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Double Blind Testing Prices All Power Cords Have An Effect On Audio!!!!!

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11 minutes ago, Ralf11 said:

barrows - do you have any brands/models of AC power cords to suggest that people try?

- esp. ones with a return priv. or 'rental' from one of the places renting cables

 

BTW, I'd do a dedicated line long before a swap of AC power cords; a swap of DC power cords (to the DAC) before that, and an upgraded p/s to the DAC before that...

 

 

I have not really sampled a lot of AC line cables, only a few, and I DIY (most of) mine.  There are so many out there, and some of course, do make some rather extravagant claims.  The Cable Company is the usual source for getting loaners to try if one does not have a brick and mortar dealer.  I have used the various models from Cardas with good results, and they are more reasonably priced than many, and made in the USA with excellent build quality and no nonsense designs.  I have also used Synergistic a little, they are very unusual, and actually have a circuit which injects some kind of noise into the cable.  I do not understand how the Synergistic stuff works, but it does work.  Perhaps the injected noise is working in a similar fashion to dither, I asked Ted Denney (owner of Synergistic) that question once, and he would neither confirm or deny it, likely just protecting his IP.  I have no doubt that the Synergistic cables often do something good, but they are a little bit too spendy for me.

Agreed on the dedicated line, if one can do it, one should certainly do this first.  Of course one can have all kinds of fun tearing out walls, not to mention deciding what wire to run as they dedicated line!


ROON: DSD 256-Signature Rendu optical--Buffalo PRO (ESS 9038) or DSC-2--Ncore 400 Stereo-Focus Audio FS888-JL E-112 sub-Nordost Tyr USB, Nordost Frey XLR & speaker, DIY AC cables-Synergistic Blue & Hi Fi Tuning Supreme Cu Fuses, Dark Matter system clarifiers.    Design/Build Consultant with Sonore

 

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Thanks.  The Bottlehead looks like an interesting way to address some (claimed) effects on SQ at a low price.


"The overwhelming majority [of audiophiles] have very little knowledge, if any, about the most basic principles and operating characteristics of audio equipment. They often base their purchasing decisions on hearsay, and the preaching of media sages. Unfortunately, because of commercial considerations, much information is rooted in increasing revenue, not in assisting the audiophile. It seems as if the only requirements for becoming an "authority" in the world of audio is a keyboard."

-- Bruce Rozenblit of Transcendent Sound

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15 minutes ago, pkane2001 said:

 

What do you want to know? How the cable filter works or how the device measuring the AC line noise works?

How does noise get lowered when the power cable is connected next to the port on which measurements are taken?


Founder of Audiophile Style and Superphonica

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17 minutes ago, The Computer Audiophile said:

How does noise get lowered when the power cable is connected next to the port on which measurements are taken?

 

It has a built in filter network. A capacitor across the two wires will conduct RF, in effect creating a short for RF-induced frequencies. 

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Over the years I've played with quite a variety of noise reducing strategies on cables; line filters, IOW - including one which was so petite that I could probably squeeze into the cord itself somehow, ^_^.

 

The big trick is to consider everything in your rig that's tied together electrically, or is close to some electrical 'noise', to be part of one, holistic circuit. As a thought experiment, coil up your power lead inside the case of your gear somehow, and just have the plug sticking out the back, and butt up the cabinet to the socket in the wall to plug it in - not quite so magically irrelevant to the SQ, now, hmmm?

 

I use versions of Paul's simple trick all the time, as a sloppy "does it make a difference??" ...


Frank

 

http://artofaudioconjuring.blogspot.com/

 

 

Ahhh, Mankind ... Porsche intellect, Trabant emotions ...

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On 4/13/2019 at 5:49 PM, pkane2001 said:

 

It has a built in filter network. A capacitor across the two wires will conduct RF, in effect creating a short for RF-induced frequencies. 

Maybe, or maybe the build of the cable just has a lot of Capacitance without having any added capacitors or resistors.  For example, a star quad cable geometry increases C over a single twisted pair.  The AC line itself has enough R to be a factor at very high noise frequencies.


ROON: DSD 256-Signature Rendu optical--Buffalo PRO (ESS 9038) or DSC-2--Ncore 400 Stereo-Focus Audio FS888-JL E-112 sub-Nordost Tyr USB, Nordost Frey XLR & speaker, DIY AC cables-Synergistic Blue & Hi Fi Tuning Supreme Cu Fuses, Dark Matter system clarifiers.    Design/Build Consultant with Sonore

 

                                                                                                  SONORE computer audio

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14 minutes ago, barrows said:

Maybe, or maybe the build of the cable just has a lot of Capacitance without having any added capacitors or resistors.  For example, a star quad cable geometry increases C over a single twisted pair.  The AC line itself has enough R to be a factor at very high noise frequencies.

 

No need to speculate. In the demo video he mentions a discrete line filter built into the IEC connector, something also used with their higher-end power cables.

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2 hours ago, gmgraves said:

I strongly urge everyone who is reading this thread to read what Mark Waldrep (Dr. AIX) has to say about this subject. While reading it, keep in mind the old adage: "A chain is only as strong as its weakest link"

 

http://tinyurl.com/yycypm3h

He did not say anything, he merely re-posted a letter from a "bona-fide electrical engineer", wow, I am so impressed!

 


ROON: DSD 256-Signature Rendu optical--Buffalo PRO (ESS 9038) or DSC-2--Ncore 400 Stereo-Focus Audio FS888-JL E-112 sub-Nordost Tyr USB, Nordost Frey XLR & speaker, DIY AC cables-Synergistic Blue & Hi Fi Tuning Supreme Cu Fuses, Dark Matter system clarifiers.    Design/Build Consultant with Sonore

 

                                                                                                  SONORE computer audio

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6 hours ago, barrows said:

10-4, one thing to be aware of is how a filter network might, or might not, interact with the component it is plugged into.  Quite a few audio components have such a filter built in at their AC input; depending on parts values, filter networks like these joined together from AC cable to component can have bad interactions (resonances) sometimes.  Given this possibility, I suspect that the use of these cables with some components may produce undesirable results.  I would suggest anyone trying a cable like this with a built in filter, to try before before they commit to purchasing.  The same holds true for most passive line conditioners, although to a lesser extent (as the filter networks are going to be somewhat damped by the resistance of the power cable).  Ideally, the AC line, power conditioner, power cable, and component would be considered as a Network, and designed to work together to provide whatever filtering effect is necessary for best performance, but of course, in most cases, this is not possible.

These kind of interactions are likely responsible for the variable success of power cables, and line conditioners in different systems and with different components: always remember that the AC line, AC conditioner, power cable, and the AC input circuit of a component is a system, and everything needs to work together copacetically to produce good results.  Just because a reviewer might give power cable A an amazing review, does not necessarily mean it will have the same result in your system.

 

Yes. The power cord with included filtering action, in combination with the device it's feeding is a single circuit; the behaviours can't be separated - adding bits and pieces ad hoc is at the level of an automotive enthusast, who says, I know! I'll improve my engine by chucking in the power injection system of a Jaguar, the computer from a Ferrari, and the radiator of a Lamborghini; all that Extra Goodness is bound to make my car very special! :D


Frank

 

http://artofaudioconjuring.blogspot.com/

 

 

Ahhh, Mankind ... Porsche intellect, Trabant emotions ...

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13 minutes ago, barrows said:

He did not say anything, he merely re-posted a letter from a "bona-fide electrical engineer", wow, I am so impressed!

 

He did more than that! He showed how weak the “links” were both before and after that silly $2000 “boutique” mains cable. Which illustrates perfectly why such a cable can’t possibly have any effect on the downstream audio of any component that employs such a cable (except perhaps in the imagination of the purchaser of such a cable!). Now, if the rest of the mains supply was of similar quality to the boutique cable, there might be something to this mains cable nonsense - but, it isn’t.


George

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ok, I am going to try to argue in favor of an AC power cable affecting SQ...

 

It is the closest (or first) piece of AC cable to the component in question, not just the last part of an electrical distribution chain.

 

As the closest AC cable to the enclosure, it picks up radiated noise (RF) and then conducts it into the component.

 

Now, this RF noise gets past the transformer and into the circuit.  This happens either by magik, or by a parasitic leakage (via the 'ghost' circuit of capacitive coupling).


"The overwhelming majority [of audiophiles] have very little knowledge, if any, about the most basic principles and operating characteristics of audio equipment. They often base their purchasing decisions on hearsay, and the preaching of media sages. Unfortunately, because of commercial considerations, much information is rooted in increasing revenue, not in assisting the audiophile. It seems as if the only requirements for becoming an "authority" in the world of audio is a keyboard."

-- Bruce Rozenblit of Transcendent Sound

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Yes, electrons have no class - they don't get that well behaved members of their mob should stay inside the blingy outsides of their box; and that the badly behaved fellows should take note of the Do Not Enter! signs at the various holes in the back ...


Frank

 

http://artofaudioconjuring.blogspot.com/

 

 

Ahhh, Mankind ... Porsche intellect, Trabant emotions ...

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The avforum guys are typical of lazy techs that infest the audio world. (And others?)  I was in a company involved in product development in the late '90s for initial manufacturing under contract with Shunyata, though I had not with any measure of the expertise that Caelin Gabriel brought.  If you wonder what the cables do, test them.  The visual results on scopes are available on their website videos and in some general figures.  They began with two technologies new to the civilian space: environmental noise reduction using ferroelectrics in loose granules (FeSi), and using large-volume conductors (QR/BB) to increase electron and hole availability.  Of course there are many subtleties to those designs that Shunyata have developed in recent years.  The combined effects make your gear lower in noise and (for analog gear) louder.  Yep, louder.  The overall energy increase is tiny, but the perceived volume increases around 2dB.  That comes from lower rise times at extremes of voltage and current.  Go ahead and measure, but bring some really good gear for the purpose.

 

The avsforum guys also punted on cable geometry, citing Blue Jeans as a reference.  Lazy!     


Mac Mini 2012 with 2.3 GHz i5 CPU and 16GB RAM running newest OS10.9x and Signalyst HQ Player software (occasionally JRMC), ethernet to Cisco SG100-08 GigE switch, ethernet to SOtM SMS100 Miniserver in audio room, sending via short 1/2 meter AQ Cinnamon USB to Oppo 105D, feeding balanced outputs to 2x Bel Canto S300 amps which vertically biamp ATC SCM20SL speakers, 2x Velodyne DD12+ subs. Each side is mounted vertically on 3-tiered Sound Anchor ADJ2 stands: ATC (top), amp (middle), sub (bottom), Mogami, Koala, Nordost, Mosaic cables, split at the preamp outputs with splitters. All transducers are thoroughly and lovingly time aligned for the listening position.

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On 4/13/2019 at 2:17 PM, AudioDoctor said:

Magic...

 

Actually, the Electrons are bored by time they get to your house and they are just bouncing through the motions from atom to atom without any real direction in life. Then they see you provided nicer digs for them and they get happy and excited, this in turn makes the music really POP out of the speakers from all the buzz and excitement of happy electrons flowing into your stereo!

 

You guys got way too serious about a tongue in cheek satirical article and totally missed my brilliant explanation of how it works...


“Waste no more time arguing what a good man should be. Be One.” – Marcus Aurelius

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I am charmed by your explanation, and will eat a quark in your honor if I can find Mr. Muark to buy one from....


"The overwhelming majority [of audiophiles] have very little knowledge, if any, about the most basic principles and operating characteristics of audio equipment. They often base their purchasing decisions on hearsay, and the preaching of media sages. Unfortunately, because of commercial considerations, much information is rooted in increasing revenue, not in assisting the audiophile. It seems as if the only requirements for becoming an "authority" in the world of audio is a keyboard."

-- Bruce Rozenblit of Transcendent Sound

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Don't eat too many quarks, I think that's how you end up with a glut of free radicals...

 

And any politician will tell you, that's bad...


“Waste no more time arguing what a good man should be. Be One.” – Marcus Aurelius

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7 hours ago, Ralf11 said:

Now, this RF noise gets past the transformer and into the circuit.  This happens either by magik, or by a parasitic leakage (via the 'ghost' circuit of capacitive coupling).

 The passage of noise is actually measure to pass into the circuit and presumably measured to continue through it, all the way, through all components? I'd be interested to see the  work. I don't believe in magik. 

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7 hours ago, Sam Lord said:

That comes from lower rise times at extremes of voltage and current.  Go ahead and measure, but bring some really good gear for the purpose.

 

 Then that won't help Class A amplifiers, especially those with Regulated PSUs.


"If you can't hear the difference between an original CD and a copy of your CD,

you might as well give up your career as a tester. The difference between a reconstituted FLAC and full size WAV is much less than that, but it does exist. - Cookie Marenco"

 

PROFILE UPDATED 31-10-2018

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9 hours ago, Ralf11 said:

ok, I am going to try to argue in favor of an AC power cable affecting SQ...

 

It is the closest (or first) piece of AC cable to the component in question, not just the last part of an electrical distribution chain.

But it’s not. The mains fuse in the component’s chassis and the skinny 18 gauge internal wire from the IEC connector to the power switch and to the power transformer in the component is the closest (or first)piece of AC cabling.

Quote

 

As the closest AC cable to the enclosure, it picks up radiated noise (RF) and then conducts it into the component.

If there is any. Keep in mind that a component’s power transformer makes a very effective low-pass filter that has little response to RF frequencies. In other words, RF interference rarely gets transferred to the transformer’s secondary winding. That means that shielding, no matter how good, will be as effective as all that iron in the unit’s power transformer.

 

Quote

 

Now, this RF noise gets past the transformer and into the circuit.  This happens either by magik, or by a parasitic leakage (via the 'ghost' circuit of capacitive coupling).

Possible but unlikely. Even were that a real world issue, There is no reason for shielded mains cable to (A) be the size of a baby’s arm, or (B) cost an arm and a leg.😊


George

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1 hour ago, gmgraves said:

Keep in mind that a component’s power transformer makes a very effective low-pass filter that has little response to RF frequencies. In other words, RF interference rarely gets transferred to the transformer’s secondary winding. 

 

 

In normal (aka differential) mode, this is true. But then you'll also have a bank of reservoir caps to help with the filtering. However its not the case for common mode, particularly if the transformer's a toroidal.

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