Double Blind Testing Prices All Power Cords Have An Effect On Audio!!!!!

[gmgraves]

13 hours ago, opus101 said:

 

In normal (aka differential) mode, this is true. But then you'll also have a bank of reservoir caps to help with the filtering. However its not the case for common mode, particularly if the transformer's a toroidal.

Quite true, I didn’t mention it because I thought it muddied the waters to my main point, which is that these huge and hugely expensive boutique power cords cannot possibly have any effect on the sound.

 

If all the other arguments fail to convince one of this simple fact, doubters and true believers alike should ponder this final and indisputable fact: Since the Romex* cable in one’s walls is not shielded, why would a shielded 6ft. long mains cable from the wall socket to the IEC socket on the back of a component do anything to keep out RFI? If there is RFI, it was already picked up by the wall wiring, of which there is likely hundreds of feet before the mains power ever reaches the wall outlet into which the boutique power cable has been plugged. In other words, the notion that these expensive IEC cables do anything that the cable which came with the component in question can’t or doesn’t do, is just that... a notion.

 

*Romex is the heavy-gauge sheathed, solid copper cable that carries your mains (in the USA) from your fuse/breaker box to your various outlets throughout your house.

[sandyk]

17 minutes ago, gmgraves said:

If all the other arguments fail to convince one of this simple fact, doubters and true believers alike

 

 George

 Yet once again you plain wrong about possible audible differences between interconnects, Coax SPDIF cables and even some power cables, both for A.C. and DC too.

 I didn't believe in differences between A.C. mains cables either until  expensive Mains cables on loan from a local HiiFi dealer were  substituted between a cheap Bunnings Hardware store power board and a couple of big Nelson Pass Class A monoblocks at one of our then regular listening sessions.

 All 5 present reported hearing small but worthwhile improvements with the very expensive mains cables under NON SIGHTED conditions.

 

Alex

[Paul R]

20 minutes ago, gmgraves said:

Quite true, I didn’t mention it because I thought it muddied the waters to my main point, which is that these huge and hugely expensive boutique power cords cannot possibly have any effect on the sound.

 

If all the other arguments fail to convince one of this simple fact, doubters and true believers alike should ponder this final and indisputable fact: Since the Romex* cable in one’s walls is not shielded, why would a shielded 6ft. long mains cable from the wall socket to the IEC socket on the back of a component do anything to keep out RFI? If there is RFI, it was already picked up by the wall wiring, of which there is likely hundreds of feet before the mains power ever reaches the wall outlet into which the boutique power cable has been plugged. In other words, the notion that these expensive IEC cables do anything that the cable which came with the component in question can’t or doesn’t do, is just that... a notion.

 

*Romex is the heavy-gauge sheathed, solid copper cable that carries your mains (in the USA) from your fuse/breaker box to your various outlets throughout your house.

 

Hi George - for once, you and I completely agree. You are 100% right.  

 

However (you knew there was going to be one of those right?) people do hear differences between power cables. In fact, I can clean the prongs on a power cable and hear a difference myself. You probably can too.  Which is weird, but AC is a strange beast.

 

I am sure there are simple and explanations for that, as I can think of several myself. Those explanation range from expectation bias on to contact crud buildup increasing resistance over time. 

 

What burns my chops is some crew out there hawking thousand dollar 1 meter power cables as the answer to all your audio woes.That's about as untrue as it is possible to get, and yet, the buggers get away with it. The truth lies somewhere in the middle, or actually, much closer to the clean-the-contacts end, IMHO. 

[Ralf11]

49 minutes ago, gmgraves said:

Quite true, I didn’t mention it because I thought it muddied the waters to my main point, which is that these huge and hugely expensive boutique power cords cannot possibly have any effect on the sound.

 

If all the other arguments fail to convince one of this simple fact, doubters and true believers alike should ponder this final and indisputable fact: Since the Romex* cable in one’s walls is not shielded, why would a shielded 6ft. long mains cable from the wall socket to the IEC socket on the back of a component do anything to keep out RFI? If there is RFI, it was already picked up by the wall wiring, of which there is likely hundreds of feet before the mains power ever reaches the wall outlet into which the boutique power cable has been plugged. In other words, the notion that these expensive IEC cables do anything that the cable which came with the component in question can’t or doesn’t do, is just that... a notion.

 

*Romex is the heavy-gauge sheathed, solid copper cable that carries your mains (in the USA) from your fuse/breaker box to your various outlets throughout your house.

 

 

Yes.  The only way around that is to claim that RFI sources are near the AC power cable.

[sandyk]

38 minutes ago, Paul R said:

In fact, I can clean the prongs on a power cable and hear a difference myself.

 

 If cleaning the prongs on a properly functioning A.C. mains cable results in a small improvement due to slightly lower resistance, then it stands to reason that a beefier power cable with lower resistance copper wire, and less flimsy plug contacts should also make a minor difference, especially in the USA and other countries where you need to draw around double the current from your lower mains voltage system compared with a nominal 230VAC 50HZ system. This is even more important with the high powered amplifiers many in the USA favour, compared with the generally lower power amplifiers favoured in many European countries where you often also have to consider the nearby neighbours  more.

[crenca]

1 hour ago, gmgraves said:

...In other words, the notion that these expensive IEC cables do anything that the cable which came with the component in question can’t or doesn’t do, is just that... a notion.

 

 

This hobby is full of such "notions".  Good word.

[Paul R]

36 minutes ago, sandyk said:

 

 If cleaning the prongs on a properly functioning A.C. mains cable results in a small improvement due to slightly lower resistance, then it stands to reason that a beefier power cable with lower resistance copper wire, and less flimsy plug contacts should also make a minor difference, especially in the USA and other countries where you need to draw around double the current from your lower mains voltage system compared with a nominal 230VAC 50HZ system. This is even more important with the high powered amplifiers many in the USA favour, compared with the generally lower power amplifiers favoured in many European countries where you often also have to consider the nearby neighbours  more.

 

It is a thought worth thinking, but it doesn't necessarily lead to the conclusion. A "beefier" power cord, beyond certain limits, is just not going to make any difference. Geometry in a power cord plays a significantly less important role than in a signal cable, so it is basically an insignificant factor. 

 

The "certain limits" I referred to above can and routinely are met in power cords costing about $10 - $20 meter. Beyond that, it really does get into a grey area. And beyond whatever limit you set, $100/meter is probably a hard to argue with limit, power cable stuff just turns into trickery and flim flam. If you can get the same improvement with a piece of fine sandpaper you can from a $100 cable, or from two $3.50 caps soldered in the line, then something is dodgy there... 

 

-Paul 

 

[sandyk]

2 minutes ago, Paul R said:

A "beefier" power cord, beyond certain limits, is just not going to make any difference.

 

We are in general  agreement, however, where a high powered amplifier uses a very large amount of Filter capacitance this may come into play at sustained high power levels. With some amplifiers, even switching them on may cause a nearby table lamp to dim briefly.

[gmgraves]

2 hours ago, Ralf11 said:

 

 

Yes.  The only way around that is to claim that RFI sources are near the AC power cable.

Unlikely as that might be, fortunately. Perhaps the local oscillator on an FM tuner or receiver, but those are generally pretty well shielded to avoid interference in the IF  circuitry. Still, and again, there is no reason for a shielded IEC cable to cost much more than an unshielded IEC mains cable (and those are available, often for just a couple of bucks!).

[opus101]

3 hours ago, gmgraves said:

Quite true, I didn’t mention it because I thought it muddied the waters to my main point, which is that these huge and hugely expensive boutique power cords cannot possibly have any effect on the sound.

 

Given that you do seem to accept that its CM noise which is the issue and isn't going to be much filtered by the mains trafo its just a small step to envisage a particular design of mains cable to act as a distributed common-mode choke.

[AudioDoctor]

Remind me to not post any satirical cable articles in the future...

[AnotherSpin]

Clean contacts is a great idea. Works wanders in addition to better cords.

[sandyk]

2 hours ago, gmgraves said:

. Perhaps the local oscillator on an FM tuner or receiver, but those are generally pretty well shielded to avoid interference in the IF  circuitry.

 George

 You claim to be an RF expert, so perhaps you can  give us some idea of the minute radiated level from the local oscillator in a typical metal cased tuner vs. reasonably close Stereo FM and TV transmitters.

 Their levels may be much higher than you wish to believe !

Years ago I lived several KM from 4 Analogue TV transmitters, yet the frame buzz from one got into the LM3886 (?) based amplifier via the speaker cables and NFB network.

 The cure was to wind the speaker cables through a big Toroid. 

 

Alex

[Paul R]

5 hours ago, sandyk said:

 

We are in general  agreement, however, where a high powered amplifier uses a very large amount of Filter capacitance this may come into play at sustained high power levels. With some amplifiers, even switching them on may cause a nearby table lamp to dim briefly.

 

Well, Ramapo Triplex 2-2-2 is only about $1.02/foot. That will surely handle any power need for an amp.

 

Yeah, I am being a little facetious, becuase who would want that stuff visible in their house? But in any case, even with 2-2-2 from the wall to the device, the rest of the house is probably just Romex, and the lights may still I'm for a second or so. They will just I'm a little faster!

 

Seriously, cable shenanigans are atrocious, and right up there with the snake oil salesmen selling electrocream or whatnot. 

 

-Paul

 

[fas42]

These conversations are highly amusing - directly correlate with the worried home owner who installs extra heavy duty locks on his front door, installs security cameras pointing down on this spot. And responds when a neighbour asks has he done anything about the back of the house, "That's not as important; bad guys will always try to get in the front way ..."

 

Unfortunately, electrons are very even handed in their ways of dealing with 'obstacles'.

[sandyk]

3 hours ago, Paul R said:

Yeah, I am being a little facetious, becuase who would want that stuff visible in their house? But in any case, even with 2-2-2 from the wall to the device, the rest of the house is probably just Romex, and the lights may still I'm for a second or so. They will just I'm a little faster!

 

BTW,  where I mentioned the lights dimming, the amplifier was on a 15A feed from the Fusebox, and the lamp , IIRC ,was on a separate circuit. A later amplifier had a "soft start" PCB where after a short delay, a relay operated and short circuited a series PW5 resistor.

[Paul R]

4 hours ago, sandyk said:

 

BTW,  where I mentioned the lights dimming, the amplifier was on a 15A feed from the Fusebox, and the lamp , IIRC ,was on a separate circuit. A later amplifier had a "soft start" PCB where after a short delay, a relay operated and short circuited a series PW5 resistor.

 

Dang, the new spelling checker went wild there, changing every “dim”  to “I’ll”  - that is definitely a short circuit.

 

You guys have 8amp circuits in your homes these days? I think the smallest I see over here is 10, with 15 being much more usual.

 

Just as a conversation point, why would anyone design or need an amplifier built that way? What does such a design buy in the amplifier? Ain’t never going to put power like that out in a normal kit. Ears bleeding and all that... 

 

[The Computer Audiophile]

8 hours ago, sandyk said:

perhaps you can  give us some idea of the minute radiated level from the local oscillator in a typical metal cased tuner vs. reasonably close Stereo FM and TV transmitters.

Oh what a conversation that would be. I'm sure everyone will be tuning in. I just can't take the suspense. 

[marce]

6 hours ago, fas42 said:

These conversations are highly amusing - directly correlate with the worried home owner who installs extra heavy duty locks on his front door, installs security cameras pointing down on this spot. And responds when a neighbour asks has he done anything about the back of the house, "That's not as important; bad guys will always try to get in the front way ..."

 

Unfortunately, electrons are very even handed in their ways of dealing with 'obstacles'.

What have electrons got to do with it, in the presence of AC they just jiggle about in the cable and don't go anywhere...

[mav52]

8 hours ago, Paul R said:

Yeah, I am being a little facetious, becuase who would want that stuff visible in their house?

 

Just get you some of that pretty Techflex sleeving and you could say you paid $1000 for that power cable.😀

[jabbr]

9 hours ago, sandyk said:

Years ago I lived several KM from 4 Analogue TV transmitters, yet the frame buzz from one got into the LM3886 (?) based amplifier via the speaker cables and NFB network.

 The cure was to wind the speaker cables through a big Toroid. 

 

That might be one cure, another would be to use an amp which isn’t also a TV receiver!

[Ralf11]

12 hours ago, AnotherSpin said:

Clean contacts is a great idea. Works wanders in addition to better cords.

 

but don't you want to prevent "wanders"?

 

The electrons should go straight thru the "slow pull" oxytocin-free pure "Oh no!" copper 

[Ralf11]

10 hours ago, Paul R said:

 

Well, Ramapo Triplex 2-2-2 is only about $1.02/foot. That will surely handle any power need for an amp.

 

Yeah, I am being a little facetious, becuase who would want that stuff visible in their house? But in any case, even with 2-2-2 from the wall to the device, the rest of the house is probably just Romex, and the lights may still I'm for a second or so. They will just I'm a little faster!

 

Seriously, cable shenanigans are atrocious, and right up there with the snake oil salesmen selling electrocream or whatnot. 

 

-Paul

 

 

you should upgrade from the Ramapo Triplex to the Rambo - and put him on a Quad, not a Triplex (which are illegal now anyway)

 

the Rambo is well suited to freeing any captive electrons

[Paul R]

1 hour ago, mav52 said:

 

Just get you some of that pretty Techflex sleeving and you could say you paid $1000 for that power cable.😀

 

LOL! Perhaps we should go into business together!  

 

Have you heard about our new high tech aluminum power and data cables?  They are pretty, if about half the size of a firehose, because we insulate them with hand painted jackets! (Sourced from the North Face of course...)

 

Being so big, they can carry massive loads, and since aluminum is one of the most common things on earth, the electrons that wiggle in the cable feel more at home and pass the signal along faster. 

 

In our premium deluxe edition, the electrons like the material of our cable so well, they actually wriggle faster than light, creating a temporal rift that brings you the music from the exact second it was being played - no dusty old sounds at all! Just fresh music with no metallic edge. Please note, our current version limits the temporally corrected  playback to songs performed no more than 2.93345 milliseconds in the past, otherwise you just hear normal old time playback. Truth in advertising! We care about your sound! 

 

Our premium interconnects eliminate the DAC, grabbing the music right off the digital source without the need for a digital to analog convertor at all. Isn't that cool?!!

 

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[Ralf11]

2 hours ago, marce said:

What have electrons got to do with it, in the presence of AC they just jiggle about in the cable and don't go anywhere...

 

well there's drift