Article: LessLoss Echo’s End Reference DAC Full Review

[Danny Kaey]

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[The Computer Audiophile]

I'm not sure how this DAC escaped me, but I'm glad to read about it here. The craftsmanship looks amazing. 

[Danny Kaey]

16 minutes ago, The Computer Audiophile said:

I'm not sure how this DAC escaped me, but I'm glad to read about it here. The craftsmanship looks amazing. 

 

it's positively first rate and at that, so markedly different from anything else on the market. A genuine gem if it were!

[Axial]

It's a very nice enclosure, I like it. I see some good care here...in&out. 

Thank you for the cool review, Mr. Danny.

[AudioDoctor]

I love the wood enclosure, the build quality of the internals looks outstanding as well. I was glad to see they had a unit at 1/4th the price as well.  That's more my style!

[Ralf11]

yes, the grooved wood is ... uh ... groovey lookin'

 

but does not provide any RF shielding

[AudioDoctor]

23 minutes ago, Ralf11 said:

yes, the grooved wood is ... uh ... groovey lookin'

 

but does not provide any RF shielding

 

That's okay, I live inside a giant faraday cage, and every single piece of electronics I own is also inside its own faraday cage...  

 

My walls are made of Shakti Stones with special glue that reduces vibrations.

[esldude]

 

Somehow, Less Loss makes me think of Less Nessman. 

From the Less Loss Echo's End page:

 We always know that sonic performance has primarily to do with Jitter reduction, and that Jitter is always going to be contended, since it is impossible to measure with authority. We work by ear where the lab equipment can’t follow. 

 

 

 

 

[Ralf11]

He's got 2 stmts. in that sentence, and stmt 2 seems to preclude making stmt. 1...

[AudioDoctor]

13 minutes ago, esldude said:

 

Somehow, Less Loss makes me think of Less Nessman. 

 

 We always know that sonic performance has primarily to do with Jitter reduction, and that Jitter is always going to be contended, since it is impossible to measure with authority. We work by ear where the lab equipment can’t follow. 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Oh the Humanity...

[Superdad]

Just FYI—as it is not mentioned in the review:

The LessLoss DACs are based on this Soekris ladder DAC DIY module:

http://www.soekris.dk/dam1021.html

 

[pkane2001]

23 minutes ago, Superdad said:

Just FYI—as it is not mentioned in the review:

The LessLoss DACs are based on this Soekris ladder DAC DIY module:

http://www.soekris.dk/dam1021.html

 

 

THD+N of -84dB in a $20K DAC? Really? Less loss is not the term that comes to mind. Nice box, though

[esldude]

38 minutes ago, Superdad said:

Just FYI—as it is not mentioned in the review:

The LessLoss DACs are based on this Soekris ladder DAC DIY module:

http://www.soekris.dk/dam1021.html

 

Wow! What's a pretty face (box) worth?

[AudioDoctor]

Wow...

 

The DIY part linked above lists that it is capable of 24/384 and Native DSD. The LessLoss Website says the DAC is capable of 24/192 and DSD.

[Superdad]

20 minutes ago, AudioDoctor said:

The DIY part linked above lists that it is capable of 24/384 and Native DSD. The LessLoss Website says the DAC is capable of 24/192 and DSD.

 

Must have either been their choice to limit it or they are using an early version of the Soekris firmware.  But they are the same board.  The pictures don't lie.

[AudioDoctor]

It might be an earlier version of the board, there is a note that there is a version not being stocked anymore.

[AudioDoctor]

$314.89 x2 = $629.78 for the two DAC boards

 

$19,628.00 - $629.78 = $18,998.22 left over for the rest of the parts and the engineering, custom programming they say they did, etc...

 

Basically, 19K for the rest of it. Is it worth that much?

[Ralf11]

sounds like a post on Porsche...

 

 

[fas42]

As good an example as any of the importance of the 'auxiliary engineering'. Same board, pulled out of that box, and attached to the usual "other bits" and inside a conventional case will highly likely sound nowhere near as good - I note people are still hung up on the core bits "being everything", and "measurements tell the full story".

 

Having worked from the other direction, that is, using very ordinary circuits from cheap audio gear, and improving the enviroment they work in - to excellent effect - I have no doubt that it delivers the goods.

 

People have great difficulty appreciating that low cost electronics get all the key aspects of high SQ right - which is then wrecked by cheap and nasty implementation in the final package. Meaning, the high cost is justified, because of the knowledge component in the construction of the full product; Swiss gear uses a similar philosophy, to great effect.

[Danny Kaey]

2 hours ago, Superdad said:

Just FYI—as it is not mentioned in the review:

The LessLoss DACs are based on this Soekris ladder DAC DIY module:

http://www.soekris.dk/dam1021.html

 

 

That’s absolutely correct - duckduckgo-ing the interwebs, you’ll find that pointed out in other reviews. Then again, I wasn’t reviewing the Soekris DAC DIY module. My question is simply this: so what? I can buy Sabre and TI chips all day long and won’t be able to make a box sound anywhere near as good as proper digital gurus using the same parts. This DAC’s magic lies in the overall execution leveraging pre-fabed modules. Nothing wrong with that. If LL want to charge ten times the asking price for the finished product, let them. The market will decide if it’s saleable or not. 

 

😎

 

[Danny Kaey]

6 hours ago, Axial said:

It's a very nice enclosure, I like it. I see some good care here...in&out. 

Thank you for the cool review, Mr. Danny.

 

Thank you Sir, much appreciated!

[Danny Kaey]

1 hour ago, AudioDoctor said:

$314.89 x2 = $629.78 for the two DAC boards

 

$19,628.00 - $629.78 = $18,998.22 left over for the rest of the parts and the engineering, custom programming they say they did, etc...

 

Basically, 19K for the rest of it. Is it worth that much?

 

Mind you, this math works pretty much across the board on everything else made by everyone else. Magico drivers, $300; final price $78,000. So is the extra $77,700 worth it?

[Danny Kaey]

1 hour ago, Superdad said:

 

Must have either been their choice to limit it or they are using an early version of the Soekris firmware.  But they are the same board.  The pictures don't lie.

 

That’s a great question and I don’t know the answer to it, nor do I frankly care. The DAC is fabulous and LL Implantation of the final product is terrific.

[Danny Kaey]

2 hours ago, esldude said:

Wow! What's a pretty face (box) worth?

 

Well let’s see. Go find a supplier of genuine Panzerholz, have them give you a quote for a case the size of this DAC. Once you have that number, add another zero to it, because by the time you actually have the chassis you want, you’ll probably go through 20 revisions. Then, once you took out a second mortgage on your home, carefully source all the other parts, because this isn’t a review of the Soekris DAC modules. Once you have all those parts, the pretty box and DAC modules, find an engineer who will put it all together for you. Finally, when you’re done, shoot me an email and send one for review and let’s see what you put together.

 

Is that fair enough?

 

PS: of course, you don’t have to go for the Reference edition either; I bet the Original Echo’s End for $5342 sounds great too... 

 

😎

[Superdad]

18 minutes ago, Danny Kaey said:

That’s a great question and I don’t know the answer to it, nor do I frankly care. The DAC is fabulous and LL Implantation of the final product is terrific.

 

To be clear, I was not trying to take anything away from the product or your assessment and enjoyment of it. 

 

However, my personal style is one of greater plain-speak and honesty about the technology used.  One ought not have to go hunting on the web to discover the origin of the entire heart of the product.  What got me curious in the first place is their quote about concern for jitter--yet all we can see on the DAC board is a $2 clock for the FPGA (in the Soekris design the FPGA synthesizes the audio clocks).

I also go numb when I read vacuous marketing catchwords like "Firewall 64X modules" and see all the circuits hidden with plexiglas (carbon fiber?) shrouds.  

 

But as you say, if it sounds good, who cares?