their economy, one of the fastest developing ones in the world in recent decades is a highly regulated and planned one.. ;-) But seriously, I will only repeat once again - IMO we (unfortunately) must do much more than what you suggest and I'm afraid that "dismantling" China's power would not be even close to enough as far as solving the problem WE have is regarded. Link to comment
PYP Posted October 22, 2021 Share Posted October 22, 2021 1 hour ago, sphinxsix said: Actually as for greenhouse gases emissions per capita, the US is the biggest one before Russia. (All charts by International Energy Agency, 2021 https://www.c2es.org/content/international-emissions/) Thanks for a perspective outside of the U.S. Seems clear that Biden's plan will be reduced. It will be a down payment when we really need to do much more than that right now. While strategic thinking and action are needed, we are stuck in reductionist political thinking and posturing. The per capita graph above is very informative. I didn't realize Japan was #3. sphinxsix 1 Grimm Audio MU1 > Mola Mola Tambaqui > Mola Mola Kaluga > B&W 803 D3 Cables: Kubala-Sosna Power management: Shunyata Room: Vicoustics “Nature is pleased with simplicity.” Isaac Newton "As neither the enjoyment nor the capacity of producing musical notes are faculties of the least use to man...they must be ranked among the most mysterious with which he is endowed." Charles Darwin - The Descent of Man Link to comment
Popular Post Jeff_N Posted October 22, 2021 Popular Post Share Posted October 22, 2021 Biden killed the Keystone pipeline and basked in the glow of progressive approval. Then he and Jake Sullivan went whining to OPEC and Russia, begging them to boost oil output, because gas prices are going up and that'll hurt Democrats in upcoming elections. That should tell you how seriously they take climate change. Priaptor and sphinxsix 1 1 Link to comment
Priaptor Posted October 22, 2021 Share Posted October 22, 2021 1 hour ago, sphinxsix said: @Priaptor There are IMO so many things that are not correct in your above posts that I'm afraid of replying to them in particular since like I said I can't spend so much time here nowadays. But I'll try. And I'll try to keep it short. The Netherlands where I've been living for the last 4 years: -relatively high taxes -lots of regulations in many fields eg highly regulated housing market -very developed social system - if you don't make an average 3k euro, you get allowances eg housing allowance (often 50% of the rent and I must add that social housing in big cities often counts for more than 50% of all houses/apartments), health insurance (obligatory in the NL) allowance - up to 80% and in such case you pay for it 20e per month), child allowances etc. -one of the lowest poverty levels in the world (top 3, I believe) -one of the highest levels of people's 'happiness' (top 5) -very high level of medical care (also top 5 in the world) -in addition pension system no 1 in the world for more than decade (last year Iceland has taken the 1st place in most rankings) -healthy IMO tendency to legalize things which cannot be actually erased from social life - eg soft drugs, prostitution (no hundreds of thousands 'one joint' prisoners like in some countries, insurance and pension for sex workers as they are called here) Apologies for some mess in this post but I really have to be in a hurry. Are you serious? Do you belive in that? 'Normal and competitive'have been working for decades and what we've got.? Free market and capitalism are based on greed - love of money, not love of nature, c'mon.. It was not only America but the whole world and definitely not necessarily after facing tax increases. Even East European companies moved their production to China at some point cause it was simply cheaper. Let's call things by their names - you've just named 3 biggest polluters in the world. Actually as for greenhouse gases emissions per capita, the US is the biggest one before Russia. (All charts by International Energy Agency, 2021 https://www.c2es.org/content/international-emissions/) Anyway like I already said here earlier countries like Russia, China, Brazil may be a problem. Hope the opposition and a couple of stubborn Democrats will allow Biden to do something otherwise also US may be a problem, actually due to its meaning and international position and influence I'd say (sorry for that) - the biggest one.. The problem starts when the ones who should pay the highest bills (taxes) pay the smallest ones or none at all.. As for being ready for real sacrifice - I agree this may be hard for many but I think this might be exactly what needs to be done. Also in the 1st world 3rd world relation. We are after all rich also in connection with exploiting them, if I may allow myself call things by their name again and here also eg the Netherlands isn't a completely innocent historically country but at least they make lots of things easier now for people from Surinam (I'd still personally prefer Manhattan to be Dutch to Surinam ;-)), Indonesia etc. Some of them simply have to - I posted the information about the case lost by the Dutch government in which the court had obliged in quite concrete way the government to do more as far as environmental matters are regarded (check out earlier posts). Courts in other countries followed the example. You can Google it.. Let's stick to the facts. Look at the charts above. Do they in your opinion after all.? The whole problem is that according to science ALL countries must be pretty SOON CLEAN. Otherwise we and our kids are screwed.. Not even mentioning fauna.. Even most kids understand that as you probably know. :-) I think you overestimate the weight of this problem. I really don't think it's the no 1 problem taking into account how much greenhouse gases are emitted in these countries or G20 in general in the process of their own production, transportation, agricultural etc processes. You repeat this so often that this begins to sound to me like some your very personal problem with the People's Rpublic of China.. ;-) BTW look - their economy, one of the fastest developing ones in the world in recent decades is a highly regulated and planned one.. ;-) But seriously, I will only repeat once again - IMO we (unfortunately) must do much more than what you suggest and I'm afraid that "dismantling" China's power would not be even close to enough as far as solving the problem WE have is regarded. When all else fails, go with the parsing of stats such as "per capita". I actually used this example in my copy and paste examples. Here in America, we are #72 on population density because of our geographical disparity and why transportation makes up so much of our emissions. Yeah it would be nice to have one of the highest population densities such as the Netherlands, ranked # 5 where mass transit, walking and cycling to everything works. I don't think that would work here in the US. However, as I will illustrate our carbon footprint is decreasing as fast as anyone and our manufacturing index, while literally the same as China spews but a fraction of crap that China does. By the way, can we define "clean energy" as that really should be the first step to any debate. I have my own facts and figures as to what that really means but I will follow the lead on this. Hey, great about the Netherlands. I love the analogy by those here in the states to the Netherlands, etc. and why we can't WE be like them. When the US is a predominately tiny homogenous country of 17 million instead of the melting pot of 350 million of all socioeconomic, ethnic, racial and religious sects with the geographical disparity we have maybe we could be as good as Denmark, Sweden, Netherlands, etc. Please don't show me the "diversity" of the Netherlands as that diversity is split among a tiny % of the country. When you pose the demographic disparity between the US and those homogenous countries liberal Americans love to endorse of course they have no rebuttal. Despite our crappy unhappy populace few places have more people wanting to move to this land of opportunity. We can debate the benefits of the Netherlands v. the USA another time but it is literally comparing apples to oranges as the phrase goes. As to the biggest polluters, I stand by my claim when looking at the dynamic and not static view. China has increased greenhouse emissions 3x in the same time the USA has reduced emissions down to mid 1980s levels. The EU is similarly decreasing emissions but at a much faster rate than the US mainly because they have almost no manufacturing. India, Viet Nam and Indonesia are exponentially increasing their emissions on a yearly basis with no abatement in sight and with no regulations in site. Most of their massive spewing of garbage into the atmosphere has come and is increasingly coming from their manufacturing. The absolute mind boggling stat is that CA, the state so supposedly consciously about green house gases and pollution have the vast number of companies priming China (and other Asian) pollution pumps that NOW makes up the majority of California's pollution. You literally can't make this up but what me worry, I drive a Tesla and installed a solar panel (of course made in China with their deleterious ecological mining). As to capitalism, the alternative is what? Russia, China, North Korea? Plus you took me out of context. Of course unregulated capitalism will run awry because man, as we know, can't be trusted to their own instincts and greed. Hence, why I said with regulations, just not the regulations you want, which is government overreach by agencies with decries with no oversight giving in to the special interests that have the largest open wallet. Incidentally, that has been spawned since the good ole days of FDR. Estimated deaths from pollution in China, 1.6 million per year. Hanoi has the worst pollution of any city in the world and pollution is now one of their leading causes of death. India has indicated they WILL use coal for their growth and nothing is stopping that. As I said, static graph mean nothing, velocity graphs tell the real story. Viet Nam has doubled their CO2 emissions and quadrupled their particulate emissions 4x from 2012 to 2019. The leftist are singing the praise of China because after a 3x increase in emissions in 20 years their curve flattened BUT the Atlantic and others fail to tell you a little something happened in that flattening, namely COVID, and now that production is moving beyond pre-COVID levels, China now faces fuel shortages, being filled with as much coal as they can get and happily their emissions are once again back on track to increase as fast as ever. If you like, I could copy and paste showing the massive growth of pollution and CO2 emissions from China, Indonesia, Viet Nam and India to match your static charts and show the projected levels by the year 2030. Now that is what matters. Yes CCP are bad actors. I make no apologies for my concerns about the CCP, their intentions, their actions, their lies and duplicity. They back the Taliban, they back Iran, they violate human rights, they censor, they jail dissenters, they abuse their power, they threaten Taiwan, they haven't kept their word about Hong Kong, they are the worlds biggest technology fiend (even more than Russia), they manipulate markets and so much more. I repeat, nothing would make a bigger difference to stemming greenhouse gas and pollution concerns faster or more effectively than moving manufacturing out of the places I listed. I posed a question in regard to the Guardian article you quoted. The changing of behavior that drastically occurred regarding WWII would be analogous to moving our manufacturing out of those dirty countries. That is real change of behavior. You willing? Link to comment
sphinxsix Posted October 22, 2021 Share Posted October 22, 2021 14 hours ago, sphinxsix said: Hope the opposition and a couple of stubborn Democrats will allow Biden to do something Has Joe Biden lost his climate credibility? (probably some obvious things for those who are interested in the whole thing) Meanwhile Cop 26 is getting closer with each day. A turning point or more politicians 'blah, blah, blah' and as it's been up to now.? Cop26 Glasgow - news: Greenpeace chief warns of climate summit ‘greenwashing’ amid fears over foreign aid cuts Link to comment
Priaptor Posted October 22, 2021 Share Posted October 22, 2021 21 minutes ago, sphinxsix said: Has Joe Biden lost his climate credibility? (probably some obvious things for those who are interested in the whole thing) Meanwhile Cop 26 is getting closer with each day. A turning point or more politicians 'blah, blah, blah' and as it's been up to now.? Cop26 Glasgow - news: Greenpeace chief warns of climate summit ‘greenwashing’ amid fears over foreign aid cuts Thanks for the Cop26. I think the thread shows two things, #1 just how disjointed this movement is with no legitimate path forward and #2 how China is the tail wagging the dog, the biggest polluter, who isn't showing any real interest. As to Joe Biden losing climate credibility, I don't think he ever had any, at least to us Conservatives. His administrative policies are based on politics feeding the propaganda machine rather than what it really takes. Link to comment
Priaptor Posted October 22, 2021 Share Posted October 22, 2021 2 hours ago, Jeff_N said: Biden killed the Keystone pipeline and basked in the glow of progressive approval. Then he and Jake Sullivan went whining to OPEC and Russia, begging them to boost oil output, because gas prices are going up and that'll hurt Democrats in upcoming elections. That should tell you how seriously they take climate change. 2021 was a great year for coal production. Just don't expect the same next year : NPR You can't make this up. Of course, no one will blame the Biden administration or any other absurd policy makers in DC that have led to this. So he killed pipelines, has literally been responsible for run away gas and oil prices and to meet the world's energy demands, the response? Coal. LMAO. Another example of where it begins is NEVER where it ends. Link to comment
semente Posted October 22, 2021 Author Share Posted October 22, 2021 Haven't listened to this podcast yet but the summary is depressing enough... Manchin thwarts Biden’s climate plan: Politics Weekly Extra As Joe Biden gears up for his trip to Glasgow for the Cop26 summit, Senator Joe Manchin continues to try to water down the reconciliation bill, which as it stands includes transformational provisions to stem the adverse affects of the climate crisis. Joan Greve and Oliver Milman look at the potential fallout for the world if Manchin gets his way https://www.theguardian.com/politics/audio/2021/oct/22/manchin-thwarts-bidens-climate-plan-politics-weekly-extra "Science draws the wave, poetry fills it with water" Teixeira de Pascoaes HQPlayer Desktop / Mac mini → Intona 7054 → RME ADI-2 DAC FS (DSD256) Link to comment
PYP Posted October 22, 2021 Share Posted October 22, 2021 Climate is officially a financial risk A panel of America’s top financial regulators issued a report yesterday finding that climate change was an “emerging threat” to financial markets. That sets the stage for the Biden administration to take more aggressive efforts to prevent climate change from upending the global economy. The determination came from the Financial Stability Oversight Council, which was established after the financial crisis to identify threats to the U.S. financial system. Among its findings: A recommendation to form a risk committee focused on climate change, with a specific focus on the insurance sector. An acknowledgment that climate disproportionately affects lower-income neighborhoods and communities of color because they often have fewer resources. Support for the development of rules that would require companies to disclose the potential effects of climate change on their operations. But the report was less forceful than many climate activists had hoped.Some of what was missing: A recommendation that banks should hold more capital to withstand climate-related losses. Curbs on extending financing to fossil fuel companies. Specific timelines on which regulators should act on the recommendations it did make. The council’s report comes days before a crucial international climate summit. At the COP26 meeting, the Biden administration wants to paint the U.S. as a leader on climate change. But climate advocates rued what Ben Cushing of the Sierra Club’s Fossil-Free Finance campaign said was a “missed opportunity” to make substantive change. Grimm Audio MU1 > Mola Mola Tambaqui > Mola Mola Kaluga > B&W 803 D3 Cables: Kubala-Sosna Power management: Shunyata Room: Vicoustics “Nature is pleased with simplicity.” Isaac Newton "As neither the enjoyment nor the capacity of producing musical notes are faculties of the least use to man...they must be ranked among the most mysterious with which he is endowed." Charles Darwin - The Descent of Man Link to comment
sphinxsix Posted October 22, 2021 Share Posted October 22, 2021 9 hours ago, Jeff_N said: Biden killed the Keystone pipeline and basked in the glow of progressive approval. Then he and Jake Sullivan went whining to OPEC and Russia, begging them to boost oil output, because gas prices are going up and that'll hurt Democrats in upcoming elections. That should tell you how seriously they take climate change. Seems that in only 3 years you guys will have a chance to choose the guy who knows everything about environmental problems, who already has done a lot for errr.. sorry.. to environment and who's in addition a fantastic poet (also an expert in the field of medicine and hundreds and hundreds and hundreds of other ones, it's a very long list).. Or maybe one of his supporters..(?) Link to comment
sphinxsix Posted October 22, 2021 Share Posted October 22, 2021 9 hours ago, Priaptor said: We can debate the benefits of the Netherlands v. the USA another time but it is literally comparing apples to oranges as the phrase goes. I wasn't comparing the NL to the USA, I just wanted to show you how miserable country with high taxes, developed social system and broad state control in many fields can be (there are of course more miserable countries like that - eg Sweden, Norway, Iceland or Denmark, full of unhappy people who are not even allowed to own a gun, and guess what.. I must admit I'm to some degree a fan of such social democratic model, at the same time, guess what again.. I think and hope we can do better). But there is actually one field where the NL can be compared to the US. This country with population only slightly (and also area) bigger than NYC is the second biggest exporter of food and agricultural goods in the world after the US with only 3% of people working in the agriculture. In addition its pension funds have gathered the amount of money equal half of the rest of Europe's funds. I hope I have shown clearly enough now how miserably end the countries which use diametrically different political and economic model from the one you support.. Will you try to convince me.? If so, I wish you good luck.. AFAIK you care for environmental stuff.. How would you compare the attitude of towards the environmental problems in the above mentioned miserable countries with what your candidate for president in recent elections did.? Again - good luck with your answer.. Link to comment
Priaptor Posted October 22, 2021 Share Posted October 22, 2021 6 minutes ago, sphinxsix said: I wasn't comparing the NL to the USA, I just wanted to show you how miserable country with high taxes, developed social system and broad state control in many fields can be (there are of course more miserable countries like that - eg Sweden, Norway, Iceland or Denmark, full of unhappy people who are not even allowed to own a gun, and guess what.. I must admit I'm to some degree a fan of such social democratic model, at the same time, guess what again.. I think and hope we can do better). But there is actually one field where the NL can be compared to the US. This country with population only slightly (and also area) bigger than NYC is the second biggest exporter of food and agricultural goods in the world after the US with only 3% of people working in the agriculture. In addition its pension funds have gathered the amount of money equal half of the rest of Europe's funds. I hope I have shown clearly enough now how miserably end the countries which use diametrically different political and economic model from the one you support.. Will you try to convince me.? If so, I wish you good luck.. Trust me, I get why the Netherlands, Denmark, Sweden, etc. work the way they do and even why they "enjoy" their high taxes. Surprisingly, the location in America you chose to compare to, namely NYC, has taxes higher than the Netherlands. Between Medicare, Social Security, City, State and Fed taxes 60+% taxes are not uncommon. The big difference is that those paying the most get very little in return while those paying the least get the most in giveaways with little accountability other than "continue voting for me and I will continue to give you". Meanwhile the income redistribution as determined by politicians and the taxes they impose do little to improve the life of the downtrodden. In fact, I would take it to a different level and state that the politicos of this country buying the votes of lower socioeconomic strata make sure to keep the dependent further dependent to ensure their vote. Maybe one day they will wake up but I am not holding my breath. Link to comment
sphinxsix Posted October 22, 2021 Share Posted October 22, 2021 @Priaptor Sorry we definitely will not find common language. Link to comment
Priaptor Posted October 22, 2021 Share Posted October 22, 2021 1 minute ago, sphinxsix said: @Priaptor Sorry we definitely will not find the common language. Yeah, I get it trust me. Iving 1 Link to comment
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