Popular Post mansr Posted September 27, 2019 Popular Post Share Posted September 27, 2019 1 hour ago, lucretius said: I mostly agree with Ms. Thunberg. But I don't like her attitude; it's confrontional and not helpful. Angry people don't impress me. YMMV. Angry and above all annoying. lucretius and Jud 1 1 Link to comment
botrytis Posted September 27, 2019 Share Posted September 27, 2019 3 minutes ago, mansr said: Angry and above all annoying. Well, environmentalists have been annoying for a long time then. She is trying to put her ideology into practice. I mean sailing to the US instead of taking a plane, has some dedication on her end. I think we need to be MORE annoying if we want to deal with global warming before it is too late. Teresa 1 Current: Daphile on an AMD A10-9500 with 16 GB RAM DAC - TEAC UD-501 DAC Pre-amp - Rotel RC-1590 Amplification - Benchmark AHB2 amplifier Speakers - Revel M126Be with 2 REL 7/ti subwoofers Cables - Tara Labs RSC Reference and Blue Jean Cable Balanced Interconnects Link to comment
Popular Post mansr Posted September 27, 2019 Popular Post Share Posted September 27, 2019 1 hour ago, botrytis said: Well, environmentalists have been annoying for a long time then. I'm talking about the presentation, not the message. esldude and lucretius 2 Link to comment
finca88 Posted September 27, 2019 Share Posted September 27, 2019 nice writeup guys... Link to comment
Jud Posted September 27, 2019 Share Posted September 27, 2019 14 minutes ago, mansr said: I'm talking about the presentation, not the message. Yes, heaven save us from annoying people! 😉 One never knows, do one? - Fats Waller The fairest thing we can experience is the mysterious. It is the fundamental emotion which stands at the cradle of true art and true science. - Einstein Computer, Audirvana -> optical Ethernet to Fitlet3 -> Fibbr Alpha Optical USB -> iFi NEO iDSD DAC -> Apollon Audio 1ET400A Mini (Purifi based) -> Vandersteen 3A Signature. Link to comment
esldude Posted September 27, 2019 Share Posted September 27, 2019 8 hours ago, firedog said: Can I ask why it's important to emphasize that he's a "naturalized" citizen? Does that somehow make him less of a citizen? I didn't emphasize it. In the past I've heard people say he has no business spending money in US politics because he isn't a citizen. He is a naturalized citizen. That is different than a native citizen. Not an emphasis just a description of how he is a citizen since many people know he is Hungarian by birth. And always keep in mind: Cognitive biases, like seeing optical illusions are a sign of a normally functioning brain. We all have them, it’s nothing to be ashamed about, but it is something that affects our objective evaluation of reality. Link to comment
esldude Posted September 27, 2019 Share Posted September 27, 2019 7 hours ago, semente said: What do you mean by America. The continent? The people who live in the continent? The USofA? The people who live in the USofA? Some people who live in the USofA (privileged middle aged white men? Business (originating from or based in the USofA)? In the USA, people typically refer to America. Yes actually there is north and south America and it isn't all the USA. So yes by America I mean USA. And yes the people who live here. And while his actions make help one group while not another (which is usually the case with anything of significance) I believe in totality it is a negative for the USA's population overall. For that matter I think the same of the Koch brothers (or as it now is the one Koch brother). And always keep in mind: Cognitive biases, like seeing optical illusions are a sign of a normally functioning brain. We all have them, it’s nothing to be ashamed about, but it is something that affects our objective evaluation of reality. Link to comment
esldude Posted September 27, 2019 Share Posted September 27, 2019 3 hours ago, charlesphoto said: My wife is a naturalized citizen. Never knew she was part of a giant globalist conspiracy to take over America and put all the stupid white conservative men in concentration camps.... actually, on second thought... maybe she's on to something... But I'll just stick to ignore lists, both of which esldude and sthf are now on ( they're the first). Threads like this are good for that. I see you are still displaying unusual talent for jumping to conclusions that don't make sense. Pity you'll not see this since I'm on ignore. I described him as a naturalized citizen which he is. I didn't say he was a globalist conspirator, in fact I said I thought there was no conspiracy, but he had the resources to apply influence in several ways that can make it look that way. Yet somehow you dreamed up the idea I implicated naturalized citizens as naturally part of a conspiracy along with other motivations I never implied (in fact denied). Since you have gotten all the facts wrong it is fine with me if you ignore my posts. And always keep in mind: Cognitive biases, like seeing optical illusions are a sign of a normally functioning brain. We all have them, it’s nothing to be ashamed about, but it is something that affects our objective evaluation of reality. Link to comment
esldude Posted September 27, 2019 Share Posted September 27, 2019 2 hours ago, botrytis said: People complain about George Soros but we never hear anything about how the Koch Brothers funded the Anti-global warming ideology. I started to mention the Koch Brothers, but figured it would lead to even more needless knee jerk reactions. I think they are on the other side, and bad for the country as a whole. And yes at least in my circle of acquaintances you would hear people complain about the Koch Brothers effect on politics. And always keep in mind: Cognitive biases, like seeing optical illusions are a sign of a normally functioning brain. We all have them, it’s nothing to be ashamed about, but it is something that affects our objective evaluation of reality. Link to comment
Popular Post wgscott Posted September 27, 2019 Popular Post Share Posted September 27, 2019 2 hours ago, Jud said: I would say some part of that is very possibly due to the Asperger's. Folks on that part of the spectrum are often very intelligent but have an anomalous affect (using the psychological meaning of that word). So I cut her some slack in that regard. We can't all be as neurotypical as @GUTB Ralf11, Jud, jhwalker and 6 others 1 8 Link to comment
esldude Posted September 27, 2019 Share Posted September 27, 2019 2 hours ago, Jud said: I would say some part of that is very possibly due to the Asperger's. Folks on that part of the spectrum are often very intelligent but have an anomalous affect (using the psychological meaning of that word). So I cut her some slack in that regard. I can cut her some slack on that too. It is more the petulant child who will school the adults on how things not need to be done, but must be done that rubs me the wrong way. She follows the IPCC summary about how we have to reduce emissions by 50% in the next 30 or so years to keep the warming at 1.5 to 2 degrees C. The next part is after that we have to be at zero emissions and/or start removal of carbon from the atmosphere on a large scale. I've got bad news for you. That latter part at least isn't going to happen. I don't see a viable way to achieve that in such a time frame. So Greta Thunburg lays down the law about what we must do. Says she isn't going to work in science as we already know what we need to do we simply have to stop emissions. Well a child can think that way. It isn't a winning formula for how to do it. I also think she has been scared beyond reason about her future being stolen. And yes I know what the future possibilities are in regards to what the IPCC report says can happen. Making the bulk of the world effectively uninhabitable by humans is dire. But that isn't in the cards for Greta Thunberg's lifetime. There are theoretical ways to achieve what is needed, but given the political nature of the world I fear it effectively cannot happen that quickly. You always have a hard time convincing people to radically in very short time frames alter what they do for a future effect many alive won't experience all that much, and which doesn't become a total disaster until they are are gone. No matter how certain it is. I still remember when the air was brown and much of the natural water was polluted like a sewer (or worse). There has been excellent progress made in those the last 50 years. The changes for that were much smaller than required to stop man made contributions to global warming. Yet it was a hard sale at the time. And always keep in mind: Cognitive biases, like seeing optical illusions are a sign of a normally functioning brain. We all have them, it’s nothing to be ashamed about, but it is something that affects our objective evaluation of reality. Link to comment
Popular Post Ralf11 Posted September 27, 2019 Popular Post Share Posted September 27, 2019 4 hours ago, charlesphoto said: ...put all the stupid white conservative men in concentration camps..... please!! tennis prisons jhwalker and lucretius 2 Link to comment
Popular Post Jud Posted September 27, 2019 Popular Post Share Posted September 27, 2019 27 minutes ago, esldude said: I can cut her some slack on that too. It is more the petulant child who will school the adults on how things not need to be done, but must be done that rubs me the wrong way. She follows the IPCC summary about how we have to reduce emissions by 50% in the next 30 or so years to keep the warming at 1.5 to 2 degrees C. The next part is after that we have to be at zero emissions and/or start removal of carbon from the atmosphere on a large scale. I've got bad news for you. That latter part at least isn't going to happen. I don't see a viable way to achieve that in such a time frame. So Greta Thunburg lays down the law about what we must do. Says she isn't going to work in science as we already know what we need to do we simply have to stop emissions. Well a child can think that way. It isn't a winning formula for how to do it. I also think she has been scared beyond reason about her future being stolen. And yes I know what the future possibilities are in regards to what the IPCC report says can happen. Making the bulk of the world effectively uninhabitable by humans is dire. But that isn't in the cards for Greta Thunberg's lifetime. There are theoretical ways to achieve what is needed, but given the political nature of the world I fear it effectively cannot happen that quickly. You always have a hard time convincing people to radically in very short time frames alter what they do for a future effect many alive won't experience all that much, and which doesn't become a total disaster until they are are gone. No matter how certain it is. I still remember when the air was brown and much of the natural water was polluted like a sewer (or worse). There has been excellent progress made in those the last 50 years. The changes for that were much smaller than required to stop man made contributions to global warming. Yet it was a hard sale at the time. Puts me in mind of a couple of things: Kennedy saying we should go to the moon "not because it is easy, but because it is hard;" and the old GE engineers'(?) slogan, "The difficult we do immediately. The impossible takes a little longer." Plainly, saying we're not going to achieve lofty goals isn't a great way to motivate people to try. I'm more inclined toward "Dammit, let's do this or go down fighting!" than concentrating on how difficult or perhaps impossible it might be. And any 16 year old, let alone one as motivated and with as blunt a manner as Ms. Thunberg, might well react with anger to repeatedly being told the previous generations have screwed things up so irretrievably that she must allow us to continue comfortably sliding toward hell rather than try to fix anything. BTW, she and the kids around her do have some sense of humor: jhwalker and Teresa 2 One never knows, do one? - Fats Waller The fairest thing we can experience is the mysterious. It is the fundamental emotion which stands at the cradle of true art and true science. - Einstein Computer, Audirvana -> optical Ethernet to Fitlet3 -> Fibbr Alpha Optical USB -> iFi NEO iDSD DAC -> Apollon Audio 1ET400A Mini (Purifi based) -> Vandersteen 3A Signature. Link to comment
esldude Posted September 27, 2019 Share Posted September 27, 2019 8 minutes ago, Jud said: Puts me in mind of a couple of things: Kennedy saying we should go to the moon "not because it is easy, but because it is hard;" and the old GE engineers'(?) slogan, "The difficult we do immediately. The impossible takes a little longer." Plainly, saying we're not going to achieve lofty goals isn't a great way to motivate people to try. I'm more inclined toward "Dammit, let's do this or go down fighting!" than concentrating on how difficult or perhaps impossible it might be. And any 16 year old, let alone one as motivated and with as blunt a manner as Ms. Thunberg, might well react with anger to repeatedly being told the previous generations have screwed things up so irretrievably that she must allow us to continue comfortably sliding toward hell rather than try to fix anything. BTW, she and the kids around her do have some sense of humor: How are things working out for GE these days? It was just a slogan for marketing you know. One that actually was used by the Army Corp of Engineers in WWII. One similar to the saying of the Finance minister for Maria Antoinette and King Louis. The fellow that attempted a far reaching financial reform to deal with France's debt. Which precipitated the French Revolution. His plan was to tax the noble wealthy to pay off France's debt. He personally kept his head, but had to leave the country. So I'd say the US Army made better use of the slogan. I find this meme of anger at prior generations curious too. Doesn't matter, when Greta is an adult and the previous generation or two is gone, one can be angry all you want. It isn't going to get you toward a solution. I don't see how it usefully motivates people toward handling what they face. It isn't true that prior generations used up your future to leave the mess for you in their minds. They made the best decisions they could. The result may be the same, but spending time on anger or placing blame doesn't get you anywhere. Maybe it is harmless if it gets people's attention. And always keep in mind: Cognitive biases, like seeing optical illusions are a sign of a normally functioning brain. We all have them, it’s nothing to be ashamed about, but it is something that affects our objective evaluation of reality. Link to comment
Popular Post DuckToller Posted September 27, 2019 Popular Post Share Posted September 27, 2019 https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2019/sep/27/the-greta-thunberg-problem-so-many-men-freaking-out-about-the-tiny-swedish-climate-demon First dog on the moon knows it all 😉 christopher3393 and semente 2 Link to comment
Popular Post Ralf11 Posted September 27, 2019 Popular Post Share Posted September 27, 2019 No, prior generations did NOT make the best decisions they could. DuckToller and Teresa 1 1 Link to comment
Popular Post semente Posted September 27, 2019 Author Popular Post Share Posted September 27, 2019 Apologies if this has been posted here. Attacks on Greta Thunberg Come from a Coordinated Network of Climate Change Deniers “Freak yachting accidents do happen…” That was how British businessman, Trump ally, and Brexit bankroller Arron Banks responded to the news that Greta Thunberg, the Swedish teen who inspired the school climate strikes movement, was sailing to America to attend the UN Climate Action Summit. His scorn was not unique. Many people have already spilled thousands of words of commentary explaining how personal attacks on Greta — often lobbed by old white men, sometimes mocking her Aspergers — are unacceptable. But understanding where those attackers come from, ideologically and professionally, casts an important light on some of their dark statements. continues here -> https://www.teenvogue.com/story/attacks-greta-thunberg-climate-deniers Teresa and DuckToller 2 "Science draws the wave, poetry fills it with water" Teixeira de Pascoaes HQPlayer Desktop / Mac mini → Intona 7054 → RME ADI-2 DAC FS (DSD256) Link to comment
esldude Posted September 27, 2019 Share Posted September 27, 2019 56 minutes ago, Ralf11 said: No, prior generations did NOT make the best decisions they could. I think collectively at the time they did. I certainly don't think they were thinking, " you know we could trash the future environment making it easier on us. So let's do that. We don't care about our grandchildren.". mansr 1 And always keep in mind: Cognitive biases, like seeing optical illusions are a sign of a normally functioning brain. We all have them, it’s nothing to be ashamed about, but it is something that affects our objective evaluation of reality. Link to comment
Popular Post DuckToller Posted September 27, 2019 Popular Post Share Posted September 27, 2019 48 minutes ago, esldude said: I think collectively at the time they did. I certainly don't think they were thinking, " you know we could trash the future environment making it easier on us. So let's do that. We don't care about our grandchildren.". Pls let me express my doubts on that theory. I think that scientists have had since along time calculations including long term effects, risks and costs of externalities for products like Nylon or HVAC, nuclear power and use of fossil ressources for energy deployment/production. But these are never (completely) included in business plans, as it is cheaper to push the framwork. This scenario is just about everywhere in the industry, weapons, chemicals, energy, pharmaceutics.You name it ... You don't pay lobbyists for leaving the legal framework on those subjects uncovered from your business interests. Just look at the Brumadinho dam desaster , where you can see, that accidents just happen. That's too bad ... Where a proper dealing with highly toxic waste wasn't conducted (obviously), and the consequences had been disatrous. Around 250 deaths and long term evironmental effects still not completely accounted for the region. And yes, it had a bad effect on Vale 's (the company owning the dam) stock price on short term, but that has nearly recovered as of July 19th. Only 6 month later. Isn't it ironic ? I think the coverage of this example is plain old school economics, you'll find that entrepreneurial spirit still everywhere where a lot of money is to be made in industrial operations, and that is the reason why I disagree. If you make business decisions, you just make sure that your grand children are not to close to your production line or the waste dumps. That's it. Tom Fluffytime and Teresa 1 1 Link to comment
elcorso Posted September 27, 2019 Share Posted September 27, 2019 1 hour ago, Ralf11 said: No, prior generations did NOT make the best decisions they could. Science evolution by that time... Roch Teresa 1 Link to comment
Popular Post Ralf11 Posted September 27, 2019 Popular Post Share Posted September 27, 2019 1 hour ago, esldude said: I think collectively at the time they did. I certainly don't think they were thinking, " you know we could trash the future environment making it easier on us. So let's do that. We don't care about our grandchildren.". Politicians were thinking "how can I get elected" & biz people were thinking "I'll get mine" - to say nothing of the aggressive PR campaigns by the fossil fuel industry. jhwalker, Fluffytime and Teresa 3 Link to comment
esldude Posted September 28, 2019 Share Posted September 28, 2019 3 hours ago, Ralf11 said: Politicians were thinking "how can I get elected" & biz people were thinking "I'll get mine" - to say nothing of the aggressive PR campaigns by the fossil fuel industry. Sure, just like any business does. Just like all politicians do. I did use the word collectively, because there is this idea future generations won't forgive past generations. I'd think that includes more than just execs and gov't officials. I think most people were going about their daily lives like anyone does and weren't thinking about screwing up the environment so they sure weren't thinking of I'll screw it up now, profit, and let the future take care the effects of that. So here is something I'd like to know, it is 1970. The environmental movement which mostly was established in the 1960's was on lots of peoples minds, and politically could have a good effect. So in broad outlines what could have been done differently so that we weren't in this rock and a hard place situation now with 10-30 years to make drastic changes. You'll have the benefit of hindsight. However I don't mean something ridiculous like, "suddenly in 1970 everyone would have seen how important being green was and would only have supported sustainable business or done without". No that won't cut it. Because there was no chance that was going to happen. Go ahead and dazzle me with how some of you would have fixed things starting then. There were of course some who knew about warming and sea level rise prior to 1970. It wasn't generally linked to increased carbon emissions until the late 1950's though knowledge of carbon in the greenhouse effect was known long ago. Lyndon Johnson was the first US president to mention sea level rise and the use of fossil fuels being linked. So I think 1970 is a good starting point for how it could have been done differently and done better. So I'd really like to see how the generations since WWII could have done far, far better. And once you've convinced me you could have done it right starting in 1970, you can outline viable ways to make it happen between now and 2050. And always keep in mind: Cognitive biases, like seeing optical illusions are a sign of a normally functioning brain. We all have them, it’s nothing to be ashamed about, but it is something that affects our objective evaluation of reality. Link to comment
Popular Post Jud Posted September 28, 2019 Popular Post Share Posted September 28, 2019 1 hour ago, esldude said: I think collectively at the time they did. I certainly don't think they were thinking, " you know we could trash the future environment making it easier on us. So let's do that. We don't care about our grandchildren.". It's been 31 years since James Hansen's Congressional testimony, longer since his work was initially published. Compare how short a time it took to ban DDT after Silent Spring. This is more like the time lapse between the Surgeon General's report in 1963 and the state lawsuits against the tobacco companies, and for similar reasons: a wealthy industry with political and media connections working feverishly to postpone the day of reckoning. Teresa, jhwalker and Fluffytime 3 One never knows, do one? - Fats Waller The fairest thing we can experience is the mysterious. It is the fundamental emotion which stands at the cradle of true art and true science. - Einstein Computer, Audirvana -> optical Ethernet to Fitlet3 -> Fibbr Alpha Optical USB -> iFi NEO iDSD DAC -> Apollon Audio 1ET400A Mini (Purifi based) -> Vandersteen 3A Signature. Link to comment
esldude Posted September 28, 2019 Share Posted September 28, 2019 1 minute ago, Jud said: It's been 31 years since James Hansen's Congressional testimony, longer since his work was initially published. Compare how short a time it took to ban DDT after Silent Spring. This is more like the time lapse between the Surgeon General's report in 1963 and the state lawsuits against the tobacco companies, and for similar reasons: a wealthy industry with political and media connections working feverishly to postpone the day of reckoning. I agree. Doesn't seem like a reason to condemn an entire generation for sins of the past. If anything currently wealthy entities have their ducks in a row to an unprecedented level to continue that kind of activity. And always keep in mind: Cognitive biases, like seeing optical illusions are a sign of a normally functioning brain. We all have them, it’s nothing to be ashamed about, but it is something that affects our objective evaluation of reality. Link to comment
Popular Post Jud Posted September 28, 2019 Popular Post Share Posted September 28, 2019 1 minute ago, esldude said: I agree. Doesn't seem like a reason to condemn an entire generation for sins of the past. If anything currently wealthy entities have their ducks in a row to an unprecedented level to continue that kind of activity. I suppose I am simply so much in agreement with her urgency that I don't take offense at a reasonably accurate criticism that we haven't acted with sufficient urgency to this point. jhwalker, Fluffytime, 4est and 1 other 3 1 One never knows, do one? - Fats Waller The fairest thing we can experience is the mysterious. It is the fundamental emotion which stands at the cradle of true art and true science. - Einstein Computer, Audirvana -> optical Ethernet to Fitlet3 -> Fibbr Alpha Optical USB -> iFi NEO iDSD DAC -> Apollon Audio 1ET400A Mini (Purifi based) -> Vandersteen 3A Signature. Link to comment
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