Newbie setup for Streaming / Transport

[abulr]

Hi All,

 

Been spending quite a few days trying to search for a Sticky/FAQ/Newbie-101 thing but haven't, so here it goes.
My current setup is a Macbook -> DAC -> Receiver -> Speakers
My Receiver is a Kyocera R-451 and speakers are Linn Kan II

All my music is on my Macbook in iTunes, I want to get away from relying on that.
Basically want to be able to play the same files from the same library using our iPhones and/or iPad.
But we would prefer to stay in the Apple infrastructure for streaming (iTunes/Airport etc).

 

First off I need to move the music files off the Macbook.

I thought of going the NAS route, but honestly my library is generally pretty static - I don't update it often, and I don't buy a lot of new music (will do that on Vinyl as I just got a turntable). So I don't need a RAID setup. Will just backup manually.
A cheap option was to get an old Airport and plug external USB onto that and have your library there?

Someone suggested going the Allo route - but the problem is, I genuinely cannot say what "Plug & Play" device does exactly what (on their website) - I emailed their support more than a week ago and haven't gotten a response (which is an automatic no-no/warning sign for buying from a company - for me)... 

I have setup an RaspberryPi server at another location for Plex. So I feel comfortable in Linux.

I was going to get an RPi with a good S/PDIF HAT (but I've also read that both USB and Ethernet are better than S/PDIF?)

Possibly plug in external HDD to that and have that be the Shairport server.

Any and all feedback is appreciated

Thanks in advance

[abulr]

12 hours ago, Paul R said:

Well, it may sound different, but Roon isn't really playing that. It would sound different because at a minimum, it is going to a different DAC. More likely, it is going to a different computer and a different DAC. 

 

What's actually playing the music in that screenshot is the DAC in my PreSonus 1810c. Roon is just delivering the information to it. Okay, technically, the Roon software running on my Mac (i.e. the Bridge part of it) is noting all the audio interfaces attached to my Mac and their settings, and all the network interfaces published on the network, and making them all available for the Roon server to stream to, just like a application level network switch. Which, is what Roon actually is a software implementation of. 

 

So the Roon server is commanded to stream to the particular interface, notes that interface is serviced by my Mac, and routes the network stream to hear. Then my Mac is responsible for sending the network stream over a USB-C interface to the DAC. Would work the same if I have the Proton attached, and iFi DAC attached, or any other DAC attached. 

 

For example, when I want to stream DSD to the PeachTree Nova 150, which has a most excellent ESS DAC inside of it, the Roon server looks up where the Peachtree is attached, notes that the controller for it (i.e computer) is a micro Rendu and routers the traffic there. It doesn't really know the the micro Rendu is attached to the DAC via USB, but through the microRendu, it interrogated the DAC and knows exactly what formats and resolutions the DAC will accept. 

 

So, for example, when I want to send DSD128 music to the Peachtree, Roon notes that Peachy will happily consume DD129 formatted music files all day long. When I want to play the same much in my bedroom, it hits a  Wavelength Proton. Roon notes the Proton only accepts up to 24/96kbs, and seamlessly and without me taking any action, transcodes it to 24/96. There is sometimes a second of delay before the Walvelenght Proton starts playing the first song. 

 

So to answer you question, it was actually recorded off the 1810c, so it really does sound perfect there to me - meaning exactly the same as when I monitored it during recording. As a experiment (one I had actually never thought of before, thank you for bringing it up.... :)) I played the same song:

• Routed through the 1810C to headphones 
• Routed through the 1810C to routed to Peachy
• Routed to my Mac with headphones - a little high frequency rolloff
• Routed to my iPhone with and without headphones,
• Routed to my iPad with and without headphones
• Routed to Peachy's DAC via the uRendu, played out the Harbeth P3ESRs -
• Routed to Peachy's DAC via the uRendu, played to the Maggie MMGs - 
• Routed to an iFi iDSD Micro BL via my Mac, two different headphones

Of course, they all sounded different in the same way they usually do, but to the best of perhaps limited ability, the playback was always at the best quality of the destination device. I don't think that Roon changed the sound at all. 

 

Hope that helps a bit. Can't imagine why I never did the before. 

 

-Paul 

 

 

wow - all sorts of wow
Roon is amazing indeed, it seems
but unlike you i'll only have one setup with one set of speakers... 
the 1810C is something I had not heard of - (looks like a pricier version of my Komplete Audio 6) why go from that to Peachtree (DAC to DAC?) in your setup 2 above

[abulr]

12 hours ago, Paul R said:

Well, it may sound different, but Roon isn't really playing that. It would sound different because at a minimum, it is going to a different DAC. More likely, it is going to a different computer and a different DAC. 

 

What's actually playing the music in that screenshot is the DAC in my PreSonus 1810c. Roon is just delivering the information to it. Okay, technically, the Roon software running on my Mac (i.e. the Bridge part of it) is noting all the audio interfaces attached to my Mac and their settings, and all the network interfaces published on the network, and making them all available for the Roon server to stream to, just like a application level network switch. Which, is what Roon actually is a software implementation of. 

 

So the Roon server is commanded to stream to the particular interface, notes that interface is serviced by my Mac, and routes the network stream to hear. Then my Mac is responsible for sending the network stream over a USB-C interface to the DAC. Would work the same if I have the Proton attached, and iFi DAC attached, or any other DAC attached. 

 

For example, when I want to stream DSD to the PeachTree Nova 150, which has a most excellent ESS DAC inside of it, the Roon server looks up where the Peachtree is attached, notes that the controller for it (i.e computer) is a micro Rendu and routers the traffic there. It doesn't really know the the micro Rendu is attached to the DAC via USB, but through the microRendu, it interrogated the DAC and knows exactly what formats and resolutions the DAC will accept. 

 

So, for example, when I want to send DSD128 music to the Peachtree, Roon notes that Peachy will happily consume DD129 formatted music files all day long. When I want to play the same much in my bedroom, it hits a  Wavelength Proton. Roon notes the Proton only accepts up to 24/96kbs, and seamlessly and without me taking any action, transcodes it to 24/96. There is sometimes a second of delay before the Walvelenght Proton starts playing the first song. 

 

So to answer you question, it was actually recorded off the 1810c, so it really does sound perfect there to me - meaning exactly the same as when I monitored it during recording. As a experiment (one I had actually never thought of before, thank you for bringing it up.... :)) I played the same song:

• Routed through the 1810C to headphones 
• Routed through the 1810C to routed to Peachy
• Routed to my Mac with headphones - a little high frequency rolloff
• Routed to my iPhone with and without headphones,
• Routed to my iPad with and without headphones
• Routed to Peachy's DAC via the uRendu, played out the Harbeth P3ESRs -
• Routed to Peachy's DAC via the uRendu, played to the Maggie MMGs - 
• Routed to an iFi iDSD Micro BL via my Mac, two different headphones

Of course, they all sounded different in the same way they usually do, but to the best of perhaps limited ability, the playback was always at the best quality of the destination device. I don't think that Roon changed the sound at all. 

 

Hope that helps a bit. Can't imagine why I never did the before. 

 

-Paul 

 

 

wow - all sorts of wow
Roon is amazing indeed, it seems
but unlike you i'll only have one setup with one set of speakers... 
the 1810C is something I had not heard of - (looks like a pricier version of my Komplete Audio 6) why go from that to Peachtree (DAC to DAC?) in your setup 2 above

[abulr]

11 hours ago, lucretius said:

 

Pioneer N-50

Marantz NA6006

Yamaha WXC-50

Cambridge Audio CXN v2

 

The latter one is really nice but a little more expensive than the first three.

 

If you wanted, you could store the music on your iPhone or iPad and stream it to one of the players noted above with the mconnect media player app (DLNA/UPnP) or without the mconnect app, you could simply use Airplay.

 

 

library too big to put on iphone or ipad... and that's before converting to lossless (from 320)... as i plan to do

[abulr]

22 hours ago, Cebolla said:

 

The Airport Express's USB port is only intended to connect a USB printer to, nothing else:

https://support.apple.com/sk-sk/HT201712

 

Even if it could, I wouldn't recommend using it just to host the USB drive's audio files on a networked shared folder. You'd still require another networked device to run the media server software to supply those files to the vast majority of network players/streamers that can't access networked shared folders - which unnecessarily at least doubles the amount of data passing through the network (a possible major headache if your WiFi is not so good), never mind the extra cost consideration of requiring another networked device!

 

The versatile, low cost, low powered, reliable RPi can be used as a 24/7 'NAS', as you can both connect a USB drive to it and run media server software on it.

 

thank you for reminding me... even the Printer (now that I recall) was a bit of a headache... many years ago (wasn't a straight forward setup)

as per the RPi... i am talking myself into spending $150 more and going w MacMini (for now)
mainly cause support for Allo seems to be awful, and these RPi + HAT solutions seem like a fair bit of work for not a fair bit of increase in sound quality (vs Mac Mini)... pls correct me if i'm wrong on that assumption

[Paul R]

45 minutes ago, abulr said:

 

wow - all sorts of wow
Roon is amazing indeed, it seems
but unlike you i'll only have one setup with one set of speakers... 
the 1810C is something I had not heard of - (looks like a pricier version of my Komplete Audio 6) why go from that to Peachtree (DAC to DAC?) in your setup 2 above

 

I wasn't that clear, sorry, suffering from sleep deprivation lately. 

 

I routed the analog output from the Studio 1810c to an analog line level input on Peachy. This is the setup I use to check recordings I made on headphones using speakers in a real room, or more often, with near-field listening. 

 

Don't forget, not only your main system becomes available on your home network, but also you can play any of your music directly to your phone and.or tablets as well. I was pretty well amazed when I realized that my music wasn't confined to just the main system any longer, but was available pretty much anywhere.

 

It's also liberating in an odd sort of way. Now, I choose the system to listen to whatever music I want to hear on, rather than choosing from the music that resides on a specific system. It's sneaky, and subversive, but one of the most powerful things ever about digital music. My better half says that it frees up your appreciation for the music, and increases your appreciation of whatever hardware you might have.  

 

-Paul

 

P.S. The systems here are not really that impressive, they are just chosen to fit well with my and my family's needs and preferences. I believe that is actually the key to being happy with audio as a hobby.

[Paul R]

2 hours ago, abulr said:

library too big to put on iphone or ipad... and that's before converting to lossless (from 320)... as i plan to do

 

Uh, one thing to note, converting a 320bps MP3 to a lossless format, will not restore whatever the MP3 conversion process threw away. To get true lossless files, you willl need to re-rip the music files.  

 

The good news is that 320bps MP3s, like 256kbs AAC files, are as close to indistinguishable from CD quality as it is possible to be. So keeping your files in MP3 format, and just being sure to add new files as lossless, would probably be a good plan. You won’t lose any quality, and you might try transcoding the MP3s on-the-fly to DSD or 24/96kbs. The key there is to experiment I think. 

 

-Paul

[abulr]

36 minutes ago, Paul R said:

 

Uh, one thing to note, converting a 320bps MP3 to a lossless format, will not restore whatever the MP3 conversion process threw away. To get true lossless files, you willl need to re-rip the music files.  

 

The good news is that 320bps MP3s, like 256kbs AAC files, are as close to indistinguishable from CD quality as it is possible to be. So keeping your files in MP3 format, and just being sure to add new files as lossless, would probably be a good plan. You won’t lose any quality, and you might try transcoding the MP3s on-the-fly to DSD or 24/96kbs. The key there is to experiment I think. 

 

-Paul

 

thank you - this one i knew... which is why i haven't started yet...
any recommendations for an application to rip to DSD or 24/96 (on Mac)?

[abulr]

2 hours ago, Paul R said:

 

I wasn't that clear, sorry, suffering from sleep deprivation lately. 

 

I routed the analog output from the Studio 1810c to an analog line level input on Peachy. This is the setup I use to check recordings I made on headphones using speakers in a real room, or more often, with near-field listening. 

 

Don't forget, not only your main system becomes available on your home network, but also you can play any of your music directly to your phone and.or tablets as well. I was pretty well amazed when I realized that my music wasn't confined to just the main system any longer, but was available pretty much anywhere.

 

It's also liberating in an odd sort of way. Now, I choose the system to listen to whatever music I want to hear on, rather than choosing from the music that resides on a specific system. It's sneaky, and subversive, but one of the most powerful things ever about digital music. My better half says that it frees up your appreciation for the music, and increases your appreciation of whatever hardware you might have.  

 

-Paul

 

P.S. The systems here are not really that impressive, they are just chosen to fit well with my and my family's needs and preferences. I believe that is actually the key to being happy with audio as a hobby.

 

idk ... the MMGs are quite impressive to me

and yes when I full like pulling a $500 trigger... you've sold me on Roon for sure

if I get the lifetime - is it only for one house/location, I presume? or can I use my license in say a weekend home or another apt?

[Paul R]

18 minutes ago, abulr said:

 

thank you - this one i knew... which is why i haven't started yet...
any recommendations for an application to rip to DSD or 24/96 (on Mac)?

 

XLD is my favorite, and what I ripped most of my collection with. Also, free.

 

iTunes and/or VortexBox  tie for my second place favorite. 

 

dbPoweramp is a third place for me, but some people love it. Especially folks familiar with the PC version. 

[Paul R]

28 minutes ago, abulr said:

 

idk ... the MMGs are quite impressive to me

and yes when I full like pulling a $500 trigger... you've sold me on Roon for sure

if I get the lifetime - is it only for one house/location, I presume? or can I use my license in say a weekend home or another apt?

 

You can license one server at a time, but no problem moving that one license to as many physical or virtual machines as you wish.  So yep, weekend homes, pats, etc. All good.

 

And Roon server has an effectively unlimited number of clients. 

 

You can also virtualize your server and take a copy with you. Since the server is not directly driving a DAC, using a VM works really well. 

 

Also, if you really want the ultimate in portability, you can rig up a VPN. It is a bit of a techie solution, but, for example... my iPhone can  VPN back to home and a start a session with the MacMini, then Bluetooth the audio to the system in my Jeep. An iPhone, a pair of headphones, and voila! Music pretty much anywhere!

 

 

[lucretius]

2 hours ago, Paul R said:

dbPoweramp is a third place for me, but some people love it. Especially folks familiar with the PC version. 

 

While many programs can change file formats (e.g. AIFF to flac) using the same sample rate and preserve the bits, for changing sample rates and/or converting from DSD to PCM, dBpoweramp is one of the best http://src.infinitewave.ca/. Also, dBpoweramp cannot convert PCM to DSD (only the other way around) -- although you wouldn't want to unless you really want to change filters, etc. However, JRiver Media Center can convert from PCM to DSD.

[lucretius]

6 hours ago, abulr said:

library too big to put on iphone or ipad... and that's before converting to lossless (from 320)... as i plan to do

 

You don't have to put the library on the iPhone or iPad, it was just an option. You could have the music server on a computer or NAS and use the iPhone or iPad as a controller.  The equipment noted (ie. Pioneer N-50, Marantz NA6006,Yamaha WXC-50, and Cambridge Audio CXN v2) are just endpoints. Further, these devices can stream from streaming services and internet radio without using a computer.

[abulr]

3 hours ago, Paul R said:

You can also virtualize your server and take a copy with you. Since the server is not directly driving a DAC, using a VM works really well. 

I'm not sure I follow the VM portion - you make your server a VM and then how do you "take a copy with you"?
 

Quote

Also, if you really want the ultimate in portability, you can rig up a VPN. It is a bit of a techie solution, but, for example... my iPhone can  VPN back to home and a start a session with the MacMini, then Bluetooth the audio to the system in my Jeep. An iPhone, a pair of headphones, and voila! Music pretty much anywhere!

 

This part is pretty bad a$$ and has real appeal to me... 

 

[abulr]

44 minutes ago, lucretius said:

 

You don't have to put the library on the iPhone or iPad, it was just an option. You could have the music server on a computer or NAS and use the iPhone or iPad as a controller.  The equipment noted (ie. Pioneer N-50, Marantz NA6006,Yamaha WXC-50, and Cambridge Audio CXN v2) are just endpoints. Further, these devices can stream from streaming services and internet radio without using a computer.

 

awesome... so most likely will go Mac Mini + external HD running mconnect (for now) and USB out to my DAC

[Paul R]

1 hour ago, abulr said:

I'm not sure I follow the VM portion - you make your server a VM and then how do you "take a copy with you"?
 

 

I am sorry, I didn't mean to jump way ahead and introduce more complexity for you.  In general, a VM is a [V]irtual [M]achine, running under a product like VMWare, Xen,  Parallels, or a dozen other similar programs. 

 

Essentially on a Mac, you start VMWare, and then under VMWare, you boot say, a copy of Linux. Or of Windows, or a copy of each if you have enough processor and memory. Once booted, there is an entire copy of Linux or Windows running as a desktop or a Window on your Mac. Pretty cool. The really cool part though, is VMWare for instance, stores the 10's of thousands of files on a Windows disk drive as a single (1) file on the Macintosh. In total, a typical virtual machine is a half dozen files on the host machine 

 

 

So to take a VM "with you" you simply copy those half dozen files or so to an inexpensive USB drive and pack it in your bag. (The files can be very big!)  Once you arrive wherever, as long as you have a computer and it has at lest the freeware VMplayer software installed, you can boot the VM an be back in buis

 

Quote

 

This part is pretty bad a$$ and has real appeal to me... 

 

 

LOL!  Good. You can do it with several audio products and players. 

 

[abulr]

15 hours ago, Paul R said:

The really cool part though, is VMWare for instance, stores the 10's of thousands of files on a Windows disk drive as a single (1) file on the Macintosh. In total, a typical virtual machine is a half dozen files on the host machine 

 

this is the part I didn't know... awesome!