Popular Post Tin Posted April 9, 2019 Popular Post Share Posted April 9, 2019 Hi Chris, I understand your frustration, but I can assure you that you'll find hateful forum dwellers on each and every forum, about each and every subject in the world. I've seen it on cars, computer parts, politics, news, and even BBQs, and obviously on music choices and audio equipment as well. I've been on a very heavily modded forum where -every- remark I made mentioning my own brand of equipment, ended up being removed because the brand generated so much hate. From the parts that I could read before the moderation interfered, I was being held responsible for some choices that company made a decade or 2 before I even heard about the brand (*) The moment your life choices imply a statement, somebody will hate you for it. And, being on a forum about any particular subject, people with strong opinions about that subject, will be plentiful. *) Reading this part back, I guess not mentioning my setup by name can be seen as pretentious too... Oh well... mav52, The Computer Audiophile and jtnt 2 1 Link to comment
Popular Post Tin Posted April 10, 2019 Popular Post Share Posted April 10, 2019 6 hours ago, fas42 said: Takes only seconds of system playback to hear that his rig is way out of whack - not worth taking seriously ... as good an example as any of how audiophiles lose the plot; if the intention is to connect to the music ... You're either missing the point of the article spectacularly or you are a troll. - audiophiles don't lose plots. They make choices you may agree or disagree on, but they are their choices and it is their money. - 'to connect to the music' is a very overrated statement, most used by people who have strong opinions about the taste and setups of other people. Everyone should be free to listen, enjoy and connect to music in a way they prefer. 5 hours ago, fas42 said: You don't need to - the YouTube clip passes on all the information to clearly define what the sound is like; I have heard oodles of rigs in person that make those sort of noises. Again, everyone is free to enjoy the sort of noises they like being reproduced in a way they prefer. You probably prefer the sort of noises your setup makes and it gives you the idea that you can connect to the music. Those are very subjective emotions and they have little meaning outside your head. Of course the same goes for my setup, my choice of music and the way they interact with my emotions. Teresa, mav52 and The Computer Audiophile 1 1 1 Link to comment
Popular Post Tin Posted April 10, 2019 Popular Post Share Posted April 10, 2019 I'm really impressed. About half of the responses somehow manage to add a subjective opinion as truth. There is no truth here, just coloured opinions. The Computer Audiophile and Teresa 2 Link to comment
Popular Post Tin Posted April 11, 2019 Popular Post Share Posted April 11, 2019 Please beware when discussing bass. It is a very difficult subject to discuss, as people often use it to describe different things. First, there are different definitions, which can, but do not have to exist next to eachother: - loud bass - punchy bass - deep bass There are probably more definitions I don't know about. This thread is the first time I came across 'audiophile bass' (*), so I'm not able to figure out where it fits in. There is also soggy bass, which quite often is caused by room modes. Another difficulty, in my opinion, with bass is that room dimensions make it very difficult to find a common ground when discussing it. My room, which is quite large, makes it very easy to accomodate long wavelengths, helping my setup in delivering very deep bass. At the same time, the dimensions make it difficult to pressurize the room enough to deliver punchy bass. I would need speakers with arrays of woofers to achieve that. Obviously those speakers would be much larger to accomodate those arrays, and that wouldn't work for me. Room modes can make speakers that work great in one room, make them sound overpowered and soggy in another. My room has a very strong mode (over 20dB!) at around 50Hz, and it made some songs absolutely unlistenable. Another room mode gently lifts the lower end of my setup, which is very helpful for some specific recordings, like the organ in symphony no.3 by St Saens. Luckily my setup has some nice DSP algorithms, so the 50Hz mode can be surpressed. Anyway, please be careful when discussing bass; you could agree and never find out. *) I'm not a native speaker, so it could be just me, but it does sounds polarising, and that never helps. DuckToller, Teresa and Paul R 1 2 Link to comment
Tin Posted April 11, 2019 Share Posted April 11, 2019 44 minutes ago, Paul R said: Then again, I am one whose “joy” is triggered by precise imaging, depth, and clear horns, strings, and vocals. No ear ripping please. I have found that as I age, with slight tinnitus and hearing loss, that is far more important to me than “punchy” bass, though I do enjoy the occasional great bass demo at shows or at friends homes. Just not in my home! By by the way, has anyone noticed that digital has improved so much in the past decade, that even low end hardware stuff sounds very good? Not sure exactly where the point of diminishing returns is theses days, but that point is surely lower than it was before! Instead of going for ear ripping bass, you could try to add a small sub to your setup, supporting the lower end of your speakers at a very moderate level. This will (can?) greatly enhance the soundstage. Last year I was invited to listen a setup with some very expensive components and tiny Klångedang speakers. I had brought an old Rel Stampede with me, and I didn't have to take it back home. 😁 I agree that modern DACs these days are very, very good, even at moderate pricelevels. I'm not so sure about the point of diminishing returns though, I think that is very personal. Or maybe I just want my DAC to be better than a € 75 one.. I dunno... 😇 audiobomber 1 Link to comment
Tin Posted April 11, 2019 Share Posted April 11, 2019 4 minutes ago, firedog said: I'm not putting down expensive systems and if I could afford a state of the art 6 figure system I'd probably buy one. But many audiophiles are the kind of people who have the means to spend thousands on very small improvements in their systems. They then describe these incremental improvements as having "lifted the veil", or a giving them a "totally different sound'" - that's usually BS to describe a small improvement. If it's not, their previous setup must not have been very good. I have to disagree with you, although I agree with you as well. Consider a F1 car, driving on less than ideal tires. Changing the tires will make a huge difference to the driver. People in lesser cars, even if those are very fast cars in their own right, will not be able to appreciate the difference the upgrade made to the F1 driver. It's a probably bit like that. Link to comment
Tin Posted April 11, 2019 Share Posted April 11, 2019 47 minutes ago, firedog said: Yes, but in both cases the driver thinks his car drives like a F1 - he wasn't driving around with truck tires in the first place was he? He doesn't say, boy this car is totally different now. He says - the new tires made it a little bit better. I'm pretty sure I have heard Vettel saying things quite differently. But, quoting Chris quoting Sheryl Crow: "If it makes you happy." Link to comment
Tin Posted April 12, 2019 Share Posted April 12, 2019 8 hours ago, fas42 said: Just go back to having a real musician playing an instrument in that room which keeps exciting those room nodes; a note is played throughout a piece which is bang on a "problem frequency". Do you cringe every time he comes to that note - or does your hearing gracefully compensate for the 'irregularity'? Personally, I just hear the music being made by that live person, not a constant series of irky resonances. In my experience musicians, while first entering a room, will test the acoustic response, and try to adapt to it. I've heard a soprano hitting a particular frequency that really gained waaaay too much energy in small church. During the performance that never happened. She adapted to it. I'm sure you've also noted that a lot of bands mention their sound-guy. There is a reason they bring him along. My music collection is not as adaptive as a musician or a soundguy, so I myself had to take care it. Luckily DSPs these days are very capable, and I have to admit I had a soundguy doing it for me. As for cringing; if you have a track where there are 2 bass notes 'bung and bunng', close together, but everytime you play it, it sounds like 'bung BUNNNGGG bung BUNNNNGGG', yeah, I cringe. There are obviously other less intrusive nodes in my room that are just part of the scenery, but this particular one, really was annoying. If you are happy with your room and what goes on in your head, that is obviously fine with me, and likewise you shouldn't question my room and what goes on in my head. I don't know if you read it, but there is this nice editorial at the beginning of this thread. Link to comment
Tin Posted April 12, 2019 Share Posted April 12, 2019 1 minute ago, fas42 said: If a band is using a sound guy, then it's going through a PA - the sound is now dead meat, bearing little relationship to what anyone on stage is actually producing - some modicum of sanity can be restored to this mess, by 5,000 bits of fiddling ... not something I have much interest in, as a pleasurable experience. This being the main reason I stopped going to any shows - I wasn't going to pay good money to be assaulted by terrible sound ... I'm almost tempted to get into a discussion with you, as I notice some others are trying, but per the subject of this thread, I'm not going to. I wish you all the best. The Computer Audiophile 1 Link to comment
Tin Posted April 13, 2019 Share Posted April 13, 2019 7 hours ago, Confused said: maybe I will try swapping a few cables around, I'm still not sure if they make any difference... Luckily, trying them yourself provides the best results in figuring out if cables matter to you. 😉 My theory is that it is more about shielding than about the cables themselves, and that results differ much depending on the abundance of cable spaghetti, EM noise and the sensitivity of equipment used. It is the only explanation I can come up with that explains why people have such different experiences and strong opinions about them. Obviously this is debatable as well, so I'm already bracing for impact. Link to comment
Tin Posted April 14, 2019 Share Posted April 14, 2019 10 hours ago, Ralf11 said: use Balanced components & interconnects - that will greatly reduce some types of noise I have read that plain RCA provides better S/N over (very) short distances. The writer being the chief engineer of a well known equipment brand. So this general guideline is already debatable. Quote use well-designed components - that will reduce the effects of any noise Well sure, but less-designed equipment will provide so much noise that you may not hear the contribution of cables. So this guideline is debatable as well. Quote cross cables at 90 degrees & try to keep them away from each other I agree full heartedly. In my case, I have 14 RCAs, 9 power cables, a lot of speakercable, UTP, HDMI etc, so I have a severe shortage of 90 degree angles. Keeping them away from each other worked pretty well, considering the challenge. Quote worry about conducted noise more than RFI With my setup, and all the cables, RFI is more of an issue. The quality of components is high enough not having to worry, much, about conducted noise. Once again, debatable. 😊 Quote worry about circuit design more than noise Again this depends on the reality you live in, but as a general guideline, sure. Quote test using single or double blind, levels matched - that will eliminate the effects of confirmation bias (or just buy big phaat cables with a groovey lookin' design on them and be happy) I can't debate either, being happy being the most important. A lot of people are unhappy and start projecting their misery on the equipment of others. Link to comment
Popular Post Tin Posted April 14, 2019 Popular Post Share Posted April 14, 2019 6 hours ago, fas42 said: People get carried away with the impressiveness of blingy looking setups - and think this solves all problems You really worry to much about the choices other people make. If someone enjoys their bling looking setup, just let them enjoy it. Everyone makes choices. I'll give a simple example; if you have a budget A and an amount of spare time B, you have to decide how much time you are going to spend on listening to equipment before buying. Travelling to dealers and shows cost money too, it it will consume both time and money. Everybody has different amounts of money and time and it may be more difficult to get access to brand C over D, or the other way around, so, outcomes will differ. I bought most of my setup when I had little time, as I was working abroad most of the time. The upside being that that increased my budget significantly. So I made my choices based on those parameters. Nobody should judge me about that, nor will I judge others on their choices. And no, my setup isn't 'shiny', but if it would, it would be my business alone. The Computer Audiophile, Teresa and Summit 3 Link to comment
Tin Posted April 14, 2019 Share Posted April 14, 2019 18 minutes ago, Confused said: That sounds like a generalisation. I think you're Confused. 😇 It is more than a generalisation. Most of our history and all but a few cultures revolve around the collection and exchange of shiny objects. We have several senses and to me it seems weird to deny one sense when feeding another. So, enjoy the comfort of your room and favourite chair, the way your equipment looks, your favourite music, while drinking your favourite beverage. It's a hobby, it should be enjoyable me thinks. Paul R 1 Link to comment
Popular Post Tin Posted April 14, 2019 Popular Post Share Posted April 14, 2019 3 minutes ago, fas42 said: My apologies ... Some people get carried away with the impressiveness of blingy looking setups - and think this solves all problems ... So what if they do? Who are you to deny them their hapiness? Teresa, The Computer Audiophile and mav52 2 1 Link to comment
Popular Post Tin Posted April 14, 2019 Popular Post Share Posted April 14, 2019 1 hour ago, The Computer Audiophile said: I don’t think I’ve ever met such a person. Opening a very shiny can of worms here, but I couldn't resist. I'll be leaving now. 😇 christopher3393, Axial and audiobomber 3 Link to comment
Tin Posted April 14, 2019 Share Posted April 14, 2019 41 minutes ago, Ralf11 said: Where did you "read that plain RCA provides better S/N over (very) short distances. The writer being the chief engineer of a well known equipment brand." I'd like to see his analysis It was Linn, in a discussion on their forums, but as they closed everything down I can't find the discussion anymore. I also can't remember at which distance balanced gets the edge. Anyway, my point was that it is debatable, which is what is happening. Link to comment
Tin Posted April 15, 2019 Share Posted April 15, 2019 5 hours ago, fas42 said: Yes, everyone is entitled to fun whichever way they want ... you could say, as one alternative, "Some people don't use their equipment to listen to music. Some people use music to listen to their equipment." ... hmmm, that feels strangely familiar ... I'm sure it does, but you can listen to your equipment all you want, and it's nobodys business but yours. You should seriously read the editorial above this thread and lighten the hell up. Link to comment
Tin Posted April 17, 2019 Share Posted April 17, 2019 On 4/15/2019 at 7:44 AM, fas42 said: Be as light as you, IOW? No, I don't consider myself to be The Measure Of All Things. That's actually all there is to it. Link to comment
Tin Posted April 18, 2019 Share Posted April 18, 2019 The playback qualities 3 hours ago, The Computer Audiophile said: For some people it’s tubes for others it’s tunes and for many it isn’t one or the other. Either way, who really cares. i think I'd let both pass, I wouldn't be locking myself up in a room in the 60s. Much more fun to be had in other places. Yeah baby. Link to comment
Popular Post Tin Posted April 22, 2019 Popular Post Share Posted April 22, 2019 3 minutes ago, The Computer Audiophile said: It has been discussed over the years here and probably elsewhere. Similar to the term "value." Ah "value"... such a nice can o' worms. Give me unlimited funds and I'd buy a watch that costs more than my dream car, which in turn costs more than my dream setup. To be honest, I have limited imagination when it comes to dream setups, but still, the picking order is very clear to me. But as things are, my setup costs more than my car, and my watch is broken and I can't be bothered about it. Paul R, 4est and audiobomber 1 2 Link to comment
Popular Post Tin Posted April 23, 2019 Popular Post Share Posted April 23, 2019 7 hours ago, Ralf11 said: it's about the pebbles... re value - I'd think value would relate more to the increment in SQ per $$ (or per unit of DIY hassle, etc.) to get at "better SQ" - I'd recognize that better is really a multi-factorial concept, and different people rate those factors differently - e.g. getting the max. bass extension is not always well correlated with Bass slam", much less "getting the mid-range right" (my fav Brit. Fi term - and they are right...) Not only multi-factorial, but those 'facts' can even be contradicting. It's a lot about the music, acoustics of the room, and equipment you grew up with, and the memories you attached to it. It's no different from smelling something that brings back memories really. Ralf11 and Teresa 2 Link to comment
Recommended Posts
Create an account or sign in to comment
You need to be a member in order to leave a comment
Create an account
Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!
Register a new accountSign in
Already have an account? Sign in here.
Sign In Now