Popular Post firedog Posted April 10, 2019 Popular Post Share Posted April 10, 2019 2 hours ago, STC said: Sir Martin? I still remember the quote " why would they want to do that?" when stereo was introduced during the Beatles recording session the very first time. I'm willing to bet that's another not accurate quote. The Beatles first album was done in both stereo and mono (excluding the previously released material that wasn't recorded in stereo). At their very first recording sessions for Love Me Do, etc. Martin was just fulfilling a contractual obligation to record 4 songs. There was an assumption in house that once the songs had been recorded (not even released), that would be the end of it. Martin signed the Beatles to the contract mostly because the music publishing arm of EMI liked a couple of their songs and wanted the rights. He may very well not have signed them at all if it wasn't for that. Of course things changed once the songs were recorded and actually released. Sir George certainly didn't believe in the "absolute sound"; he saw the studio and technology as another "instrument" which he could use to get the result he wanted. This predates his time with the Beatles and can be seen in the various music and comedy recordings he did with Parlaphone before the Beatles ever arrived at Abbey Road. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Please_Please_Me: Quote The album was recorded on a two-track BTR tape machine with most of the instruments on one track and the vocals on the other, allowing Martin to better balance the two in the final mono mix.[14] A stereo mix was also made with one track on the left channel and the other on the right, as well as an added layer of reverb to better blend the two tracks together. The two tracks generally divided the instrumental track from the vocals, with the exception of "Boys", in which the close proximity of Ringo's drums to his vocal microphone placed the drums (but not the other instruments) on the vocal channel. Two tracks, "Love Me Do" and "P.S. I Love You", were only mixed for mono for the single's release and no stereo versions were ever made, so, for the stereo version of the album, during the mixing sessions on 25 February 1963, Martin created "mock stereo" versions by emphasising low frequencies on one side and high frequencies on the other.[21] Teresa and Jud 1 1 Main listening (small home office): Main setup: Surge protector +>Isol-8 Mini sub Axis Power Strip/Isolation>QuietPC Low Noise Server>Roon (Audiolense DRC)>Stack Audio Link II>Kii Control>Kii Three (on their own electric circuit) >GIK Room Treatments. Secondary Path: Server with Audiolense RC>RPi4 or analog>Cayin iDAC6 MKII (tube mode) (XLR)>Kii Three . Bedroom: SBTouch to Cambridge Soundworks Desktop Setup. Living Room/Kitchen: Ropieee (RPi3b+ with touchscreen) + Schiit Modi3E to a pair of Morel Hogtalare. All absolute statements about audio are false Link to comment
Popular Post firedog Posted April 10, 2019 Popular Post Share Posted April 10, 2019 17 minutes ago, STC said: As far as know Beatles preferred Mono and made their recordings in mono. It was the under the US agents pressure Martin released his mixed mono as stereo. OTOH, they probably sounded different with big soundstage because they were mixed for speaker that were separated by 2 or 3 feet. In order to have a big soundstage the mono tracks were hard panned to the extreme so that you get a typical 60 degrees speakers. Not accurate. They preferred mono, yes, because it was the dominant format for their fans equipment in the UK till about 67-68 or so. Doesn't mean they didn't mix for stereo or only record in mono. As noted above, their first album was also mixed to stereo at the time it was recorded and it was intended only for the UK market at that time. Their other albums were also all mixed to stereo. Basically, with a few songs as exceptions, their entire catalog was done in both mono and stereo, except for Let it Be and Abbey Road, which were done only in stereo, as by 1969 it was clear that the market had changed so that mono wasn't really necessary. Josh Mound, Jud and Teresa 1 1 1 Main listening (small home office): Main setup: Surge protector +>Isol-8 Mini sub Axis Power Strip/Isolation>QuietPC Low Noise Server>Roon (Audiolense DRC)>Stack Audio Link II>Kii Control>Kii Three (on their own electric circuit) >GIK Room Treatments. Secondary Path: Server with Audiolense RC>RPi4 or analog>Cayin iDAC6 MKII (tube mode) (XLR)>Kii Three . Bedroom: SBTouch to Cambridge Soundworks Desktop Setup. Living Room/Kitchen: Ropieee (RPi3b+ with touchscreen) + Schiit Modi3E to a pair of Morel Hogtalare. All absolute statements about audio are false Link to comment
firedog Posted April 10, 2019 Share Posted April 10, 2019 5 hours ago, STC said: I can't recall everything about Beatles now as I was gathering information on stereo development at the time. Anyway, here is something which may help to throw some light on this discussion which has now gone out of topic. " Martin: Four-track was the earliest thing we had and that wasn’t until 1965. From ’62 to ’65 we didn’t have four-track. We had mono--mono was the thing. Mono was all that pop records were. Stereo was reserved for classical. Stereo wasn’t considered to be in any way useful to pop record because it dissipated the sound... MF: ...on the radio... Martin: ...and pop had to hit you square on the nose. And so it was considered irrelevant. Very few people had stereo machines anyway. And if they did, they generally had them in cabinets where the speakers were about a foot apart, so you couldn’t really tell. So mono was the thing. But I took a stereo machine and separated the tracks and made it into a twin-track machine. So when we recorded the Beatles live as we did, we didn’t overdub. I would keep the voices on one track and put the backing on another, so when they went home I could then mix it down and keep the voice forward--but at the same time get plenty of impact. I wouldn’t have to do it on the spot. So that gave me time. MF: And there was some leakage between the two tracks because they were playing live...? Martin: Of course. MF: But it was amazing separation! Martin: Yes, but then, in the instrumental where the voices stop, all the shit comes out on that track from elsewhere. When I first heard what they’d been doing, I was horrified. But they just did. And I didn’t find out 'till afterwards, and it was too late. But the worst thing is: The people got used to this and loved it! They liked to be able to turn up the voices in songs. So I was hoisted with my own petard here. I couldn’t protest anymore. I was saying, “Why do you do this? It’s a travesty!” But then they’d say, “The people like it!” MF: But that came out in England also—the stereo With the Beatles. Martin: It did. By this time I’d left EMI, and I had no power there at all. I left EMI in 1965 to start my own company. Up to ’65 I was the head of Parlophone Records, so what I said went--as far as Parlophone was concerned. But once I left, I had no authority...apart from complaining. MF: Back to those Capitol tracks: They were in mono, I assume. Martin: Yes, "Baby, You’re a Rich Man," "Penny Lane," and "All You Need is Love" should have been mono. Read more at https://www.analogplanet.com/content/sir-george-martin-interview-part-two-0#ZEV6pzrSh7tOpvJG.99 " And Beyond this, working in true stereo the way the Beatles wanted to simply wasn’t possible through most of the 1960s. By the time of A Hard Day’s Night in 1964, for example, EMI had taken delivery of several new four-track machines, but that remained the state of the art for the next several years. And four tracks is far short of the number necessary to create what we might think of as a “modern” recording - with stereo drums, stereo instruments and stereo voices. Since early stereo attempts tended to sound clumsy and primitive, the Beatles gave up on the format until better times arrived. It wasn’t until 1968, when they began using eight-track machines, that they began giving real attention to stereo. In the Beatles’ minds, we should remember, it was always more important for a record to be musically good than for it to be compatible with some new, gimmicky format. The Beatles had been raised on mono. All their early records were mono. The radio they listened to was mono. And so it’s natural that, as they began recording, mono remained their chief form of public expression. From 1962 until 1968 the Beatles would record their songs, create mono masters with George Martin plus either Norman Smith (1962-65) or Geoff Emerick (1966-67), and then go off on tour or holiday, leaving the stereo mixes to be done solely under Martin’s supervision. Stereo tapes were often couriered to Capitol in New York without the Beatles ever hearing them at all. Wow, are your just trying to inform us of something you think we don’t know about or are you arguing a non-existent argument? All of this is known. They didn’t have the setup to do stereo the way we do it now. So what? In the 50’s a lot of tracks were recorded on only 3 tracks and then mixed to stereo. Even “Kind of Blue”. Doesn’t mean it isn’t stereo. It also doesn’t mean the Beatles songs weren’t quite deliberately mixed and recorded to stereo. No one has said the Beatles didn’t have an orientation towards mono. But you are over interpreting based on seeing a few quotes. Yes stereo mixes were deliberately produced also for release in the UK, not just for the US. All the albums were intentionally mixed to stereo and not just for the US. Nothing you quoted contradicts that. You simply are thinking you understand those quotes without knowing the context. Sgt. Pepper is a good example. The Beatles spent 3 solid weeks working on the mono mix with Geoff Emerick and GM, which was the most important one to them. When it was done, they basically said, “You know what we want now, so you can do the stereo without us”. Doesn’t mean it wasn’t intentionally done and not just for the US market. And yes, there were some odd and fake stereo mixes made by Capitol. The were so desperate for Beatles songs to fill out all the “extra” albums they made that they would even take mono tapes they were given and make fake stereo. Read “Recording the Beatles” or Mark Lewisohn’s or Geoff Emerick’s books and you will see. Note: The 5 songs for the Magical Mystery Tour TV special were originally intended for release on EP/45 only, weren’t considered by the Beatles to be an “album” and so weren’t originally mixed to stereo. Main listening (small home office): Main setup: Surge protector +>Isol-8 Mini sub Axis Power Strip/Isolation>QuietPC Low Noise Server>Roon (Audiolense DRC)>Stack Audio Link II>Kii Control>Kii Three (on their own electric circuit) >GIK Room Treatments. Secondary Path: Server with Audiolense RC>RPi4 or analog>Cayin iDAC6 MKII (tube mode) (XLR)>Kii Three . Bedroom: SBTouch to Cambridge Soundworks Desktop Setup. Living Room/Kitchen: Ropieee (RPi3b+ with touchscreen) + Schiit Modi3E to a pair of Morel Hogtalare. All absolute statements about audio are false Link to comment
Popular Post firedog Posted April 11, 2019 Popular Post Share Posted April 11, 2019 1 hour ago, Paul R said: By by the way, has anyone noticed that digital has improved so much in the past decade, that even low end hardware stuff sounds very good? Not sure exactly where the point of diminishing returns is theses days, but that point is surely lower than it was before! Yep. That's why some of the audiophile snobbery annoys me. My little $130 ifi DAC device sounds really good. Makes very enjoyable, accurate sound. Not as good as mid to high end stuff - but not that far off. I could definitely "live with it" with no problem. Please don't tell me that If I'm listening with that DAC I can't really judge the sound of what I'm listening to. The simple truth is that for $1 - $2k these days you can buy a few inexpensive components and get very close to state of the art sound - you mainly miss out on bass below about 40hz and the ability to sound good at high volume and to fill a mid to large room with "impact". If you aren't particularly looking for those two features, the diminishing returns curve is VERY steep above that price level. I'm not putting down expensive systems and if I could afford a state of the art 6 figure system I'd probably buy one. But many audiophiles are the kind of people who have the means to spend thousands on very small improvements in their systems. They then describe these incremental improvements as having "lifted the veil", or a giving them a "totally different sound'" - that's usually BS to describe a small improvement. If it's not, their previous setup must not have been very good. Paul R, Teresa, christopher3393 and 1 other 2 2 Main listening (small home office): Main setup: Surge protector +>Isol-8 Mini sub Axis Power Strip/Isolation>QuietPC Low Noise Server>Roon (Audiolense DRC)>Stack Audio Link II>Kii Control>Kii Three (on their own electric circuit) >GIK Room Treatments. Secondary Path: Server with Audiolense RC>RPi4 or analog>Cayin iDAC6 MKII (tube mode) (XLR)>Kii Three . Bedroom: SBTouch to Cambridge Soundworks Desktop Setup. Living Room/Kitchen: Ropieee (RPi3b+ with touchscreen) + Schiit Modi3E to a pair of Morel Hogtalare. All absolute statements about audio are false Link to comment
firedog Posted April 11, 2019 Share Posted April 11, 2019 20 minutes ago, Tin said: I have to disagree with you, although I agree with you as well. Consider a F1 car, driving on less than ideal tires. Changing the tires will make a huge difference to the driver. People in lesser cars, even if those are very fast cars in their own right, will not be able to appreciate the difference the upgrade made to the F1 driver. It's a probably bit like that. Yes, but in both cases the driver thinks his car drives like a F1 - he wasn't driving around with truck tires in the first place was he? He doesn't say, boy this car is totally different now. He says - the new tires made it a little bit better. Main listening (small home office): Main setup: Surge protector +>Isol-8 Mini sub Axis Power Strip/Isolation>QuietPC Low Noise Server>Roon (Audiolense DRC)>Stack Audio Link II>Kii Control>Kii Three (on their own electric circuit) >GIK Room Treatments. Secondary Path: Server with Audiolense RC>RPi4 or analog>Cayin iDAC6 MKII (tube mode) (XLR)>Kii Three . Bedroom: SBTouch to Cambridge Soundworks Desktop Setup. Living Room/Kitchen: Ropieee (RPi3b+ with touchscreen) + Schiit Modi3E to a pair of Morel Hogtalare. All absolute statements about audio are false Link to comment
Recommended Posts
Create an account or sign in to comment
You need to be a member in order to leave a comment
Create an account
Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!
Register a new accountSign in
Already have an account? Sign in here.
Sign In Now