manisandher Posted May 29, 2019 Share Posted May 29, 2019 8 minutes ago, AnotherSpin said: I was not addressing you personally, hope you able to grasp this. But wait, it is not measurable, sorry... Hang on. You quoted me: 3 hours ago, manisandher said: [...] When I pointed out the flaws in the Yggy's sound (backed up with measurements) [...] Then you wrote this immediately after: 2 hours ago, AnotherSpin said: ... Do you select your wine because your choice supported by measurements? Do you like your day because weather measures perfect? But you weren't addressing me? Perhaps you should improve your writing skills? Can you grasp that? Mani. daverich4 1 Main: SOtM sMS-200 -> Okto dac8PRO -> 6x Neurochrome 286 mono amps -> Tune Audio Anima horns + 2x Rotel RB-1590 amps -> 4 subs Home Office: SOtM sMS-200 -> MOTU UltraLite-mk5 -> 6x Neurochrome 286 mono amps -> Impulse H2 speakers Vinyl: Technics SP10 / London (Decca) Reference -> Trafomatic Luna -> RME ADI-2 Pro Link to comment
PeterSt Posted May 29, 2019 Share Posted May 29, 2019 Always when that eggy comes about, things get steaming hot. Lush^3-e Lush^2 Blaxius^2.5 Ethernet^3 HDMI^2 XLR^2 XXHighEnd (developer) Phasure NOS1 24/768 Async USB DAC (manufacturer) Phasure Mach III Audio PC with Linear PSU (manufacturer) Orelino & Orelo MKII Speakers (designer/supplier) Link to comment
manisandher Posted May 29, 2019 Share Posted May 29, 2019 9 minutes ago, PeterSt said: Always when that eggy comes about, things get steaming hot. The whole Schiit Yggrasil ('Eggy' 😉) story is just a rehash of 'The Emperor's New Clothes'... with Moffat and Stoddard the two weavers. But it's come to those ranting and raving about it only 2 years ago now calling it a 2nd-rate DAC at best... which it always was. Mani. Main: SOtM sMS-200 -> Okto dac8PRO -> 6x Neurochrome 286 mono amps -> Tune Audio Anima horns + 2x Rotel RB-1590 amps -> 4 subs Home Office: SOtM sMS-200 -> MOTU UltraLite-mk5 -> 6x Neurochrome 286 mono amps -> Impulse H2 speakers Vinyl: Technics SP10 / London (Decca) Reference -> Trafomatic Luna -> RME ADI-2 Pro Link to comment
AnotherSpin Posted May 29, 2019 Share Posted May 29, 2019 26 minutes ago, manisandher said: Hang on. You quoted me: Then you wrote this immediately after: But you weren't addressing me? Perhaps you should improve your writing skills? Can you grasp that? Mani. "You" was rhetoric. Yes, my English is very far from perfect, it is not my mother tongue. Link to comment
Popular Post AnotherSpin Posted May 29, 2019 Popular Post Share Posted May 29, 2019 13 minutes ago, PeterSt said: Always when that eggy comes about, things get steaming hot. What amazes me though, why people who prefer some other product or design philosophy are taking a kind of personal vendetta against this or that piece of equipment, or software, or whatever else. Blake and spin33 1 1 Link to comment
Popular Post PeterSt Posted May 29, 2019 Popular Post Share Posted May 29, 2019 3 minutes ago, AnotherSpin said: What amazes me though, why people who prefer some other product or design philosophy are taking a kind of personal vendetta against this or that piece of equipment, or software, or whatever else. In general ? yes. But I suppose this is a bit culture related. It can also be called "protective". But if you were there during this larger thread about the Yggdrasil, if did not go that way at all. Instead Mani just asked a question about that DAC, actually about its unique sound which seemed not right to him, next people started to rant against him because that could not be (obviously those people where from the USA, Schiits home land) and when Mani found those measurements it now definitely 100% fir sure could not be wrong, because what was shown - again most defintely - could not be audible. Then a kind of hell broke loose, where our gmgraves took the lead in stating that Mani head to have too much of golden ears etc. etc. and our Schiit heads where jumping on him all over too. But it did not work really well for them because, say, I was there too and I knew about the chip. Obviously Mani and me worked together now, Mani receiving a lot of money from me or whatever. But it was all in people's minds because nothing of the kind was going on, especially not because my measurements were from two years earlier already. So it is all the other way around, and it is a bit sad to see that gmgraves doesn't even give in really while he was the biggest stoker at the time. Posts like this one keep on recurring and in aftermath it seems the hottest subject next to MQA, here on A/S. This is about the UNjustice done. Also easy to see how Mani easily gets angry to everybody even slightly twisting the subject against him or his findings of back then. The vendetta thing could have grown from accidentally me (Phasure) again being the provider of Mani's DAC and a few more things, but this is just a coincidence. That I wanted to use the chip of concern is also sheer coincidence with the sour thing of that just failed because of the very same poor measurement everybody rejected (hey, you did so too in this very thread - indirectly of course). Nobody even knew I was working with that chip as I kept it a secret (until I quit the project and just never told about it). As a matter of fact for me it was fun to be of help when Mani wondered what could be wrong with the Yggdrasil. How could he know that. Also, how could I know that this chip was used in there. But I found out. Vendettas often are in peoples minds. Nice for movies. But by now it starts to emerge for real. As in "see, I was right all the time". A personal thing. I ? I don't care. Well, maybe, because if a customer buys an other DAC which replaces ours, I am involved of course. And someone like Mani some times do that and try. And then of course it is nice to have the conformation that the trial did not work out and you still "have the best". If you look closely you can lose friends by it. One Phasure customer (somehow we are all friends) *did* get himself the Yggdrasil. If you'd know his handle and see Mani talk to him and know about this, you can see the snarking. OK, you won't but I do. Mani is a kind of pissed that it could happen (wrong decision to is mind) and I am only a bit sad and never spent a word about it. I suppose the whole subject is more loaded than people can see. It will also be more loaded than gmgraves will realize. But he must understand that he is the upside down vendetta guy. And the fact that I referred to a "reviewer" is even more loaded than much loaded. Many things going on some times, invisible to the unknown. Btw, this should be off topic. Peter 4est and manisandher 2 Lush^3-e Lush^2 Blaxius^2.5 Ethernet^3 HDMI^2 XLR^2 XXHighEnd (developer) Phasure NOS1 24/768 Async USB DAC (manufacturer) Phasure Mach III Audio PC with Linear PSU (manufacturer) Orelino & Orelo MKII Speakers (designer/supplier) Link to comment
manisandher Posted May 29, 2019 Share Posted May 29, 2019 Good summary Peter. It's true, I hold a bit of "I told you so" wrt this topic. The red/blue pill thread too. But at the end of the day, it's all pretty harmless really. You're right, it's off-topic, so enough 'venting' from me. Mani. PeterSt 1 Main: SOtM sMS-200 -> Okto dac8PRO -> 6x Neurochrome 286 mono amps -> Tune Audio Anima horns + 2x Rotel RB-1590 amps -> 4 subs Home Office: SOtM sMS-200 -> MOTU UltraLite-mk5 -> 6x Neurochrome 286 mono amps -> Impulse H2 speakers Vinyl: Technics SP10 / London (Decca) Reference -> Trafomatic Luna -> RME ADI-2 Pro Link to comment
AnotherSpin Posted May 29, 2019 Share Posted May 29, 2019 2 hours ago, PeterSt said: In general ? yes. But I suppose this is a bit culture related. It can also be called "protective". But if you were there during this larger thread about the Yggdrasil, if did not go that way at all. Instead Mani just asked a question about that DAC, actually about its unique sound which seemed not right to him, next people started to rant against him because that could not be (obviously those people where from the USA, Schiits home land) and when Mani found those measurements it now definitely 100% fir sure could not be wrong, because what was shown - again most defintely - could not be audible. Then a kind of hell broke loose, where our gmgraves took the lead in stating that Mani head to have too much of golden ears etc. etc. and our Schiit heads where jumping on him all over too. But it did not work really well for them because, say, I was there too and I knew about the chip. Obviously Mani and me worked together now, Mani receiving a lot of money from me or whatever. But it was all in people's minds because nothing of the kind was going on, especially not because my measurements were from two years earlier already. So it is all the other way around, and it is a bit sad to see that gmgraves doesn't even give in really while he was the biggest stoker at the time. Posts like this one keep on recurring and in aftermath it seems the hottest subject next to MQA, here on A/S. This is about the UNjustice done. Also easy to see how Mani easily gets angry to everybody even slightly twisting the subject against him or his findings of back then. The vendetta thing could have grown from accidentally me (Phasure) again being the provider of Mani's DAC and a few more things, but this is just a coincidence. That I wanted to use the chip of concern is also sheer coincidence with the sour thing of that just failed because of the very same poor measurement everybody rejected (hey, you did so too in this very thread - indirectly of course). Nobody even knew I was working with that chip as I kept it a secret (until I quit the project and just never told about it). As a matter of fact for me it was fun to be of help when Mani wondered what could be wrong with the Yggdrasil. How could he know that. Also, how could I know that this chip was used in there. But I found out. Vendettas often are in peoples minds. Nice for movies. But by now it starts to emerge for real. As in "see, I was right all the time". A personal thing. I ? I don't care. Well, maybe, because if a customer buys an other DAC which replaces ours, I am involved of course. And someone like Mani some times do that and try. And then of course it is nice to have the conformation that the trial did not work out and you still "have the best". If you look closely you can lose friends by it. One Phasure customer (somehow we are all friends) *did* get himself the Yggdrasil. If you'd know his handle and see Mani talk to him and know about this, you can see the snarking. OK, you won't but I do. Mani is a kind of pissed that it could happen (wrong decision to is mind) and I am only a bit sad and never spent a word about it. I suppose the whole subject is more loaded than people can see. It will also be more loaded than gmgraves will realize. But he must understand that he is the upside down vendetta guy. And the fact that I referred to a "reviewer" is even more loaded than much loaded. Many things going on some times, invisible to the unknown. Btw, this should be off topic. Peter Thank you for going in length to explain your perspective on this. I am not even slightly involved in all these things, never knew and never was interested at all. Didn't know about professional interest of those involved in discussion. My personal outlook tells me to say a few good words if you do like something or someone and stay away and keep silent if you don't. Given the level of long term involvement of some people here in the matter someone would be easily irritated by rather neutral comments of those not in the know. Noted. Link to comment
Popular Post Blake Posted May 29, 2019 Popular Post Share Posted May 29, 2019 EDITED: As a counterpoint to the negative comments- read Chris' review of the Yggy Analog 2. Chris has heard a DAC or two in his days and he gave the Yggy 2 very high marks. I understand some of the anti-Schiit sentiment. I will admit to having a heavy bias against Schiit for a number of years, just because people gushed so much about the original Yggy, it eventually became annoying. Then my DAC failed and I gave the Yggy 2 a try. I love it. But if others don't like it, fine. My Yggy did sound poor when it was new and cold out of the box, but it dramatically improved over time. Yggy 2 measurements, which, yawn, I have no interest in discussing but others might (yes, from the fanboy site, but Atomic Bob is legit): https://www.superbestaudiofriends.org/index.php?threads/schiit-yggdrasil-v2-upgrade-technical-measurements.5820/ Josh Mound, AnotherSpin and Jean 2 1 Speaker Room: Lumin U1X | Lampizator Pacific 2 | Viva Linea | Constellation Inspiration Stereo 1.0 | FinkTeam Kim | Revel subs Office Headphone System: Lumin U1X | Lampizator Golden Gate 3 | Viva Egoista | Abyss AB1266 Phi TC Link to comment
Summit Posted May 29, 2019 Share Posted May 29, 2019 It’s all relative and depends on which other DACs you compare the Schiit Yggrasil too, of course. I’m, for example, is no aficionada of Chord’s DACs, while many others seems to be. Link to comment
Popular Post crenca Posted May 29, 2019 Popular Post Share Posted May 29, 2019 5 hours ago, Blake said: EDITED: As a counterpoint to the negative comments- read Chris' review of the Yggy Analog 2. Chris has heard a DAC or two in his days and he gave the Yggy 2 very high marks. I understand some of the anti-Schiit sentiment. I will admit to having a heavy bias against Schiit for a number of years, just because people gushed so much about the original Yggy, it eventually became annoying. Then my DAC failed and I gave the Yggy 2 a try. I love it. But if others don't like it, fine. My Yggy did sound poor when it was new and cold out of the box, but it dramatically improved over time. Yggy 2 measurements, which, yawn, I have no interest in discussing but others might (yes, from the fanboy site, but Atomic Bob is legit): https://www.superbestaudiofriends.org/index.php?threads/schiit-yggdrasil-v2-upgrade-technical-measurements.5820/ So as those measurements indicate, Schiit fixed/updated the Yggy soon after it came out and Stereophile and others made something (rightly? wrongly? I suspect wrongly but who knows) of the crossover glitch? Today, in May of 2019 a competitor/manufacturer such as @PeterStis still making something of this now fixed issue?? Or is he making something of the current THD and the like? Blake and AnotherSpin 1 1 Hey MQA, if it is not all $voodoo$, show us the math! Link to comment
Popular Post Samuel T Cogley Posted May 29, 2019 Popular Post Share Posted May 29, 2019 I think people who charge or pay $10k+ for a DAC are just cheesed that a DAC almost as good can be had for under $2,400. Complaints of "zero crossing glitch", THD, etc., are all just window dressing for that cheese. manisandher, esldude, Jean and 2 others 1 1 1 2 Link to comment
Superdad Posted May 29, 2019 Share Posted May 29, 2019 1 hour ago, Samuel T Cogley said: ...are all just window dressing for that cheese. The "Cheese DAC." Great name. Or should I say grate name? [EDIT]: Come to think of it, Yggdrasil does sound like a type of cheese. A bit like Wensleydale perhaps? UpTone Audio LLC Link to comment
Ralf11 Posted May 29, 2019 Share Posted May 29, 2019 I'd prefer a more Burgundian DAC -- something that was illegal to take onto public transit... Ralf11 1 Link to comment
Popular Post Jean Posted May 30, 2019 Popular Post Share Posted May 30, 2019 I recently brought home a Yggy, I'd been debating it for over a year and was almost convinced not to try it because of the online stigma regarding audio measurements. I'm glad that I decided to try it out and let my ears decide. The Yggy sounds unbelievable in my system, and I can't wait to get a proper amp/headphone amp to support it. One and a half, Josh Mound, Blake and 1 other 1 3 Hardware: JCAT NET Card FEMTO -> SOtM tX-USBexp -> iFi iUSB 3.0 > iFi Gemini USB -> Schiit Yggdrasil -> Emotiva Stealth DC-1 (temporary preamp) -> Airmotiv 4s Software: Fidelizer Pro 7.3 -> Tidal -> Roon Link to comment
esldude Posted May 30, 2019 Share Posted May 30, 2019 4 hours ago, Jean said: I recently brought home a Yggy, I'd been debating it for over a year and was almost convinced not to try it because of the online stigma regarding audio measurements. I'm glad that I decided to try it out and let my ears decide. The Yggy sounds unbelievable in my system, and I can't wait to get a proper amp/headphone amp to support it. I would think a good DAC would sound believable. The best DAC would sound the most believable. Sounds like you made a good choice with the Yggy. 🤭 And always keep in mind: Cognitive biases, like seeing optical illusions are a sign of a normally functioning brain. We all have them, it’s nothing to be ashamed about, but it is something that affects our objective evaluation of reality. Link to comment
gmgraves Posted May 30, 2019 Share Posted May 30, 2019 On 5/28/2019 at 11:19 PM, manisandher said: What's my point? That going from "the best I'd ever heard" to "I no longer consider the Yiggy as anything better than a 2nd rate DAC!" qualifies as 'having seen the light'. That's all. When I pointed out the flaws in the Yggy's sound (backed up with measurements) in your thread 2 years ago, you were vociferous in defending it. There was (still is?) a lot of hyperbole around the Yggy, and it's good that someone like you can now see it for what it is - a 2nd-rate DAC at best. I don’t regard it in that way. There’s no “light” to see. I’ve simply found a better DAC as was bound to happen eventually - to any audiophile. On 5/28/2019 at 11:19 PM, manisandher said: Are you aware that you can apply a filter with 1,000,000 taps in HQPlayer with a click of a button and then feed it to whichever DAC you choose? Mani. I’m aware of it, but I don’t use HQPlayer because it needs USB. I don’t like USB for a number of reasons, so, I don’t use it. George Link to comment
manisandher Posted May 30, 2019 Share Posted May 30, 2019 4 minutes ago, gmgraves said: I don’t regard it in that way. There’s no “light” to see. I’ve simply found a better DAC as was bound to happen eventually - to any audiophile. I've had the same DAC for nearly 10 years, admittedly with a number of upgrades along the way. It's outperformed every other DAC I've put it up against during this time, including my beloved Pacific Microsonics Model Two. 4 minutes ago, gmgraves said: I’m aware of it, but I don’t use HQPlayer because it needs USB. I don’t like USB for a number of reasons, so, I don’t use it. HQPlayer doesn't need USB. If you have an spdif output from your audio PC and your DAC has an spdif input, that'll work fine - I've used this many times. But of course, if your only option is to use USB, then yes, that's all that HQPlayer can use. Mani. Main: SOtM sMS-200 -> Okto dac8PRO -> 6x Neurochrome 286 mono amps -> Tune Audio Anima horns + 2x Rotel RB-1590 amps -> 4 subs Home Office: SOtM sMS-200 -> MOTU UltraLite-mk5 -> 6x Neurochrome 286 mono amps -> Impulse H2 speakers Vinyl: Technics SP10 / London (Decca) Reference -> Trafomatic Luna -> RME ADI-2 Pro Link to comment
gmgraves Posted May 31, 2019 Share Posted May 31, 2019 7 hours ago, manisandher said: I've had the same DAC for nearly 10 years, admittedly with a number of upgrades along the way. It's outperformed every other DAC I've put it up against during this time, including my beloved Pacific Microsonics Model Two. That doesn’t mean that there aren’t better DACs out there, it just means that you haven’t personally run across them. 7 hours ago, manisandher said: HQPlayer doesn't need USB. If you have an spdif output from your audio PC and your DAC has an spdif input, that'll work fine - I've used this many times. But of course, if your only option is to use USB, then yes, that's all that HQPlayer can use. Mani. In my case the Mac laptop that I would use for music, like most laptops, only has a USB interface for digital audio out (it’s a 9 year old MacBook Pro with a Core2 Duo for a processor). George Link to comment
daverich4 Posted May 31, 2019 Share Posted May 31, 2019 17 hours ago, gmgraves said: That doesn’t mean that there aren’t better DACs out there, it just means that you haven’t personally run across them. In my case the Mac laptop that I would use for music, like most laptops, only has a USB interface for digital audio out (it’s a 9 year old MacBook Pro with a Core2 Duo for a processor). Without knowing which exact model you have it’s still quite possible it has Toslink built into the headphone jack. https://babcuvpisecek.com/htpc/do-i-have-optical-out-apple-toslink-spdif-compatibility-list/ Link to comment
Superdad Posted May 31, 2019 Share Posted May 31, 2019 On 5/30/2019 at 11:52 AM, gmgraves said: I’m aware of it, but I don’t use HQPlayer because it needs USB. I don’t like USB for a number of reasons, so, I don’t use it. 18 hours ago, gmgraves said: In my case the Mac laptop that I would use for music, like most laptops, only has a USB interface for digital audio out (it’s a 9 year old MacBook Pro with a Core2 Duo for a processor). Uh, okay: So if you don’t use USB, but you have a laptop with just USB, then how do you connect with your DAC? Or are you not doing computer audio at all and instead just using a CD transport or CD player? Or Bluetooth? BTW, what don’t like about USB for audio? UpTone Audio LLC Link to comment
gmgraves Posted May 31, 2019 Share Posted May 31, 2019 3 hours ago, daverich4 said: Without knowing which exact model you have it’s still quite possible it has Toslink built into the headphone jack. https://babcuvpisecek.com/htpc/do-i-have-optical-out-apple-toslink-spdif-compatibility-list/ Well, if it does, it’s obviously broken, but I don’t think it does. I look into the 3.5mm jack and I see no light. Also if I plug in a 3.5 mm TosLink adapter and a TosLink cable, I see no light coming through the Toslink cable. George Link to comment
gmgraves Posted June 1, 2019 Share Posted June 1, 2019 3 hours ago, Superdad said: Uh, okay: So if you don’t use USB, but you have a laptop with just USB, then how do you connect with your DAC? Or are you not doing computer audio at all and instead just using a CD transport or CD player? Or Bluetooth? BTW, what don’t like about USB for audio? I use an Oppo CDP-205 as my digital music hub. I connect to my music collection via Wi-Fi from my office computer. But, I do not use the Oppo’s twin ESS SabreDACs for output, I connect the Oppo’s coax S/PDIF to connect with the Yggdrasil. Now, I occasionally connect a thumb drive to the Oppo’s front- mounted USB, especially when a friend brings a file over to my house for listening. ln side by side comparisons, S/PDIF vs USB always favors S/PDIF sonically, and the difference is not subtle either! Also if look at my previous post, you will notice that I said that the PowerBook is the computer that I “would” use for music if I were using a laptop, which I don’t. George Link to comment
daverich4 Posted June 1, 2019 Share Posted June 1, 2019 1 hour ago, gmgraves said: Well, if it does, it’s obviously broken, but I don’t think it does. I look into the 3.5mm jack and I see no light. Also if I plug in a 3.5 mm TosLink adapter and a TosLink cable, I see no light coming through the Toslink cable. You wouldn’t see a light unless you tell your Mac to use that for output. https://m.wikihow.com/Change-the-Sound-Output-on-a-Mac Link to comment
Popular Post gmgraves Posted June 1, 2019 Popular Post Share Posted June 1, 2019 5 hours ago, daverich4 said: You wouldn’t see a light unless you tell your Mac to use that for output. https://m.wikihow.com/Change-the-Sound-Output-on-a-Mac Apple says that my MacBook Pro has Toslink co-axial with the headphone jack. Thanks for the link. I just ordered a 6ft Toslink cable with a 3.5 mm to standard male Toslink connector. It should be here Monday. I bought this Mac used a couple of years ago with no documentation. I put 8 gig of RAM and a 1TB SS drive in the unit, as well as the highest OS number that the computer will support. Other than that, I had no idea about the Toslink. I knew that SOME MacBook pros had optical I/O but I didn’t know that it only worked when the port was connected to an input and the optical was selected in the sound preference panel. Therefore when I didn’t see a red light in the female connector, I assumed that the one I had wasn’t one of them. So, daverich4, thanks again for the info. It’s peer support like this that makes Audiophile Style an invaluable resource. Sam Lord and daverich4 1 1 George Link to comment
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