Article: LessLoss Echo’s End Reference DAC Full Review

[Danny Kaey]

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[Danny Kaey]

16 minutes ago, The Computer Audiophile said:

I'm not sure how this DAC escaped me, but I'm glad to read about it here. The craftsmanship looks amazing. 

 

it's positively first rate and at that, so markedly different from anything else on the market. A genuine gem if it were!

[Danny Kaey]

2 hours ago, Superdad said:

Just FYI—as it is not mentioned in the review:

The LessLoss DACs are based on this Soekris ladder DAC DIY module:

http://www.soekris.dk/dam1021.html

 

 

That’s absolutely correct - duckduckgo-ing the interwebs, you’ll find that pointed out in other reviews. Then again, I wasn’t reviewing the Soekris DAC DIY module. My question is simply this: so what? I can buy Sabre and TI chips all day long and won’t be able to make a box sound anywhere near as good as proper digital gurus using the same parts. This DAC’s magic lies in the overall execution leveraging pre-fabed modules. Nothing wrong with that. If LL want to charge ten times the asking price for the finished product, let them. The market will decide if it’s saleable or not. 

 

😎

 

[Danny Kaey]

6 hours ago, Axial said:

It's a very nice enclosure, I like it. I see some good care here...in&out. 

Thank you for the cool review, Mr. Danny.

 

Thank you Sir, much appreciated!

[Danny Kaey]

1 hour ago, AudioDoctor said:

$314.89 x2 = $629.78 for the two DAC boards

 

$19,628.00 - $629.78 = $18,998.22 left over for the rest of the parts and the engineering, custom programming they say they did, etc...

 

Basically, 19K for the rest of it. Is it worth that much?

 

Mind you, this math works pretty much across the board on everything else made by everyone else. Magico drivers, $300; final price $78,000. So is the extra $77,700 worth it?

[Danny Kaey]

1 hour ago, Superdad said:

 

Must have either been their choice to limit it or they are using an early version of the Soekris firmware.  But they are the same board.  The pictures don't lie.

 

That’s a great question and I don’t know the answer to it, nor do I frankly care. The DAC is fabulous and LL Implantation of the final product is terrific.

[Danny Kaey]

2 hours ago, esldude said:

Wow! What's a pretty face (box) worth?

 

Well let’s see. Go find a supplier of genuine Panzerholz, have them give you a quote for a case the size of this DAC. Once you have that number, add another zero to it, because by the time you actually have the chassis you want, you’ll probably go through 20 revisions. Then, once you took out a second mortgage on your home, carefully source all the other parts, because this isn’t a review of the Soekris DAC modules. Once you have all those parts, the pretty box and DAC modules, find an engineer who will put it all together for you. Finally, when you’re done, shoot me an email and send one for review and let’s see what you put together.

 

Is that fair enough?

 

PS: of course, you don’t have to go for the Reference edition either; I bet the Original Echo’s End for $5342 sounds great too... 

 

😎

[Danny Kaey]

37 minutes ago, Superdad said:

 

To be clear, I was not trying to take anything away from the product or your assessment and enjoyment of it. 

 

However, my personal style is one of greater plain-speak and honesty about the technology used.  One ought not have to go hunting on the web to discover the origin of the entire heart of the product.  What got me curious in the first place is their quote about concern for jitter--yet all we can see on the DAC board is a $2 clock for the FPGA (in the Soekris design the FPGA synthesizes the audio clocks).

I also go numb when I read vacuous marketing catchwords like "Firewall 64X modules" and see all the circuits hidden with plexiglas (carbon fiber?) shrouds.  

 

But as you say, if it sounds good, who cares?  

 

Agreed. I get your numbness, believe me, I have my own numbness for most of this sort of stuff... that said, Louis - LessLoss - is in my view legit and have built enough street cred over the past 15 years that I take their word for it. You really ought to try their cables - this new C-MARC strand they developed is quite special and priced on the very low end of where you would expect it if another name was inscribed on it.

[Danny Kaey]

11 minutes ago, esldude said:

Other than the unusual case material, and the price what is so unlike any other product?  

 

C’mon, you can say the same about every product ever made and reviewed, here or elsewhere... 

[Danny Kaey]

1 hour ago, JoeWhip said:

Can’t say I am a big fan of where the replies to this review have gone so I will try to steer it back to the sound of the DAC as described by Danny. I am more concerned by the description that the DAC has a sonic signature. I guess that all DACs do to some extent but when I see this type of language used I think that it means that it makes different recordings sound similar in tone. I have heard some DACs do this. You listen to wildly divergent recordings and hear a similar sound with each that shouldn’t be there. It is usually a softness to the top end. I won’t mention any names though so don’t ask. I hope this is not the case with this DAC, especially at this price point. 

 

Not sure what else you want me to say Joe -

 

 That organic, natural and neutral sonic signature of Echo’s End plays fantastically well with this type of a recording. Where the Playback Design’s MPS-8 is far closer to that presentation, AURALiC’s Vega G2 moves the curve the other way, highlighting the leading transients and giving the entire image a more edgy feel...

[Danny Kaey]

7 hours ago, PeterSt said:

 

Alex, thank you for pointing this out. I seemed recognize the board but couldn't place it.

And without beating around the bush, I think your implied merit has, well, merit. And @Danny Kaey, I am sorry, but the review already was too strange to really be one (I read it ahead of responses). 

 

 

 

My review is already too strange to really be one.

 

🙄

[Danny Kaey]

23 minutes ago, mansr said:

Sure, recording music at such rates is of dubious benefit. Nevertheless, such recordings are not hard to find. For the purpose of this discussion, I'm regarding 352.8 kHz and 384 kHz as equivalent, the former for some reason being far more common.

 

most definitely not the music I listen to.

[Danny Kaey]

1 hour ago, Ralf11 said:

 

but maybe made in Romania or Bulgaria, no matter where the designer lives...

 

Last I checked, Romania and Bulgaria are both still in Europe for the time being.

[Danny Kaey]

3 minutes ago, Axial said:

Archimago brought an essential point; in any subjective audio review of an audio product, particularly when for the majority of us it takes few years of savings, any sensitive audiophile would love to see measurement graphs in real life's performance...on the test bench in addition to a set of ears. It is the least we can ask for as well aware audiophiles. 

 

Certainly something you can ask for; that said, I’m not an audiophile and I’m certainly not an aware audiophile. The last few feet of HiFi (from the cone of your speaker to your ears) is all subjective anyway so even if a set of measurements where provided, who’s to say that you or I won’t hear otherwise. Psychologically speaking, the power of suggestion is immensely powerful a force. 

[Danny Kaey]

9 minutes ago, Axial said:

Archimago brought an essential point; in any subjective audio review of an audio product, particularly when for the majority of us it takes few years of savings, any sensitive audiophile would love to see measurement graphs in real life's performance...on the test bench in addition to a set of ears. It is the least we can ask for as well aware audiophiles. 

 

Right. When I bought my first mechanical watch that I saved up for, I asked the salesman for a 24h +/- second measurement cycle. Ummmmm. No, I didn’t. 

[Danny Kaey]

2 hours ago, Archimago said:

Fascinating discussion boys...

 

Just wanted to say that TWENTY THOUSAND AMERICAN DOLLARS after income tax, before sales tax, before shipping costs is still a big number for a DAC. Even to the "liquid" multi-millionaires I know. It does look nice though.

 

Man, where have you been bro? 20k is chump change in high-end land these days. I’m not even joking. 

[Danny Kaey]

1 minute ago, Jud said:

 

Just as an aside, there are some wonderful pieces available.  For example, this album, available in DSD64 and DSD128 (the resolution I have it in) features one of the most beautiful versions of Beethoven's Heiliger Dankgesang I've heard: https://crierrecords.nativedsd.com/albums/dreams-and-prayers

 

(Yes I do realize much of the editing is done in "DXD," 352.8kHz resolution.)

 

I do love classical music, which is likely a candidate for such resolution. That said, I could care less of the kilohertz and megahertz wars. To me, this is the equivalent of arguing over megapixels on a camera sensor. There are so many more relevant factors impacting music reproduction that this is generally speaking utterly meaningless noise. 

[Danny Kaey]

3 hours ago, Ralf11 said:

you don't seem to understand my post - I listed 2 very low cost labor countries in Europe

 

Apparently, I didn’t - that said, generally speaking, most all of Eastern Europe is low cost. Though with that come a plentitude of other factors such as skill levels, work ethics, language barriers, cultural implications, regulations, etc. that have a potentially massive impact on manufacturing. 

[Danny Kaey]

3 minutes ago, Axial said:

 

Yes I understand. It's just that we like to have more food in our plates, so we can taste and eat more after a hard day's work @ the office pushing pencils. ☺️

 

Haha, true!

 

 

 

[Danny Kaey]

2 minutes ago, Axial said:

 

It's not the same; it's a time piece movement. 

 

It is - same implication... 

 

 

 

[Danny Kaey]

13 minutes ago, Jud said:

 

If you have a particular work by a particular artist available in multiple resolutions, it may be that this is meaningless, yes.  Or the best version may be available only in some form of hi res, such as DSD (my preferred versions of Tommy and Gaucho are in DSD resolution).  Or, granted, it may be the CD version, but I don't know of many DACs that won't work with RedBook.  Or that particular work by that particular artist may not exist in a RedBook version, as with the recording I linked in my last comment.

 

So absolutely agreed that on a general level, people may pay too much attention to "resolution wars."  On the other hand, I don't like the idea of being barred from recordings I might enjoy because of my equipment.

 

Valid point - hence why most DACs today do DSD/PCM, (MQA), etc. personally, and in this day and age, I’d much prefer a Roon endpoint DAC with built in Ethernet streaming - put differently, if I had the choice of 2 DACs, one with all formats and the second with limited formats but Ethernet streaming, I’d take the second option. I’m sure @Louis Motek - LessLoss Is perhaps even working on just such a solution. 

 

 

 

[Danny Kaey]

14 hours ago, Archimago said:

 

Hi Danny,

Yeah, well that's the thing isn't it? Many companies are pricing their devices way beyond what I suspect 99% of audiophiles are likely willing to pay. If one places "sound quality" as the #1 priority, it is I believe realistic to say that there is no need to own a beautiful sounding DAC anywhere approaching that 20k price figure.

 

Those kinds of prices are chasing the luxury market. The company knows they will sell very few; and they only need to sell a few to make a profit. What I've for years called "non-utilitarian" features of the device like how it looks, the exotic materials they're made of, or pride of ownership of something "special". I have no problem if anyone buys a device with those goals in mind.

 

I know companies want to link the two: high-priced device made of unique construction/material = "better sound quality" and will create all kinds of "attribution theories" to explain why their device is special (such as the wood material having better vibration control). That linkage of ideas of course is not necessarily true. While I would love the look and feel of Panzerholz, there is as others have noted no reason to think this is any better than thick metal shielding for a DAC.

 

Yeah... Lots of companies with lots of high priced goods. Nice to have options. But "good sound quality" I think is best correlated to the physical characteristics of the sound waves in our rooms and the quality of the electrical signals. For me, that's where "job #1" lies when it comes to writing a review and impressing upon the the readers that the gear is worthy/valuable for their consideration...

 

completely in agreement with you - I have seen my fair share of fancy and extremely expensive casework make its way through Chez K only to be largely disappointed with the overall sound quality. Therein lies one of the problems with high-end audio... not that there aren't any other problems with it.......... 🤣