Best Audiophile USB Card ?

[Topk]

On 6/28/2020 at 10:29 PM, matthias said:

 

The new JCAT USB XE and this one from Sonnet for example:

 

https://www.sonnettech.com/product/allegro-usbc-pcie.html

 

Both use the ASM3142 chip which seems to be the best sounding one.

 

Matt

Taiko chose a different chipset for their USB card, they rejected ASM3142

 

Also the Sonnet card doesn’t accept LPS and is unclear what the clock is. So on paper it can’t compete with others like Jcat or PF

[Topk]

35 minutes ago, matthias said:

 

Yes, Taiko do not use the ASM.

Very often there is no relation between specs and musicality so there is no way than to do a listening comparison.

 

Matt

Speaking about listening comparisons, I did try the El Fidelity (EF) USB card that was mentioned above. It is actually surprisingly good and will sound better (yes significantly BETTER) than Jcat Femto and XE if your system is not fully sorted with top LPS like JS2, optimo/initio, SJ or PH....etc, ATX LPS etc. The EF sounds naturally very musical, fuller and warmer. But it can’t reach the level of Jcat past a certain point. 

 

So yes, the Jcat cards have huge potential and ultimately are in a different level than the EF (no doubt) BUT they need excellent power and generally speaking a very well sorted PC AND they need a higher end hifi system.

 

With a lower to mid end setup, I actually recommend the EF vs Jcat. A friend who had or tried Pink Faun, EF, Femto and XE says the same conclusion. He bought and left Femto on the shelf for more than a year and used EF until he maxed out his PC and only then the Femto was better (much better actually). 

 

The EF is only 39 EUR so the value for money is off the charts and you can’t go wrong... it’s probably too cheap psychologically for many people... just use a decent LPS (like a Allo Shanti or lower end Uptone) or even an Anker 20Kmh battery pack. With a top end LPS, the EF doesn’t sound so good paradoxically and you really need to move to Jcat or PF etc.

 

This finding is correlated by alpha audio website. You don’t have to believe me so just buy both Jcat and EF and let us know... you might be surprised.

 

for context I have a McIntosh based setup and an Asus/Apacer/AMD 3950x (16 cores) based PC streamer with 4 LPS

[Topk]

2 hours ago, wittao said:

Hi Savalox,

 

thanks for the question:

 

“As far as availability and prices, I can share the following actual infos:
 
- USB P24 card: 300 € gross enduser price
Early bird introductory price:  gross 250 € till May 31, 2021
- USB P24 OCXO card: 490 € gross enduser price
Early bird introductory price:  gross 400 €  till May 31, 2021
 
We appreciate the loyalty of those already chosen our USB cards!
 
Best regards:
    
the Core Audio team”

 

About the  clock connectivity: 

i’ll share some pictures about the clock connection between our P24 system parts (music server - usb/spdif reclocker - dac) in the next few days, thank you for your parience.

 

The reclocker (called KARUNA P24) have 4 clocks inside:

22.5792 MHz and 24.576MHz for the audio frequencies, 24 MHz for the USB connection via XMOS. The 10 MHz OCXO inside generate and control the PLL. We made 2pcs 24 MHz clock output to chassis with miniXLR 50ohm connectors.

The reclocker can send the 24 MHz signal to the USB-card (USB P24) and the other one to the dac (DENPO P24).

Used that 3 equipments all parts are on the same PLL and works like every part have a very good OCXO clock. That lift up the level of SQ. Of course the components works in stand alone version too.

 

Comparison with high level cards (like Pink Faun, Pink Faun OCXO, Pink Faun ULTRA OCXO, JCAT Femto, JCAT USB XE, MATRIX Femto, PP V6 etc.): we listen a couple of weeks different cards and setups during the development phases. Included the cheapest 30-50USD normal PCIe USB cards too. It was necessary to know why so good or bad are some solution. Today i think the first class is the PF Ultra OCXO card. 
i didn’t can’t/want to compare our cards with these cards, that wouldn’t be a fairplay thing. I hope our customers will try them and compare and make a decision and write a review. 

Now we are in a development phase to make our flagship USB card too what use ASM chipset (the USB P24 and USB P24 OCXO use Renesas chipset, we found them a great sounding controller on the market). 
 

Thank you for your interesting.

 

Can you use external LPS with those cards?

[Topk]

1 hour ago, Nenon said:

 

That was my reference for quite some time - Pink Faun I2S with ultraOCXO. 

As the server, power supplies, etc. improve I found USB to sound better. This is still DAC dependent of course, but it has been my experience with multiple DACs now. No longer using I2S. 

Do you use USB with or without DDC like Gustard or audio Gd or denafrips? Do you use Isoregen? The reason I ask is that those are important in my experience for top sound quality (with LPS on Isoregen)

[Topk]

Pink Faun Bridge - stock clock vs. OCXO

 

I would like to report on the impact of the OCXO on the sound quality for the Pink Faun card. For context, a detailed description of my streamer and hifi system is in my profile (go to activity then audio system). I use the SPDIF version of the card but I expect the impact of the clock to be similar for the USB card.

First, I love the sound and musicality of the pink faun card. I tried the EF, Jcat Femto and Jcat XE with 5-10 different power sources (between myself and a friend). I settled on the Pink Faun with Uptone JS2 or Jcat optimo duo, so the report is based on the pink faun card powered by those. The 5V LPS has a huge and critical impact to the sound quality (i fully  agree with the prior post from Tatomek7) and the power supplies are really the heart of the audio PC. This cannot be underlined enough. All those cards need the very best LPS you can afford to develop their full potential (happy to give recommendations depending on your budget).

 

1) Stock clock

 

With the stock clock, the Pink Faun is immediately enjoyable. It has a very musical sound, the tone is very good, the instruments sound natural and realistic, there’s a little bit of natural warmth and even “romanticism” and humanity, with good dynamics and a lively sound that’s never cold or analytical. With the pink faun, you naturally focus on the music. I find that I’m not really dissecting the sound and just listen to the music instead. A very good sign in my book.

 

2) OCXO

The presentation changes and the impact of the clock is slightly different on the JS2 vs Optimo (which is a higher grade LPS than JS2 but more on that later). Overall, the OCXO brings focus. It’s a little bit like a lens that you would put in focus. Maybe the stock clock is an older lens and the OCXO a modern and sharper lens, if you take a photography analogy.

 

The instruments are more precise, more defined. You can hear much more the nuances of what the musicians are playing, the grain of the instruments, and the sound is a bit more dynamic. There’s more detail, but not in an analytical or cold way. There’s just more definition and control. Everything is tighter, and there’s a greater level of precision everywhere.
 

The more the hifi system is of a higher level, with the Jcat optimo for instance, the more the benefits of a clock where it brings more realism. The soundstage is also improved, particularly the depth. The sound is less homogeneous as well however depending on what you want in your system, you might want to rebalance the system once you insert the clock since it does bring more focus and precision. This is really system and taste dependent. For example, with the Optimo, I noticed that the clock is pretty much all upside with excellent and positive impact on the realism of the voices and instruments.

 

Overall, it’s recommended and an excellent step up. It does make you want to try and buy the ultra OCXO since this clock goes to the next level!

 

There’s a review of the pink faun cards and server on the hifi advice website too, for another report.
 

Let me know if any question, and hope this helps.

[Topk]

4 hours ago, mrkoven said:

any details on taiko usb price/release date?

Sold only to Taiko owners 

[Topk]

34 minutes ago, prinz said:

I am replacing OCXO with Ultra OCXO on my usb card.

OCXO is for sale, drop me PM if interested.

Ultra already installed and working. Didn't listened yet, but will make some brief listening within an hour or so.

 

 

Exciting!!! I envy you. Please give us a report after its burn in!

[Topk]

6 hours ago, prinz said:

O.K,

Few words of initial observation.

First of all I am kind of guy who hates spending money on audio :) I do so quite often in the pursuit of high musical experience, but I cannot say that my observations are usually in line with others. I don't care if a component costs 1EUR or 1kEUR, I try to stay neutral and judge the product mainly with price / performance ratio.

 

My roots are around DIY, so to put you in my shoes for a while:

A week or two ago I replaced ELNA cap on HDplex PSU with Mundorf Mlytic and even after 200hours of burn in I cannot say they are definitely my cup of tea. Sure, they sound linear with good bass response, but.. somehow.. It's harder for me flow and enjoy the music as with Elna's. People like to use Z-foil or tantalum resistors - while I don't. I do have a bunch of them, but I found my best all around resistor - russian MŁT :)

rarely, at least in my case - swapping components brings only the improvement, usually there are pros and cons, and as an another example of my preference and approach - after I red what one of our colleagues wrote about Taiko ATX - I decided not to proceed with the pre-order, as I am afraid it will make my gear sound too open and too detailed.

 

 

OK. To the point:

From what I remember OCXO (over stock TCXO) in my system improved resolution, dynamics, details retrieval. The overall improvement can be described like moving from SD into HD video playback.

With ULTRA I was expecting a step up in the same categories, which honestly made me also worried a bit as my intention is not to use my audio system like doctors use Roentgen's rays :)

 

I was really surprised to hear that ULTRA sounds: warmer, heavier, more like analog tape, with high 'foot tapping' factor, more organic, less digital, Little bit smoother, maybe even laid back a little (VS forward presentation of OCXO).

At this moment in time (so quite early) I need to say that Ultra has different sound signature than OCXO.

Maybe it improves OCXO strong points by ~20% (details, resolution etc) but whats even more noticeable - it shifts the type of presentation. OCXO was like LCD or LED, while Ultra OCXO is like Plasma TV :)

(if you know what I mean).

Let us know what are your thoughts in a little while after burn in (those clocks need a few days and stay on 24/7 during this period) but this is very valuable and fascinating indeed and correlate with Christian Puunter’s review on the hifi advice website. This is my type of sound. Must resist!!! :-))

[Topk]

2 hours ago, Tatomek7 said:

It will be great.

 

JCat XE Card needed, I think 4 days 24/7 play to start to sound correctly and the change was sharp, just after four days it was ready.

 

Nevertheless I'm still astonished how good Femto USB card sounds with Jcat Optimo LPS. Following your description of Ultra PF Card these two can be a dream team :)

Optimo is great indeed, you need a good system to really hear its potential. It’s relaxed in a good way. No harshness or digititus for sure. Very good blackness. Very controlled. It has its distinct sound signature, tone and flavor so it’s always best to try if you can. Definitely a great product overall and high quality through and through.
 

All those cards crave for good power. I think Nenon had to go up to custom SR7 dual regulation to be fully satisfied with the sound for his Jcat XE and PF ultra OCXO! At a more reasonable price, JS2 and optimo are great choices. And the stock optimo cables are really excellent (the Belden/Oyaide on the JS2 are barely ok). Maybe I’ll do a JS2 vs optimo review later but both are good.

[Topk]

2 hours ago, Dev said:

 

I am curious in this comparison. have you gotten a chance yet ?

So the JS2 and Optimo have been tested and compared in 2 systems. I use with Jcat Femto Net and pink faun. My friend uses Jcat XE Net and USB. 
 

1) JS2: lively, exciting, lots of realism, a sensation of being there, powerful, great tone, a sense of rightness, warm. Full of life. Need to have the right power cable and DC cables - particularly the DC cables can break the sound - since the JS2 is very reactive. In my system, I like the JS2 a lot but only with the right combination of DC cables. And that’s because it’s very musical. JS2 has a lot of charm. No question on this front. This is for the music lover and really a no brainer at the price for your audio card. Works very very well with pink faun and Jcat Femto. Slightly underpowered in my opinion for Jcat XE.

2) Optimo: everything top quality. Really excellent cables and connectors, therefore more plug n play than JS2. Lots of calmness to the sound, zero harshness, very neutral but not cold or analytical, very high sense of relaxation, very controlled in all frequencies. There is in my opinion maybe a little color or sheen to the sound, very subtle and very hard to describe which decreases to some extent after burn in (need 200-300 hours, makes a very big difference maybe plus 40% better sound after 3-5 days). Be patient. It’s much, much more neutral sounding than the JS2, less “wild” (JS2 is wilder, more released, and I say that in a good way). Optimo more intellectual maybe. The better the level of the system, the more the optimo will shine. Also special synergy with Jcat XE since it was designed for those cards. However, Optimo is less inherently “colorful” than JS2. 

My friend prefers the optimo to the JS2 by a significant margin which might be in part due to synergy with his 2 x Jcat XEs. 
 

I prefer the JS2 in my system because it is more vivid and engaging, and I love the very realistic tone of the JS2 and its musicality. Again, I have pink faun so it’s not apples to apples.
 

It’s highly subjective, system, and taste dependent at that point. 2 good products for sure.

[Topk]

1 hour ago, Dev said:

 

I agree that DC cables can make or break the sound. I have a JS2 sitting around but I haven't tried powering the JCAT XE with it yet. I am curious what DC cable worked for you ?

 

 

 

Not sure I understand. JS2 slightly underpowered for JCAT XE ? That psu can crank 12v@7A continuous.  

I use 2 different DC cables, one for the Jcat Femto Net and one for the Pink Faun. They are custom made by a friend. They are much better than the Belden/Oyaide (while having a balanced sound, those leave 30-50% of the sound quality on the table). I think mine are silver coated copper or tinned copper, I’m not sure but there’s a coating on at least one of the DC cables. I also tried at least 2 or 3 different silver DC cables, maybe 2 or 3  more in different types of copper, and I prefer copper in the end. The Optimo DC cables are top performance and don’t need to be changed. Not sure what they are made of.

 

In terms of being “underpowered”, I believe both JS2 and Optimo have 100VA transformers and both are well above specifications of what the Jcat XE needs in terms of amperage, so it’s not what is on paper. The JS2 has a r core and the Optimo has a Toroid which looks like it’s custom from Toroidy in Poland. That can explain partially the difference in sound signature. 
 

What I meant by “underpowered” is that when you put the JS2 to feed the XE USB, you can hear than the XE needs more to fully develop its sound. In contrast, the Optimo is perfectly suited for the XE. If you go to YouTube and the “pursuit of perfect system” channel, the reviewer has the same finding, ie you really need good power to feed the Jcat XE USB to release its full potential. Similar finding with Nenon: he used SR7 dual regulation (not single regulation) on his Jcat Femto to get the best sound, if i recall correctly. That mirrors my experience on the need for good power. It’s not a coincidence in my opinion that Jcat released Initio and Optimo power supplies along with the XEs. In contrast, Pink Faun is much less demanding in terms of power supply and is totally fine with the JS2 and probably many others.

[Topk]

30 minutes ago, Dev said:

The JCAT XE requires 5V/1.5A. The Optimo is maxed out at 3A and JS2 is guaranteed at 5A continuos at any output setting. I can take that they will sound different, maybe the Optimo will sound better with JCAT XE but don't think it will be underpowered with JS2. Something isn't adding up here....

It’s just terminology. What I meant by “underpowered” is subjective listening, not technical specifications which they both meet easily. So yes I meant than the Optimo sounds better than JS2 on XE. Underpowered means the sound is not full, you can clearly tell there’s some hollowness remaining. In the Naim world, it’s similar to the sound quality progression on a Naim source or preamp between Flatcap, Hicap and Supercap. While they all meet specs, the flatcap gives a more hollow sound that the Supercap, and many other sonic attributes develop in a big way with better power. The XE is pretty demanding on which power supply to use to release its full potential.
 

Optimo is just higher caliber overall than JS2, as it should since it’s more expensive, but it doesn’t mean it’s always going to be the best in your own system since they both have a different sound signature, combined with system synergies, the level of your system, personal preferences… are all very important too.

[Topk]

2 hours ago, mesonto said:

Someone please take this seriously. I am thinking of spending a few thousand to recreate my present Audirvana music streamer which as of now resides on a stripped down version of Win10 (only runs a few services and Audirvana), in a fanless case with an external audio grade power supply.

 

Saying this...

 

If I was to build another newer Windows PC to serve as my new FLAC and DSF server based on an ITX motherboard, and I output my files directly to my DAC which has a jitter reducer/master clock/etc., inside of it already, why would I need this special USB card as part of my new computer music server? Especially since the USB data is already error corrected and buffered. 

 

Just don't want to spend my money for a small percentage sound quality return.

 

However if one of these $500 cards would make such a difference I am willing to move forward with the many purchases I would need to create a new music streamer.

Because it sounds much much better. Everybody tried.
 

USB: budget is not $500 in most cases because you need good LPS. You can use either Jcat USB but you need a really good power supply (about $1000+) or Pink Faun USB. Even better: add Isoregen. Even better: add LPS on Isoregen. Even better: add DDC converter like Audio GD DI20. Even better: add good quality cables. Just try for yourself, and hear for yourself…

$500 USB budget? El Fidelity USB card with Allo Shanti LPS or Keces P3.
 

Another option: skip USB entirely and go with Pink Faun SPDIF or I2S. With good LPS. That’s my personal choice. Upgrade: add ultra OCXO clock (but $$$)…