Popular Post firedog Posted May 7, 2019 Popular Post Share Posted May 7, 2019 4 hours ago, ARQuint said: And is it possible for an audio magazine to have anything not-negative to say about MQA without every word from every writer in that magazine being deemed worthless? Sure. And I certainly haven't said everything in TAS or SP is worthless. But when you write gushing articles favorably comparing MQA as a scientific revolution to Copernicus, you are asking for it, as it were. And the repeated gushing reviews of pretty much everything that's gotten the MQA treatment just aren't credible. Especially when most of us outside of the press don't hear that constant SQ improvement that many magazine writers seem to hear every time they queue up an MQA track. There are numerouis writers who seem never to have heard an MQA track that isn't a dramatic improvement. That leads to lots of skepticism about everything else they write, and by extension doubts about the publication that publishes their revivews. Samuel T Cogley, esldude, maxijazz and 6 others 6 3 Main listening (small home office): Main setup: Surge protector +>Isol-8 Mini sub Axis Power Strip/Isolation>QuietPC Low Noise Server>Roon (Audiolense DRC)>Stack Audio Link II>Kii Control>Kii Three (on their own electric circuit) >GIK Room Treatments. Secondary Path: Server with Audiolense RC>RPi4 or analog>Cayin iDAC6 MKII (tube mode) (XLR)>Kii Three . Bedroom: SBTouch to Cambridge Soundworks Desktop Setup. Living Room/Kitchen: Ropieee (RPi3b+ with touchscreen) + Schiit Modi3E to a pair of Morel Hogtalare. All absolute statements about audio are false Link to comment
Popular Post firedog Posted May 7, 2019 Popular Post Share Posted May 7, 2019 1 hour ago, ARQuint said: No, honestly, Samuel, I don't have horse in this race. The only time I've had MQA playback in my own system is when I've had gear to review with that capacity. I've never met Bob Stuart or corresponded with him and I've never owned a Meridian component. But, like most enthusiasts, I've followed the trajectory of Stuart's career over the years and have found much to admire. As you know, my issue is civility. With that in mind, there is another possibility other than "reverence" or "sycophancy"—and that's respect. Andrew I can still respect his PAST achievements. In the present day world he's veered into hucksterism and sorry, lying- while promoting MQA. I'm not going to pretty it up and use a euphemism. I don't know the guy, so other than impugning his honesty - which I feel is fully justified - I'm not going to make other personal comments about him. But his past achievements don't excuse his present behavior. The opposite is actually true- the respect he has in the audio world makes it incumbent upon him not to use that respect to exploit innocent consumers who don't know how to evaluate his "techy" statements. Teresa, sphinxsix, crenca and 8 others 6 4 1 Main listening (small home office): Main setup: Surge protector +>Isol-8 Mini sub Axis Power Strip/Isolation>QuietPC Low Noise Server>Roon (Audiolense DRC)>Stack Audio Link II>Kii Control>Kii Three (on their own electric circuit) >GIK Room Treatments. Secondary Path: Server with Audiolense RC>RPi4 or analog>Cayin iDAC6 MKII (tube mode) (XLR)>Kii Three . Bedroom: SBTouch to Cambridge Soundworks Desktop Setup. Living Room/Kitchen: Ropieee (RPi3b+ with touchscreen) + Schiit Modi3E to a pair of Morel Hogtalare. All absolute statements about audio are false Link to comment
Popular Post Ralf11 Posted May 7, 2019 Popular Post Share Posted May 7, 2019 14 hours ago, ARQuint said: The MQA-related threads at Audiophile Style remain an invaluable repository of informed opinion. Mr. Nuts (my apologies if it's Dr. Nuts) leaves me grasping for words, such is my awestruck admiration. In the context of his thoughtful posting above, we can contrast the engineering qualifications and relevant professional experience of two industry giants and confidently judge the utility of what each has to say. We are truly blessed to have so many beacons of truth selflessly offering their expertise on AS forums as, miraculously, these considered and authoritative opinions are not routinely celebrated elsewhere. Bob Stuart Metal Nuts Education Bachelor's degree in electrical engineering and acoustics ? Masters degree in Operations Research Design/Development Career Highlights First audiophile CD player (1983) ? First DSP-powered loudspeaker (1990) First digital surround processor (1994) Meridian Lossless Packing (2000) MQA (2014) Professional Awards AES Life Fellow ? CEDIA Lifetime Achievement Award (2015) Actual name J. Robert ("Bob") Stuart ? * * Metal Nuts may not be his real name This post just reeks of civility, Mr. SQuint. or is it Dr. SQuint? askat1988, crenca, lucretius and 3 others 1 1 4 Link to comment
christopher3393 Posted May 7, 2019 Share Posted May 7, 2019 1 hour ago, Ralf11 said: This post just reeks of civility, Mr. SQuint. or is it Dr. SQuint? "...and suddenly Ralf became humorless, except for a bit of snide sarcasm ..." Oh, Muffie. 🙄 MikeyFresh, askat1988, Ralf11 and 1 other 4 Link to comment
Popular Post crenca Posted May 7, 2019 Popular Post Share Posted May 7, 2019 The anti-consumer, technically ignorant, elitist, and sycophant stance that trade publication writers have has known causes and motivations that are understood if not widely known/acknowledged by audiophiles. When you don't know a bit from a byte or a volt from an amp your bound to be rely on and be falsely impressed by not only reliable engineers/manufacturers, but charltans like Bob S because you simply don't have the skills and attitude to tell the difference Can someone speak to the AES however. Why is Bob S a member of the current working group around "Hi Res" for example? Do they not police their own, or is AES simply a vehicle for yet-more industry promotion and back slapping? edit: In other words, does the AES have integrity, or is its purpose to serve its members and give them "awards" and "accomplishments" which help them $sell$ stuff? Is Bob S an aberration, or is it full of such charletons? Ralf11, Ishmael Slapowitz, Shadders and 2 others 2 1 2 Hey MQA, if it is not all $voodoo$, show us the math! Link to comment
Popular Post mansr Posted May 7, 2019 Popular Post Share Posted May 7, 2019 58 minutes ago, crenca said: Can someone speak to the AES however. Why is Bob S a member of the current working group around "Hi Res" for example? Do they not police their own, or is AES simply a vehicle for yet-more industry promotion and back slapping? edit: In other words, does the AES have integrity, or is its purpose to serve its members and give them "awards" and "accomplishments" which help them $sell$ stuff? Is Bob S an aberration, or is it full of such charletons? I think you've figured it out. crenca, Samuel T Cogley and MikeyFresh 2 1 Link to comment
Popular Post Kal Rubinson Posted May 7, 2019 Popular Post Share Posted May 7, 2019 6 hours ago, firedog said: We are actually agreeing. If you play back MQA with the MQA filters engaged, the Mytek DACs continue using the MQA filters on all PCM once they are engaged - you have to manually switch out of MQA filtering to make them stop. Yes and that is significant. When I did my first trials with multichannel MQA, I was unaware of this and, under those circumstances, I grudgingly admitted that MQA had something of value. When I learned of this issue, I repeated my trials and, with some annoyance and considerable effort, changed the filters for the comparison so that the non-MQA tracks actually used the appropriate filters that I had originally thought were in use. I have not bothered with playing MQA intentionally since then. Hugo9000, Kyhl, Teresa and 6 others 2 7 Kal Rubinson Senior Contributing Editor, Stereophile Link to comment
Popular Post mansr Posted May 7, 2019 Popular Post Share Posted May 7, 2019 19 minutes ago, Kal Rubinson said: When I did my first trials with multichannel MQA, There's multi-channel MQA? Ishmael Slapowitz and crenca 1 1 Link to comment
Popular Post crenca Posted May 7, 2019 Popular Post Share Posted May 7, 2019 8 minutes ago, mansr said: There's multi-channel MQA? Sure why not, I mean MQA even saves the oceans.... MikeyFresh and lucretius 2 Hey MQA, if it is not all $voodoo$, show us the math! Link to comment
Ishmael Slapowitz Posted May 7, 2019 Share Posted May 7, 2019 42 minutes ago, mansr said: There's multi-channel MQA? MQA vinyl, MQA CDs, and soon, MQA cassettes, the revival of the MiniDisc format with MQA encoding, and in development MQA FM radio. 🤣 Link to comment
Ralf11 Posted May 7, 2019 Share Posted May 7, 2019 Good Lord! I hope they don't obsolete my cassette collection! Link to comment
Popular Post Kal Rubinson Posted May 7, 2019 Popular Post Share Posted May 7, 2019 1 hour ago, mansr said: There's multi-channel MQA? Not loose in the wild. Because of my interest in multichannel, I asked Bob Stuart whether MQA would support it (and also I asked about EQ). He said that both would be coming in the future. He also sent me a selection of multichannel MQA files, many of which were familiar to me. These were the subject of my listening tests. Sonicularity and crenca 1 1 Kal Rubinson Senior Contributing Editor, Stereophile Link to comment
asdf1000 Posted May 7, 2019 Share Posted May 7, 2019 8 hours ago, firedog said: We are actually agreeing. If you play back MQA with the MQA filters engaged, the Mytek DACs continue using the MQA filters on all PCM once they are engaged - you have to manually switch out of MQA filtering to make them stop. That's what I'm referring to. Exception is DSD which uses entirely different filters from PCM . Not positive about the Pro-Ject and the PSA, but I'd be surprised if they are different. Noted, just wanted to mention there are more than 2 manufacturers. You said: “But you are lucky that dCS is one of only 2 manufacturers that has implemented MQA so that only MQA files - and not other PCM files - are given the MQA filtering treatment.“ I’m positive about the PSA and Pro-Ject S2 DACs.. and there are probably others that I can’t think of. Link to comment
crenca Posted May 7, 2019 Share Posted May 7, 2019 28 minutes ago, Em2016 said: I’m positive about the PSA and Pro-Ject S2 DACs.. and there are probably others that I can’t think of. How are you positive? I don't know about Pro-Ject, but is not PSA's MQA implementation buried in their USB controller - how would anyone know how it is behaving vis-a-vis MQA filtering? honest question... Hey MQA, if it is not all $voodoo$, show us the math! Link to comment
Albrecht Posted May 8, 2019 Share Posted May 8, 2019 50 minutes ago, Kal Rubinson said: Not loose in the wild. Because of my interest in multichannel, I asked Bob Stuart whether MQA would support it (and also I asked about EQ). He said that both would be coming in the future. He also sent me a selection of multichannel MQA files, many of which were familiar to me. These were the subject of my listening tests. (Sadly) It appears as though there's a future for MQA: at least in Bob Stuart's mind. Historically, - audiophiles, (or audiophile manufacturers), don't learn from musicians. If they did, - the cheap reverb tank that is MQA won't last long. Link to comment
esldude Posted May 8, 2019 Share Posted May 8, 2019 11 minutes ago, crenca said: How are you positive? I don't know about Pro-Ject, but is not PSA's MQA implementation buried in their USB controller - how would anyone know how it is behaving vis-a-vis MQA filtering? honest question... Its not 100% clear, but the Stereophile testing would make you think you do have control of the filtering. They claim hardware implementation of MQA so I'm not sure that means it is buried in the USB controller, though MQA is only available via USB. https://www.stereophile.com/content/pro-ject-pre-box-s2-digital-da-headphone-amplifier-measurements And always keep in mind: Cognitive biases, like seeing optical illusions are a sign of a normally functioning brain. We all have them, it’s nothing to be ashamed about, but it is something that affects our objective evaluation of reality. Link to comment
asdf1000 Posted May 8, 2019 Share Posted May 8, 2019 1 hour ago, crenca said: How are you positive? I don't know about Pro-Ject, but is not PSA's MQA implementation buried in their USB controller - how would anyone know how it is behaving vis-a-vis MQA filtering? honest question... The Pro-Ject is easy - Jussi of HQPlayer has one... I'm sure you know his work in the technical analysis of MQA and he can confirm... but I've already confirmed with him. Non-MQA stuff doesn't get the MQA treatment. The PS Audio DirectStream is also easy, even just using logic... If there was no way to disable MQA for non-MQA content, there would be no reason for Ted Smith to be affiliated with his DirecStream DAC... he has commented on the PSA forum a long time ago and it was discussed here a long time ago... there was no way he was letting any MQA decoding/rendering code get into his FPGA... as I mentioned it's their network bridge that does the MQA decoding... they sent a unit to Bob to do impulse response measurements and whatever else they do. But Ted wasn't letting any MQA decoding/rendering code onto his FPGA. But Paul and Ted already confirmed non-MQA content is not touched by MQA code... This was all discussed a long time ago already. There's no breaking news here... crenca 1 Link to comment
asdf1000 Posted May 8, 2019 Share Posted May 8, 2019 With the DirectStream DAC it's easily verified by any owner by playing Ted Smith's bit perfect test files to the network bridge... You can also add EMM Labs DV2 DAC to the list also... non-MQA content is not given MQA treatment... Ed Meitner wouldn't let that happen.. You can add iFi Pro iDSD to the list also... https://www.head-fi.org/threads/ifi-audio-pro-idsd-official-new-firmware-mqa-and-more.869144/page-47#post-14593415 So I think we're up to 6 manufacturers already... my only point was it's more than 2 manufacturers... crenca 1 Link to comment
firedog Posted May 8, 2019 Share Posted May 8, 2019 4 hours ago, Em2016 said: With the DirectStream DAC it's easily verified by any owner by playing Ted Smith's bit perfect test files to the network bridge... You can also add EMM Labs DV2 DAC to the list also... non-MQA content is not given MQA treatment... Ed Meitner wouldn't let that happen.. You can add iFi Pro iDSD to the list also... https://www.head-fi.org/threads/ifi-audio-pro-idsd-official-new-firmware-mqa-and-more.869144/page-47#post-14593415 So I think we're up to 6 manufacturers already... my only point was it's more than 2 manufacturers... The two I mentioned included the iPro. It is the only one in the iFi line with that type of MQA setup. But still, we are talking about maybe 6 actual DACs. And I'm still skeptical about the Pro-Ject. The other manufacturers who have implemented it have done so only on high end products, and both dCS and iFi said the process was very time consuming and expensive in terms of SW development hours. (this probably not true for PSA as the bridge is a different situation). I find it hard to believe the same type of resources were invested that little inexpensive DAC from Pro-Ject. Main listening (small home office): Main setup: Surge protector +>Isol-8 Mini sub Axis Power Strip/Isolation>QuietPC Low Noise Server>Roon (Audiolense DRC)>Stack Audio Link II>Kii Control>Kii Three (on their own electric circuit) >GIK Room Treatments. Secondary Path: Server with Audiolense RC>RPi4 or analog>Cayin iDAC6 MKII (tube mode) (XLR)>Kii Three . Bedroom: SBTouch to Cambridge Soundworks Desktop Setup. Living Room/Kitchen: Ropieee (RPi3b+ with touchscreen) + Schiit Modi3E to a pair of Morel Hogtalare. All absolute statements about audio are false Link to comment
asdf1000 Posted May 8, 2019 Share Posted May 8, 2019 12 minutes ago, firedog said: And I'm still skeptical about the Pro-Ject. Not only does one of the key people involved in the MQA Technical Analysis have this DAC himself (Jussi)... but you can check Stereophile's measurements... and compare with their Brooklyn DAC measurements... it's extremely obvious from the measurements when MQA is affecting non-MQA test files... Link to comment
asdf1000 Posted May 8, 2019 Share Posted May 8, 2019 54 minutes ago, firedog said: . I find it hard to believe the same type of resources were invested that little inexpensive DAC from Pro-Ject. And don't be fooled by the price tag of this inexpensive DAC either... per JA's measurements, it's measures close to state of the art... MQA fully aside, there is very competent Engineering in this DAC for very good price... And fortunately, the MQA filter has no effect on non-MQA files with this DAC, per JA's measurements... Link to comment
jparvio Posted May 8, 2019 Share Posted May 8, 2019 1 hour ago, Em2016 said: And don't be fooled by the price tag of this inexpensive DAC either... per JA's measurements, it's measures close to state of the art... MQA fully aside, there is very competent Engineering in this DAC for very good price... And fortunately, the MQA filter has no effect on non-MQA files with this DAC, per JA's measurements... Are You suggesting that this little overachiever is putting a show against the known heavyweights like dcs, totaldac, MSB and alike..? Soundwise that is. If so, I beg to disagree. Near SOTA digital performance is not the same as saying it sounds as good. In audio "nearly as good" can mean all the difference in the World. All in all it is lovely design and well worth the money. Just saying. Jussi Arvio Contributing Editor Hifimaailma Magazine Link to comment
asdf1000 Posted May 8, 2019 Share Posted May 8, 2019 15 minutes ago, jparvio said: Are You suggesting that this little overachiever is putting a show against the known heavyweights like dcs, totaldac, MSB and alike..? Soundwise that is. If so, I beg to disagree. Ah, gotta love the internet. Not sure what I said that makes you think this... Context is very important. Have a look at what I have quoted above - I was only replying to very specific comments (which I quoted above), like "And I'm still skeptical about the Pro-Ject." and "I find it hard to believe the same type of resources were invested that little inexpensive DAC from Pro-Ject." Price is not always the best indicator of measured performance. And note I only commented on measured performance... I never commented about sound quality... (subjective performance). JA's measured performance is what is is and he said (his words, not mine...) it measures almost state of the art... that's all I have quoted. I'm a little more careful than to go down the path you thought I went 😉 Link to comment
mansr Posted May 8, 2019 Share Posted May 8, 2019 10 hours ago, Kal Rubinson said: Not loose in the wild. Because of my interest in multichannel, I asked Bob Stuart whether MQA would support it (and also I asked about EQ). He said that both would be coming in the future. He also sent me a selection of multichannel MQA files, many of which were familiar to me. These were the subject of my listening tests. What DAC supports such files? Link to comment
mansr Posted May 8, 2019 Share Posted May 8, 2019 9 hours ago, esldude said: Its not 100% clear, but the Stereophile testing would make you think you do have control of the filtering. They claim hardware implementation of MQA so I'm not sure that means it is buried in the USB controller, though MQA is only available via USB. If MQA is only supported over USB, it usually means the decoder is done on an XMOS USB chip. esldude 1 Link to comment
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