Myth - retrieving the real sound.

[esldude]

4 minutes ago, STC said:

Here is a recording made with iPhone. According to @esldude , human do not hear delayed because the brain ignore them. 

 

He is wrong because the saxophone will sound different at LP to human in both venues. It will also sound different to the iPhone. However, depending on a lesser level of reverbs captured by the iPhone in a very reverberant room, it sounds almost natural with loudspeakers. 

 

 

 

If you want to quote me, do so accurately.  I've made no such stupid claim.  Though you apparently misunderstand it just that much. 

No where have I said an anechoic recording will sound like the one in a room.  Yes, our brain mostly ignores early reflections.  Otherwise your portrayal of my opinions is not at all correct. 

 

This will be my last reply to you of any kind.  I ask you refrain from referring to me unless you can do so accurately.  You have shown nothing, but misunderstanding me so far.  So just agree you and I don't communicate to each other well and drop it. 

[STC]

15 minutes ago, esldude said:

If you want to quote me, do so accurately.  I've made no such stupid claim. 

 

You said:-

 

1) The ear or ear/brain literally doesn't hear sounds from a delayed and different direction for some tens of milliseconds

 

2) You hear the direct sound from the speaker while early reflections from different directions and slightly delayed are not perceived. 

 

3) Your ears key on direct sound from the speakers, and mostly ignores early short delay reflections from other directions.  

 

4) Our hearing processes away some substantial portion of the room sound.

 

5) Ears most definitely do not hear all reflections as they occur.  They process, filter out, meld and respond to them depending on direction, delay, frequency and intensity.

 

At least try answering this.

 

Let's use just confine to a delayed sound by 10ms coming from 135 degrees. At LP you claimed our brains would ignore them. However, if you record and play them via speakers it will be unmasked and you hear them. (Hate to go back and search the exact quote).

 

Isn't the reflected sound still reaches your ears by 10ms delay as the original event? Yes or No?

 

[esldude]

Tried to PM this to you.  Says you cannot receive messages.  So I'll put it here.

 

Look somehow or another you and I do not communicate without frequent misunderstandings.  I've run into people like this from time to time.  Maybe its me, maybe its you, maybe some of both.  Doesn't matter.  Somehow the way we think and reason about matters gets all twisted.  I've found it best to just avoid that when possible.  Neither of us want or need the aggravation.  

 

Your last question:

 

Let's use just confine to a delayed sound by 10ms coming from 135 degrees. At LP you claimed our brains would ignore them. However, if you record and play them via speakers it will be unmasked and you hear them. (Hate to go back and search the exact quote).

 

Isn't the reflected sound still reaches your ears by 10ms delay as the original event? Yes or No?

 

Yes, the reflected sound trails by 10 milliseconds even in the recording.  But in person it comes from a different direction having an different interaural time difference between ears versus the direct sound.  It is recognized as a short delay of the original direct sound.  Upon playback, it originates from the speaker, in the same location with the same interaural delay as the direct sound.  It is heard as an added in direct sound and not partly filtered out.  When you are recording music in a real space this is good as it lets the space overlay itself into your space.  Recordings of speakers and played back it inserts that same space in a way you didn't hear it if listening in person.  To some extent you can get the same problem recording chamber music in a small chamber.   The smaller space is too much in evidence to sound right. 

 

Now some of your posting appeared to accuse me of not understanding this.  And appeared to have you agreeing with the idea.  Now it seems not.  I don't know. 

 

So, maybe I've been an ass.  My apologies.  I don't claim to know everything.

 

So I'll not be responding to your postings anymore.  I'm sorry, but it seems better if I don't.  I'm not trying to irritate anyone unnecessarily.   So sorry that I have. 

 

 

 

 

[STC]

10 minutes ago, esldude said:

Tried to PM this to you.  Says you cannot receive messages.  So I'll put it here.

 

Not sure why PM not working.

 

10 minutes ago, esldude said:

 

Look somehow or another you and I do not communicate without frequent misunderstandings.  I've run into people like this from time to time.  Maybe its me, maybe its you, maybe some of both.  Doesn't matter.  Somehow the way we think and reason about matters gets all twisted.  I've found it best to just avoid that when possible.  Neither of us want or need the aggravation.  

 

If I believe I am wasting my time engaging with someone I just ignore or stop responding to their post unless necessary. In your case, we are on the same page except this minor misunderstanding of the reverberation concept.

 

So I ask for one last chance. Just listen to what I have to say here and we both will understand each other because it is a confusion which I too used to repeat which I believed I relied on statements made under different conception. Although, I need to search more I hope you will look up on 'pure delay" and hear James Johnson again. Pure delay is often used in other context but I can't cite the relevant papers. Anyway, that's beside the point.

 

 

10 minutes ago, esldude said:

 

Your last question:

 

Let's use just confine to a delayed sound by 10ms coming from 135 degrees. At LP you claimed our brains would ignore them. However, if you record and play them via speakers it will be unmasked and you hear them. (Hate to go back and search the exact quote).

 

Isn't the reflected sound still reaches your ears by 10ms delay as the original event? Yes or No?

 

Yes, the reflected sound trails by 10 milliseconds even in the recording.  But in person it comes from a different direction having an different interaural time difference between ears versus the direct sound

 

 

 

This is where you are missing one crucial point. There are late signals comes from the same direction as the original sound too. A sound from a trumpet will be reflected form the floor, from the back of the stage, form the immediate side objects and reaches in tact to the microphone. And you still here them in the replay but it sounds correct because a typical audiophile setting would be LEDE. So there are no additional reverbs other than the sound being played by the speakers as far as the frontal reverberation is concerned which doesn't affect the clarity because the are coming from the same direction as the original sound + reverb.

 

The virtual hall concept is based on reverbs being produced from various angles. I understand them well otherwise, I could not be using it my system without distorting the sound.