Digital Audio First Steps beyond CD?

[thunderroad]

I am a newbie to this forum, but a long time audio enthusiast with a pretty decent older system that is looking to make his first serious move into digital audio beyond the CD & am looking to the collective wisdom here to determine my next steps. I am a complete dinosaur when it comes to digital music beyond the traditional CD player, although I did experiment several years ago with using Windows Media Player to store & playback CD's & really liked the convienance in having a large number of CD's readily available & nicely organized. Unfortunately, the sound quality wasn't up to par & the typical Microsoft software updates & upgrades(?) made things difficult, as well. So, that whole thing went onto a back burner & I have been relying on the CD's themselves. 

 

 I have recently visited a local high-end hifi dealer here in the SF Bay Area & was very suitably impressed with a digital music server, running a separate DAC & using stored CD music files for running streaming audio from an online service called Tidal. The total outlay for this music server, plus DAC was in the neighborhood of $5k-6k which is a pretty sizable chunk for a retired guy living on a fixed income. So, i am looking for ways to move into a system like this, but with smaller incremental steps without painting myself into a corner. I have no doubt that my final total outlay will still be about the same, but I am thinking evolution, over revolution, in terms of both equipment & user knowledge. 

 

To this end, my proposed course of action is to initially add a quality external DAC to process data from my Denon CD changer to my McIntosh C34V preamp, while looking into digital music storage & streaming. Is this a good idea? If so, what direction should I head in the music server direction? I own several older PC's that I could dedicate to music server only duty, but what would be a good music server software to use & what file formats to store music in. I am eventually upgrading to Mac computers, but am still pretty much PC based, at the moment. So, what are your thoughts? 

[Ralf11]

buy a refurbed mac mini from the Apple refurb (used) store - it will come with a warranty (iTunes works a lot better on macs than Windoz machines)

- does not have to be fast or have high end CPU or need an SSD or Fusion; get a drive capacity adequate for your music collection and more

 

stick a keyboard, mouse & monitor on it (even temporarily if you need to save $$)

 

open iTunes & put a CD in the slot of the accessory CD drive you also bought (~~$30) - check the 'Use Error Correction box' in the disc ripping dialog; rip to Apple Lossless or other lossless if you want

- lather/rinse/repeat until all CDs are on there - iTune will do the organization itself but you can modify things if you need to

 

you have now spent $400 to $500...

 

you can use the built-in DAC in the mini but an outboard DAC for $400 (Pro-Ject) or an even more expensive one will give you higher SQ;  I am unsure if a $100 to $200 outboard DAC will yield higher SQ than the builtin mac mini DAC

 

A. you may well want to buy something that will galvanically isolate the USB connection to your DAC ---> it appears this depends on how well the DAC is designed (based on user reports, measurements at ASR and basic digital knowledge; I have never seen a controlled listening test of this)

 

B. or... do what I do and use WiFi - I use Apple's AirPlay; this is convenient, and provides galvanic isolation, but is limited to Redbook (CD) so you cannot do hiRes (I have an SACD player for DSD discs).  You turn that facility on, buy a used Apple TV3 (not 4) for about $40 from the Apple store, or their Airplay routers, and plug that into your DAC

 

C. or... the ultimate isolation -- optical fiber; there is a thread on here where @jabbr explains how to do this - it allows you to shoot hiRes into your DAC

 

there are numerous add-on products available for USB, optical coupling, and ethernet - they may or may not help with SQ

 

This will keep you busy for some time and provide high SQ.  For more putative SQ, you can add on any number of expensive devices which may or may not fit your budget or increase SQ.

 

if you do venture further than the above and want to keep things simple, tho not cheap, I have 2 names for you: Linn and Aries - there are many, many others.

 

Have Fun.

 

 

[Daverz]

You could install Logitech Media Server (LMS) on an older PC and use a Raspberry Pi for the transport (to stream to the stereo).  The Pi can use a wired or wireless network.  A DAC board could be installed on the Pi or it could feed a USB DAC.

 

LMS can stream Tidal and Qobuz.

 

It's as easy to set up as:

 

Install LMS and some music files on the PC.  Navigate to http://localhost:9000 and scan your music files.

 

Burn piCorePlayer to memory card, install in the Pi, connect ethernet and DAC , plug in Pi.  It should find LMS and LMS should see the player.   Navigate to player IP in your browser and config audio.

 

http://wiki.slimdevices.com/index.php/Logitech_Media_Server

 

Download LMS here: http://downloads.slimdevices.com/nightly/?ver=7.9

 

Example DAC on Pi: https://www.allo.com/sparky/katana.html

 

My preferred software on the Pi: https://www.picoreplayer.org/

 

 

 

  

[Daverz]

I missed the requirement for a DAC input for the CD player.  I would suggest looking at something like a Topping or SMSL before making a large outlay.

 

https://www.amazon.com/Dilvpoetry-TOPPING-Digital-ES9038Q2M2-Amplifier/dp/B07BH13GZ5/ref=sr_1_4?keywords=topping+d50&qid=1555805137&s=gateway&sr=8-4

 

https://www.amazon.com/Decoder-SMSL-2ES9038Q2M-768kHz-Balance/dp/B07DQDNF6S/ref=sr_1_fkmrnull_1?keywords=smsl+su8&qid=1555805285&s=gateway&sr=8-1-fkmrnull

 

Or check Massdrop for even lower prices

 

https://www.massdrop.com/buy/topping-d50-dac

 

 

[Ralf11]

yes, the Topping is well regarded.

 

BTW, I have no doubt that your final total outlay can be a LOT less than $5,000.

[Norton]

The Project Pre Box S2 already mentioned would be a good starting point for a modern DAC, should work with your player if it has optical or coxaxial outputs.

 

As for a streamer/file player, a used Bryston BDP1 could be a good choice, about $700 these days and can do everything from local replay from attached drives through to accessing music on your network or from Tidal.  Not really doing anything a PC can’t be set up to do, but a neat solution with great ongoing support from Bryston.  Best to get seller to update FW to latest version of “Manic Moose” before purchase though.

 

I’ve been “post CD” for 10 years now and if I was starting out again with what I know today, , I’d go straight to the UPL/MOS16 combo here https://www.ecdesigns.nl/en/shop

 - not a streaming solution, think of it as a cd transport, holding 99 ripped CDs on thumbdrive,  plus accompanying DAC.  Not the most convenient solution, but I can’t think of anything near the price that demonstrates so well the latent potential of RBCD SQ.

[thunderroad]

Thank you all for the helpful & detailed responses to my earlier posting. I really appreciate the various paths suggested & specific product recommendations you have all posted, as well as the links provided. I have looked at some of them already but still clearly have a lot more reading & learning to do before taking the plunge.

 

I am thinking that I should probably give a little more context to my original posting by stating the gear that I did listen to that impressed me so much. The digital gear that I listened to was the aurender N10 music server, backed by an Ayre Acoustics Codex DAC/headphone amp in a quality, but basic Parasound/Sonus Faber system. The music we listened to was previously stored CD flac files of various types ranging from Classical, Jazz, Blues, etc. & covering the full gambit of genres. My demo was by appointment & during the workweek, so I was able to spend quite a bit of time, on my own with the system & do some prolonged listening. I was also able to search & listen to some streaming audio via Tidal through the system & was very impressed as well. As I mentioned previously, this digital system was right in the price range of $5k.

 

When I expressed my considerable reservations concerning price & inquired about a more reasonable solution, I was shown a Bluesound music server & that was plugged into the same Parasound/Sonus Faber system for a listen. My salesperson was not a fan of the Bluesound & indicated that the unit we were listening to was not the latest model. However, he did allow me to spend a little time with it also & enjoyed it a lot, but found the the sound slightly brittle & the 3-dimensionality soundstage of the Bluesound a little flat when compared to aurender/ayre combination. But, we are also talking about the difference between a $5k & a $1.2k system.

 

In both cases, I really really liked the interface software & the ability of using an iPad or even my iPhone as a system controller. The Conductor software that comes with the aurender was really a great application & a pleasure to use. While I didn’t have the same amount of time with the Bluesound software, it too appeared to be a good interface as well.

 

So, in light of this great demo, I am still pondering which direction to go. Pop for a Bluesound or Sonus type of solution or buy a really good DAC to start with & use it with my existing CD player initially & then work up an old PC as music storage & then add the full music server technology later. I am also planning on setting up demos at some of the other high end shops here in the SF Bay Area to hear their recommendations, learn more, & spend some time with other gear as well.

 

As background info, my existing system is largely vinyl based & consists of a McIntosh C34V preamp, McIntosh 7270 amplifier, & either original Snell C, Dahlquist DQ-10, or Tannoy D700 speakers.

 

I would sure like to hear your additional thoughts on this! Thanks in advance for the feedback & suggestions!

[Daverz]

There are several iOS apps for LMS that work on iPads and iPhones (there are also Android apps).  I use iPeng.

 

http://penguinlovesmusic.de/

 

The LMS ecosystem is very mature and sophisticated, there are many plugins for it, and a large community around it.

 

On the "streamer" end, the Raspberry Pi is also a mature hardware platform with many hardware and software add-ons.  You can get everything you need to connect to your pre-amp from HiFiBerry for about $105.

 

https://www.hifiberry.com/shop/bundles/dac-bundle/

 

From there you can experiment with different DAC boards, outboard USB DACs, power supplies, or other transports than the Pi.

 

[Ralf11]

you can't go wrong with Ayre (except in your wallet) but it seems the dealer showed you a high end system and a ... well lower end system with no in between step

 

I'd go for an in between setup esp. for the DAC as I think we will see those evolve fairly rapidly relative to other components

 

I am also in the market for a DAC and if were to spend $400 I'd look at the Pro Ject; $1,000 - the RME and some others; for more the next item of interest is the Okto (sp?)

 

If you will simply use CDs (at least for now) and have no HiRes albums, then the mac mini makes a fine server.  Either isolate it from the DAC or use a DAC that is not affected by noise on the USB (you can easily test the various isolation devices to see if they sound different).  There a number of such devices, with ones by Uptone and Sonore being popular here.  They are not expensive.

[ipeverywhere]

As you've already discovered you're going to be trading elegant and simple for $'s. I'm not entirely sure there is a great way around that. However, one step at a time will get you familiar with digital audio and you may, in the end, find you can get an amazing system with a little work...  

 

My personal journey..

 

1) I ripped all my CDs in ALAC (Apple Lossless) using iTunes and put them on a network drive. You can use a ~$100 USB drive off Amazon. This is probably the most time consuming and frustrating bit of my entire journey. It may be worth doing some research into ripping CDs so you don't end up doing it twice.  

 

2) I then bought a mini-toslink to toslink cable. At the time Apple still provided a digital out using the headphone jack. This became my source and it was plugged into my AVR. Yes, there are DACs in your AVR or AV-pre and they can sometimes be very good. I played music from iTunes primarily selecting songs via the Apple Remote and iTunes sharing or whatever they called it back then / now. 

 

At this point it sounded ho-hum.. certainly _not_ as good as my Rega CD player. I was playing CDs when I wanted better quality and using iTunes when I wanted the easy of selecting music directly from the iPad. This whole set-up cost me a whopping $10 for the toslink cable.  

 

3) My next upgrade was to get Audirvana+ on the Mac. Made a massive difference. Cost was minimal. You'll find some really excellent players on both Mac and PC. It will quickly convince iTunes is a horrible sounding product. Cost? ~$30 to $100? Whatever the hi-end music players are going for these days. The ones you'll see mentioned here are Audirvana+, Amarra, (others, I lose track) for Mac and you'll find JRiver, HQ Player, foobar, (again, I lose track of what is popular). Others can fill in the blank. The primary reason these all sound better than the music player already on your machine (iTunes for example) is this software takes exclusive control over the audio system and can do some system level optimizations which gives you the better sound quality. 

 

Now, I was still not as good as my CD player but I was getting really close. 

 

4) I bought a Schiit DAC. The particular configuration of DAC I bought was ~$800. 
It was at this point I actually plugged my Rega into the Schiit DAC because it was better than the DAC in my CD player. My stored music files Audirvana+ -> Schiit DAC sounded better than the plastic disc in the Rega. 

 

So, as you can see the path to "digital", and which gets you better than CD quality, does not have to cost much. This initial set-up (it really depends on which DAC you start with) may not get you anywhere near as good as the Aurender / Ayre combo you heard but your cost investment to see how close you can get may be worth your time. Additionally, it will be an investment in understanding the benefits of a complete solution like Aurender Conductor / BlueOS or roll your own by using Audirvana+, JRiver, or even Roon. 

 

Also, don't forget to enjoy the music. 

 

 

 

 

[Ralf11]

^ good story to illustrate how you can get where you want step by step, too