The Environmental thread + Conventional (HI-FI) wisdom is almost always invariably wrong

[elcorso]

2 hours ago, sandyk said:

 

 That is far from my experience, and also that of quite a few DIY Audio members who found that with the almost perfectly measuring amplifier designs from renowned Audio designer Douglas Self, that the sound mainly came from directly between the speakers, but didn't extend past the other sides of them. OR come from behind them.

 

Hi Alex,

 

This is not more related to recording techniques than amplifier & speaker design ?

 

Best,

 

Roch

[sandyk]

22 minutes ago, elcorso said:

 

Hi Alex,

 

This is not more related to recording techniques than amplifier & speaker design ?

 

Best,

 

Roch

 Hi Roch

 It can be, but usually the sound should be directly between the front of the drivers of both stereo speakers unless the phase is manipulated at the recording stage. Manipulating Phase can give all kinds of unusual effects, such as with the Olivia Netwton John track " Moth to a Flame" where a simulated moth should be heard doing an anti clockwise circular sweep extending both behind the speakers and behind the listening position if the size of the room is suitable., and your speakers and electronics are good enough. 

 If the room isn't wide enough the sweep will usually sound more like an ellipse with the depth longer than the width.

 

Kind Regards

Alex

 

P.S.

Do you have this track ?

[STC]

Room size got nothing to do with the effect. All positional information of instruments is decoded by our brain by HRTF. All sound -be it natural or artificial - is  perceived and decoded the same way. If room size determines the effect, then headphones would not able to produce Newton's Moth of Flame effect. In stereo, height and rear sound are more of imagination than illusion.

[STC]

10 hours ago, JanRSmit said:

To my knowlegde it is an illusion in the sense that, based on the sounds as received by our hearing constructs it into a soundstage in your brain. Our ability to hear left- right is obvious. Our hearing of depth is a bit more difficult as our intrinsic ability to objectivily determine a distance is limited. However with additional info such as real life experiences like visits to a concert hall, our brain is basically performing an additional depth "guestimation" .

 

 

 

 

 

You and your doctor have far better understanding how stereo/hearing work than what you can find in forums. Until one really understand the principles, there will be no real improvement in high fidelity. 

[STC]

3 hours ago, jhwalker said:

I can't see 3D, ...

 

 

You are not alone. That was one of the main reason why 3D TV failed.  https://www.nbcnews.com/health/body-odd/why-some-including-johnny-depp-cant-see-3d-f1C6437360

 

I too cannot visualize sound beyond the walls of my room despite others claiming so. I think it just how we learned localization since young. I suppose those who spend more time in nature localize stereo sound differently.

[sandyk]

33 minutes ago, STC said:

Room size got nothing to do with the effect. All positional information of instruments is decoded by our brain by HRTF. All sound -be it natural or artificial - is  perceived and decoded the same way. If room size determines the effect, then headphones would not able to produce Newton's Moth of Flame effect. In stereo, height and rear sound are more of imagination than illusion.

 You are completely out of touch with reality !

 It also has to do with the amount of space behind the listening position among other things, the type of surface behind the listening position, and  including the distance between the speakers,  which will often be governed by the actual room width, and will not always be enough for optimum stereo performance, as well as how far out they are from the rear wall, which will also govern LF performance in many cases.

 

 e.g.

Attached is a positioning recommendation from the manufacturer of the DCM QED Transmission Line speakers

[STC]

That doesn’t answer how headphones work to reproduce the same effect. Where is the required space for the headphones?

[sandyk]

We weren't discussing headphones in this instance, (or at least I wasn't) and with the CD track that I previously mentioned I hear a fairly similar, but not quite as good presentation via my DIY Class A Headphone amplifier when using ATH M70x headphones.

It falls down a little in the area of sound behind my head though.

[STC]

Be it headphones or loudspeaker the effect is heard. In small room the effect may not materialize if the reflection from the wall is high enough to alter the intended phase /level for the respective ear. 

[Paul R]

7 hours ago, crenca said:

 

I do perceive soundstage in the sense of depth, small assembly placement too and fro, etc.  on some recordings, occasionally. That is, I perceive it a bit.  I also am able to squash the illusion with a bit of analytical attention.  Also, I think it is way overrated.  It's nice, but boy, some folks make so much of it and I have never gotten this.  

 

In personal audio the "headstage" is much talked about.  It's always "between the ears" too me and again I get it a bit, I just don't rate it.  

 

What I really don't get is when folks who mostly listen to modern pop/rock/studio creations and who focus on soundstage.  It's one thing to talk seek a soundstage for real acoustic music played in real acoustic space, but music that is the creation of studio mix boards and computers ???

 

Oh yeah - it can be a real head trip, without all the issues of using recreational substances. Atom Heart Mother from Pink Floyd for instance. 

 

[Paul R]

7 hours ago, fas42 said:

 

Ummm, the soundstage is always behind the speakers - that is, it starts at the vertical plane where the speakers are located, and exists back from that. Every recording I have meets this criterion when the rig is working at a good level - I'll ignore the "silly" efforts where phase is deliberately manipulated to make things fly around the room, etc.

 

Mono recordings most certainly convey depth; recordings over a 100 years old make it quite easy to judge how far back a particular instrument is, say.

Um no- the soundstage is usually a flat plane between the speakers, and with apologies to Peter, always illusory as well. The speakers are not projecting the sounds of specific instruments to those locations. 

 

Depending upon the configuration and listening position, the soundstage can be very forward, which is actually rather cool too. 

 

So, a little later in the thread, someone asked if headphones can sound just like a room full of speakers. The answer to that is of course, yes. Skywalker Sound has been doing that for years. The same kind of technology has tricked down into the common world already, with perhaps one of the better examples being the Smyth Research A16 Realizer.

 

The reason, of course, being that headphones make it much simpler to tailor response, as the "room" response is perfectly measured and known. The only variable is the user's hearing, and that is even easily measured and put into the calculations. You can pretty much have as many "virtual" speakers in a headphone setup as you wish. 

 

 

[fas42]

1 hour ago, Paul R said:

Um no- the soundstage is usually a flat plane between the speakers, and with apologies to Peter, always illusory as well. The speakers are not projecting the sounds of specific instruments to those locations. 

 

Depending upon the configuration and listening position, the soundstage can be very forward, which is actually rather cool too.

 

 

The sounds of specific sound elements are not projected to various locations; rather, all the auditory cues add up sufficiently that the brain decides that the sound of whatever is actually coming from "over there"; and not from the speakers. One day you might experience this from a stereo setup, and will be amazed at how powerful the illusion is - just as amazed as I was when I first had it happen to me.

 

If the soundstage is very "forward" then IME this is all about the distortion being such that all sense of depth is lost; loudness is translated by the brain as meaning the sound is closer, because the other cues telling otherwise are too poorly reproduced.

[Paul R]

41 minutes ago, fas42 said:

 

The sounds of specific sound elements are not projected to various locations; rather, all the auditory cues add up sufficiently that the brain decides that the sound of whatever is actually coming from "over there"; and not from the speakers. One day you might experience this from a stereo setup, and will be amazed at how powerful the illusion is - just as amazed as I was when I first had it happen to me.

 

If the soundstage is very "forward" then IME this is all about the distortion being such that all sense of depth is lost; loudness is translated by the brain as meaning the sound is closer, because the other cues telling otherwise are too poorly reproduced.

 

We definitely disagree in a lot of areas here. As I hear and love soundstage stuff more than just about any other aspect of our hobby, it is rather amusing to see you suggesting I will experience it one day. 🤪

 

As it happens, I remember exactly  when I first heard soundstage from a stereo system. It was in the 70’s,  a FM broadcast of Jeff Wayne’s WoTWs, around 2 am in the morning. I had dropped something, and as I reached over the bed to retrieve it, I suddenly hit the very small sweet spot. Amazement, understanding, and great joy. Sold on it  ever since. 

 

A really good soundstage can extend quite a distance into the room, and can present almost tangible images. Much more depth, and height information. Has nothing to do with distortion. It is a myth that a soundstage is only good or accurate if it appears behind the speakers. IMHO, YMMV, etc. 

[STC]

... without contrasting sound with level and HF difference depth cannot be perceived in a recording.   Depth like height is formed based on prior knowledge. 

 

A good example would be to use a choral made of children and adults. Some might perceive the adults to be forward while others would say the children are in front. 

 

 

[sandyk]

1 hour ago, STC said:

depth cannot be perceived in a recording.   Depth like height is formed based on prior knowledge. 

Rubbish !

You  must have a very ordinary sounding  system.

" The Storm" from "Dr . Chesky's 5.1 Surround Show " , even when down converted to stereo can give a frighteningly real sensation of height, and even make you jump involuntarily, through a better than average system such as with big Nelson Pass Class A monoblocks.

It still gives a sensation of height through a high quality headphone amplifier and better than average headphones such as AT W1000 etc.

 Some years ago I made a compilation CD with this track on it, and listened to the CD when laying down with headphones on . I must have dozed off just before this track started, and suddenly became aware that there appeared to be an approaching storm. I looked out the window, but the sky was blue !

 

Well recorded material played through better than average gear can not only present a very real sensation of depth, but height too.

[STC]

19 minutes ago, sandyk said:

Rubbish !

 

Rubbish is when insisting height information in stereo exist when  it is technically impossible.

 

Having said that, we all perceive height information but that is the brain constructing sound based on pre acquired knowledge. 

 

Record a twitting bird or a buzzing bee in the floor and play them over the speakers and you will perceive it to come from up. 

 

And yes. I got ordinary system without extraordinary ability to create the impossibilities. 

[sandyk]

41 minutes ago, STC said:

 

Rubbish is when insisting height information in stereo exist when  it is technically impossible.

 

 Bullshit !

 Is it any wonder that you are unable to hear the difference between well recorded 24/192 recordings and the same down converted to 16/44.1 ?

 Another A.S. member ( Audiophile Neuroscience) also  heard the Nelson Pass monoblocks  reveal this at the house of a Neurosurgeon friend of his , along with another couple of friends.

I have been fortunate to hear several systems in well optimised rooms that were worth more than $100K, including a $26,600 USD Gryphon Kalliope DAC .

 We also listened to the same recording through another high priced pair of mono blocks in the same session, and it couldn't make us jump involuntarily.

I think that you will find that even esldude will confirm that it is possible to convey a sensation of height with carefully placed microphones.

 

 It is obviously a waste of my time, and that of several other well experienced members to carry on any  meaningful discussions with you.

[STC]

4 minutes ago, sandyk said:

Bullshit

 

Exactly!  Did I say you don’t perceive height?

 

The snake oil continues because of misinformation from people like you. 

 

Here is is a table of the information encoded in the recording. 

 

[sandyk]

2 hours ago, Paul R said:

A really good soundstage can extend quite a distance into the room, and can present almost tangible images. Much more depth, and height information.

 STC

 Note also that Paul is saying the same too.

BTW, I don't give a rat's rear end for any incorrect reports that you care to quote either.

 BYE !

[STC]

1 minute ago, sandyk said:

 STC

 Note also that Paul is saying the same too.

 

I can put few samples of bee buzzing from different heights. Would you dare to guess the height?  

 

Hint- all of them will be heard above your head even if the bee is actually way below your head. 

 

Do some recordings and experiment yourself. 

 

Again in the chart for you. 

 

 

[STC]

How the non existence height information is created. 

 

Height

 

So let’s start with height.

 

It’s a strange and interesting phenomenon that we hear high pitched frequency content as coming from above, and low tones coming from below.

 

Partially this is due to suggestion. We subconsciously equivocated “high” pitch with “high on a vertical scale.” Partially, this is due to common tweeter placement with speaker woofers most often being lower than the tweeter in vertical alignment. Partially, this phenomenon is also caused by the way low frequency tones project. The wider dispersion of low tones allows them to reflect off the nearest surface such as your desk. Higher tones are more directional and will reach your ear without as much near reflection over short distances.

 

For these reasons and probably others, we tend to hear high harmonic content as “up” and low harmonic content as “down.”

 

By creating contrast in the extremes of the frequency spectrum we can make a mix sound “tall.”

 

If just one naturally bright element like a bell or hi-hat is a touch brighter, and one low element like a kick or bass is a touch subby-er, the whole mix will expand.

 

click on the link. 

[sandyk]

1 minute ago, STC said:

 

I can put few samples of bee buzzing from different heights. Would you dare to guess the height?  

 

 In case you haven't got it yet, I have no further interest in anything you care to post on the subject., especially since you aren't even able to appreciate the high res formats such as 24/192 and DSD as many other members do.

  

[STC]

7 minutes ago, sandyk said:

 

 In case you haven't got it yet, I have no further interest in anything you care to post on the subject., especially since you aren't even able to appreciate the high res formats such as 24/192 and DSD as many other members do.

  

 

Typical audiophile. When you cannot backup your absurd claims you start to accuse others. There is no height information although we may perceive to hear one. 

 

From Linkwitz. 

 

 Height information is not intentionally recorded in stereo, but the ear/brain perceptual apparatus can find cues in some recordings from which it forms an impression of the height of the AS. The height is perceived at a greater distance than the loudspeakers and not as above the listener, because he "looks" into the AS in front of him.

[PeterSt]

The high horse level in this thread starts to be, well, high.

[STC]

Not difficult to disprove right?  Unfortunately, you can’t because that’s the truth.