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Monitor speakers on top of subs

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I listen to a fair amount of music with pipe organ in it. In the interest of reaching below 20Hz, I am considering replacing my current floorstanders with subs with stacked monitors on top since floor space is limited.  Anyone else doing this? I would assume isolation between the two would be important. Are there problems I should know about?

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yes, the idea is to prevent the monitors or other cabinets form moving as that will modulate the output of the small drivers

 

it is the reason people buy spikes for their cabinet speakers

 

so... don't 

 

or do and just ignore the phase shifting


"The overwhelming majority [of audiophiles] have very little knowledge, if any, about the most basic principles and operating characteristics of audio equipment. They often base their purchasing decisions on hearsay, and the preaching of media sages. Unfortunately, because of commercial considerations, much information is rooted in increasing revenue, not in assisting the audiophile. It seems as if the only requirements for becoming an "authority" in the world of audio is a keyboard."

-- Bruce Rozenblit of Transcendent Sound

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I would put something in between. Maybe use sorbothane sandwiched by acoustic foam.

 

But I don't see how you would bring the monitors to ear level unless you are going to stack speaker stands on top of the subs.

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If your current floorstanders are suitable for your needs except for very low bass then just adding a sub with very low frequency crossover should work. Low frequencies are not directional so the sub could theoretically be placed almost anywhere.

 

Both isolating the monitors from subwoofer vibration and ensuring that they are rigidly mounted could be difficult or ugly.

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1 hour ago, GregWormald said:

If your current floorstanders are suitable for your needs except for very low bass then just adding a sub with very low frequency crossover should work. Low frequencies are not directional so the sub could theoretically be placed almost anywhere.

 

Both isolating the monitors from subwoofer vibration and ensuring that they are rigidly mounted could be difficult or ugly.

Adding a sub is out of the question due to lack of space.

1 hour ago, davide256 said:

Are you using room correction software? Changing speaker solution sounds like you are attacking the wrong problem.

 

 

Thank you all.

Current spkrs are Ohm 5000s which are not imaging very well in my space + they don't go low enough, so thinking monitors + subs will.

Re: RC, It would need to be digital between Aurender N100H (usb only out) and W4S DAC. Looking at DSSpeaker. Adding RC still doesn't get me the below-20Hz I'm looking for.

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On 5/22/2019 at 11:55 AM, coot said:

Adding a sub is out of the question due to lack of space.

Thank you all.

Current spkrs are Ohm 5000s which are not imaging very well in my space + they don't go low enough, so thinking monitors + subs will.

Re: RC, It would need to be digital between Aurender N100H (usb only out) and W4S DAC. Looking at DSSpeaker. Adding RC still doesn't get me the below-20Hz I'm looking for.

mmm, plan on at least 200w per side if you want below 20hz bass. A quality powered sub sounds like your best bet and probably some research into  room conditioning

for your imaging dissatisfaction.

 

Have seen a Virgil Fox DD recording causing clipping to mono McIntosh power amps feeding Klipschorns  a 13hz pedal tone... takes a big investment to get bass below 20hz

right.


Regards,

Dave

 

Audio system

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very true - I'll add that the multi-sub system is worth a look as you can more easily avoid standing waves - may be called "swarm"

 

 


"The overwhelming majority [of audiophiles] have very little knowledge, if any, about the most basic principles and operating characteristics of audio equipment. They often base their purchasing decisions on hearsay, and the preaching of media sages. Unfortunately, because of commercial considerations, much information is rooted in increasing revenue, not in assisting the audiophile. It seems as if the only requirements for becoming an "authority" in the world of audio is a keyboard."

-- Bruce Rozenblit of Transcendent Sound

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OK - more research has me setting 24" tall Tekton Impact Monitors (isolated) atop a pair of 25" tall Powersound V1510 subs (isolated from floor). Preamp, crossovers and room correction would be handled by a DSpeaker X4. At a later date I will power the monitors with Primaluna tubes.

 

On paper at least this gets me from well below 20Hz on up. 

 

Comments are welcome.

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There's no inherent difference between stacking monitors on top of subwoofers and having floorstanders with sub-capable woofers built in. With dampening between the cabinet it shouldn't be a problem.

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I came across a very smart isolating concept some years, in a retail speaker: the low bass drivers were in a completely separate cabinet, but the overall design made it appear as if they were indeed integrated. Visually it worked nicely; the reality was that the drivers handling the higher frequencies were in a box which was firmly sitting on the floor, so one could make the mating between that cabinet and floor be whatever one wanted.


Frank

 

http://artofaudioconjuring.blogspot.com/

 

 

Ahhh, Mankind ... Porsche intellect, Trabant emotions ...

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On 5/21/2019 at 7:20 PM, coot said:

I listen to a fair amount of music with pipe organ in it. In the interest of reaching below 20Hz, I am considering replacing my current floorstanders with subs with stacked monitors on top since floor space is limited.  Anyone else doing this? I would assume isolation between the two would be important. Are there problems I should know about?

Hi Coot, out of curiosity what solution have you chosen?

l’m asking as in a somewhat similar situation - pipe organ fan, purchased active monitors (Focal twin be6) yet still unbalanced as for the subwoofer...

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The 8c's are $8k+  retail.

 

I would urge people to not put expensive, accurate monitors on top of subs.  Any movement of the cabinet by the subs will cause intermodulation caused by Doppler shifts.  Puck isolators can only alter the 'Q' of the resonance, not eliminate it.

 

The best technique will be a separate stand, and either try to decouple that, or spike it into the floor - there are adv.s and dis-adv.s to either technique...


"The overwhelming majority [of audiophiles] have very little knowledge, if any, about the most basic principles and operating characteristics of audio equipment. They often base their purchasing decisions on hearsay, and the preaching of media sages. Unfortunately, because of commercial considerations, much information is rooted in increasing revenue, not in assisting the audiophile. It seems as if the only requirements for becoming an "authority" in the world of audio is a keyboard."

-- Bruce Rozenblit of Transcendent Sound

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9 hours ago, AudioDoctor said:

Not as simple an implementation I would guess, but thats basically what Joseph Audio does, and these are some fantastic speakers.

 

http://www.josephaudio.com/pearl3

Exactly. Whilst appreciating Ralf11's stricture, nevertheless some of the most successful speakers on the planet consist of a small upper bass/mid/treble module seated on top of woofers/subwoofers in a separate cabinet. For example speakers from Wilson Audio, Verity, the Kii Three + BXT and too many more to name. All, AFAIK ,implement some form of decoupling between the modules. It seems that this style of speaker has to be judged to be a successful recipe if sales and number of "me too" models introduced over the past four decades since the Wilson Watt  Puppy is considered.

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I'm not saying it cannot be done, just that it is not a cost-optimal way to go...

 

I prefer to not have drivers in a box at all


"The overwhelming majority [of audiophiles] have very little knowledge, if any, about the most basic principles and operating characteristics of audio equipment. They often base their purchasing decisions on hearsay, and the preaching of media sages. Unfortunately, because of commercial considerations, much information is rooted in increasing revenue, not in assisting the audiophile. It seems as if the only requirements for becoming an "authority" in the world of audio is a keyboard."

-- Bruce Rozenblit of Transcendent Sound

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4 hours ago, Ralf11 said:

I'm not saying it cannot be done, just that it is not a cost-optimal way to go...

 

I prefer to not have drivers in a box at all

 

I didn't think you did, only that it would be really expensive to get right. None of the speakers designed this way, are cheap.


No electron left behind...

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As Ralf states, stabilising the drivers so they don't wobble about is critical; expensive commercial speakers make it happen by using very inert, heavy cabinets - if you don't want to pay the money that this will cost you, simply make the value for money speakers that are available have effectively the same qualities. Reasonable drivers in a boringly standard shoebox were made to deliver an intense pipe organ presentation decades ago, by following this procedure - the goal is make the cabinet, no matter how flimsy it is intrinsically, feel as if it's immensely solid when you lightly push on it, from any angle.


Frank

 

http://artofaudioconjuring.blogspot.com/

 

 

Ahhh, Mankind ... Porsche intellect, Trabant emotions ...

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On 9/3/2019 at 10:40 AM, Pat17 said:

Hi Coot, out of curiosity what solution have you chosen?

l’m asking as in a somewhat similar situation - pipe organ fan, purchased active monitors (Focal twin be6) yet still unbalanced as for the subwoofer...

No decision as yet. Still scraping $$ together. And I haven't yet approached HER about it...

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On 9/5/2019 at 2:53 AM, coot said:

No decision as yet. Still scraping $$ together. And I haven't yet approached HER about it...

Thanks for the update! The HER factor might not be the easiest to deal with indeed... Good luck! 😉

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@coot how about using a pair of PASSIVE subwoofers made years ago by cambridge soundworks (henry kloss's old company) don't take up much space could probably stack your monitors on them or stick them under a chair

i have 2 sets (come in set of 2)-i could send you  one of mine or am sure you can find them on ebay or amazon or elsewhere really cheap-look 'em up 

Edited by bobbmd
correction

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