Article: LessLoss Echo’s End Reference DAC Full Review

[Louis Motek - LessLoss]

On 4/26/2019 at 10:04 PM, Nsummy said:

 

Not a chance.  And if it did influence it, it would be in a negative way.  Think about all of the high precision laboratory equipment, medical devices, quantum computers, space shuttle electronics, etc. that are not encapsulated in a wooden box.   Its fine if someone wants to make a product like this and jack up the price;  I get it, there is a level of craftsmanship here.  But to say the wooden box is there because of performance reasons is absurd.

 

Panzerholz (Tankwood) is used as the base of the core chassis of F1 cars. Here's a picture of one turned over:

 

 

We did not choose this material for eye candy. We chose it for its performance. 

 

We carried out a calibrated studio comparison of Panzerholz and aluminum and published the results here:

 

https://www.lessloss.com/page.html?id=80

 

On that page you can find audio examples which you can download yourself and run your own comparison. The difference is enormous. 

 

Any current running through any conductor will create some amount of molecular movement. Current is defined as the flow of charged particles. If it did not have any friction it would also not generate any vibration. We are talking not only about miniscule amounts; surely everybody has heard a transformer buzz with their ears directly. Just how that buzz is dealt with through the design of the enclosure will also influence the final results of the audio performance.

 

Here is another set of comparisons, with audio and video examples:

 

https://www.lessloss.com/video_demonstration_of_high_performance_audio.html

 

If the build of an enclosure had no effect whatsoever on the resulting sound, nobody would be found tweaking these things. 

 

Returning to the F1 application, you can find more Panzerholz inside the cars surrounding the car's timing electronics. Here is a sliced open F1 car. At around 3:30 you can clearly see the Panzerholz encapsulated onboard electronics:

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F9WVtZHYjds

 

 

[BrokeLinuxPhile]

That's an ancient F1 photo, did not recognize it at first.  Martin Brundle, 1996.  Was under the impression that modern F1 is 100% carbon chassis now?

 

Here's a different shot, unfortunately the panzerholz did not hold up so well.  First shot shows the panel beginning to crack in half.

 

[BrokeLinuxPhile]

Actually, here is a pretty recent pic, Alonso's 2016 crash in Melbourne w/ Gutierrez:

 

 

[Ralf11]

Why not Lignostone?

[mansr]

6 hours ago, Louis Motek - LessLoss said:

Panzerholz (Tankwood) is used as the base of the core chassis of F1 cars.

Supposing that's true (which I'm not going to take your word for), what is the relevance for a DAC enclosure?

[STC]

1 hour ago, mansr said:

Supposing that's true (which I'm not going to take your word for), what is the relevance for a DAC enclosure?

 

Some say it produces organic sound. Seen old amps made of wood too. 

[mansr]

Just now, STC said:

Some say it produces organic sound.

In the F1 car?

 

Just now, STC said:

Seen old amps made of wood too. 

There's nothing wrong with using wood for aesthetic reasons.

[STC]

1 minute ago, mansr said:

In the F1 car?

 

Who knows? Probably, the are trying to be green as much as possible. 

[Jud]

In an F1 car the material used is a similar one called Jabroc. Its function is as a telltale - if it's too worn at the end of the race, the driver has had an unfair aero advantage (car too low to the ground) and is penalized.  You want something reasonably light with flexibility that can be adjusted to work OK with the chassis that will wear away on contact with the racetrack. So any impression that "This stuff is so tough they make F1 cars from it!" is a bit of an exaggeration.

 

They've actually included titanium strips the last few years to make spectacular-looking sparks when there's contact between the telltale strip and the track.

[mansr]

I want a DAC with a V8 engine.

[The Computer Audiophile]

14 minutes ago, Jud said:

They've actually included titanium strips the last few years to make spectacular-looking sparks when there's contact between the telltale strip and the track.

I watched this series and couldn't figure out what was with all the sparks. Now I know. Thanks Jud.

 

 

[lmitche]

The observation that Panzerholtz is a great anti-vibration material is not limited to the LessLoss company. I am currently testing three Panzerholtz anti-vibration platforms from a single vendor and will post results in the next few weeks.

[Jud]

When I built a DAC I used a wood chassis to avoid internal reflections. Made no measurements of different chassis materials of course. But I'll be interested to see/hear what Louis has posted upthread about different chassis materials.

[BrokeLinuxPhile]

Most F1 fans started complaining about the audible/visual experience when attending races, after rule changes a few years back.  Engines went hybrid, and wasn't as exciting as they went past spectators in a pack.  That's 75% of the fun of attending a race, IMO.  Sparks make a pretty compromise.  It's just a skid plate, all cars have them.  You can see from the photos the panel is just bolted onto the bottom of the chassis.  Cheaper to replace a bolt on panel than re-mold a carbon chassis pan.

 

Wood is actually a pretty good dielectric, it won't compress during assembly and contains a good % of air.  It's a pretty fast dielectric like cotton, so the key is thickness for efficacy.  A log cabin home would probably work great keeping out RF compared to gypsum/frame construction.

[Ralf11]

does a device (here, a DAC) benefit from a dielectric as the case??

 

think about how far the traces/wires are from the case

[Madra]

4 hours ago, lmitche said:

The observation that Panzerholtz is a great anti-vibration material is not limited to the LessLoss company. I am currently testing three Panzerholtz anti-vibration platforms from a single vendor and will post results in the next few weeks.

Clearaudio have been using Panzerholtz in their turntables for quite some time. 

[Ralf11]

uses in turntables, F1 cars, and ski edges are not relevant

 

the question is - what does it do for a DAC??

 

looks are fine; but the manf. should come up with some measurements, listening tests, or a least a coherent design reason - their web site is not convincing

[The Computer Audiophile]

I love the looks and the idea of Panzerholtz. If LessLoss has another reason for using it that would be even better. 

[Ralf11]

yes, it is pretty - not 20k pretty tho

 

is it prettier than Lignostone?  or Bubinga?  or Myrtle wood?

 

I am also partial to the color scheme of Accuphase gear, but got stuck with the crummy Audio Research Corp. light green only ghetto-look...

[DuckToller]

36 minutes ago, Ralf11 said:

looks are fine; but the manf. should come up with some measurements, listening tests, or a least a coherent design reason - their web site is not convincing

Ralf,

could you please elaborate you critics of the provided links by the manufacturer (post #151).
I'd like to understand, why this is not convincing (enough) for you and what would be a common ground or a suitable information you would accept in a more positive manner? 
I am aware that "pseudo science" is often used for marketing purposes, therefore I'd find a clear formulated critic important, assuming that you are not convinced from the manufactures website. And it's something to learn for the readers, including me.
Cheers from France, Tom
 

[Madra]

58 minutes ago, Ralf11 said:

uses in turntables, F1 cars, and ski edges are not relevant

 

the question is - what does it do for a DAC??

 

l

I was referring to its' anti-vibration properties. Some manufacturers go to great length to treat vibration using special footers, enclosures carved from solid aluminum blocks..... They claim that it affects the performance. You may obviously disagree.

[Superdad]

4 hours ago, BrokeLinuxPhile said:

Wood is actually a pretty good dielectric, it won't compress during assembly and contains a good % of air.  It's a pretty fast dielectric like cotton, so the key is thickness for efficacy.  A log cabin home would probably work great keeping out RF compared to gypsum/frame construction.

 

You seem to be confusing dielectric properties with electromagnetic shielding.  They are completely different things! 

 

Unless you laminate some metal foil in between the plys, wood is not going to act as much of a shied.

[mansr]

5 hours ago, BrokeLinuxPhile said:

A log cabin home would probably work great keeping out RF compared to gypsum/frame construction.

Mobile phones work fine in my log cabin.

[mansr]

9 minutes ago, Madra said:

I was referring to its' anti-vibration properties. Some manufacturers go to great length to treat vibration using special footers, enclosures carved from solid aluminum blocks..... They claim that it affects the performance. You may obviously disagree.

Vibration properties matter for speakers, turntables, and anything with tubes in it. This DAC fall in neither of those categories.

[Superdad]

10 minutes ago, mansr said:

Vibration properties matter for speakers, turntables, and anything with tubes in it. This DAC fall in neither of those categories.

 

Well there is something (subtle) to be said for reducing vibration on clock oscillators.  Putting putty on DAC audio clocks is not a bad cheap tweak.