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Your Input Requested - What Is Right And Ethical In This Audio Equipment Sale Disaster


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11 minutes ago, TubeLover said:

given how things happened, he neither wanted or expected a cent of his money back. Does that somehow not matter in evaluating the situation?

 

Yes, morally, for you. I would have thought from second #1 "no way it will be happening like that". So as soon as you accepted that situation things were bound to go wrong.

 

I have a situation at hand, not really similar, that someone purchased a Lush^2, told one hour later that he had to cancel the order, but his email about that ended up in my spam box and I only found the email when his cable was under way already. Now he likes to send it back under the rule that everybody can return BUT "the shipping costs are yours (both ways)".

This is about $50 only. I guess it is nobody's fault that his email ended up in my spam box, unless it is his (between very large quotes). So I must pay for the shipping ? morally yes. But it is too hard to do for real (and $50 only). So many principles at stake. But ... the best thing to do is make that customer happy which not even turns out to be a customer.

Now back to your situation ... :)

Lush^3-e      Lush^2      Blaxius^2.5      Ethernet^3     HDMI^2     XLR^2

XXHighEnd (developer)

Phasure NOS1 24/768 Async USB DAC (manufacturer)

Phasure Mach III Audio PC with Linear PSU (manufacturer)

Orelino & Orelo MKII Speakers (designer/supplier)

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Or another one ...

 

I sell a pair of speakers and amplifiers (for $12K) to an existing customer. This is not a commercial trade but a personal transaction. He does not have all the money yet so he offers a down payment and will purchase for real in 6 months or so of time. I tell him that no down payment is needed. A next person asks for the (2nd hand) speakers and I have to reject.

Within those six months the buyer gets divorced. He can't obtain the speakers any more and with great apologies cancels the purchase.

Now I am happy.

 

We know what a down payment is for, right ?

So if I would have had accepted the down payment, I undoubtedly would be legitimate in keeping it AND keep the speakers when he would have canceled the order. He, who is unexpectedly in financial troubles to begin with.

 

Can you understand my happy ?

How much more difficult would it have been to even send back that money. Instead now virtually nothing happened (including not selling the speakers at all because that other person disappeared on the horizon when the speakers became available again).

 

I think this is 100% your situation and if I had accepted the down payment I would have created this thread for you. :/

And I know, the history with your friend urged for the arrangement as you did it. But still ...

Read your own title. It contains "ethical". So you know what to do ... yes.gif.afa5a1a0cfe128b7da08f4ba13417aa2.gif

Lush^3-e      Lush^2      Blaxius^2.5      Ethernet^3     HDMI^2     XLR^2

XXHighEnd (developer)

Phasure NOS1 24/768 Async USB DAC (manufacturer)

Phasure Mach III Audio PC with Linear PSU (manufacturer)

Orelino & Orelo MKII Speakers (designer/supplier)

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14 hours ago, AnotherSpin said:

It looks purely imaginary – friendship, loss of difference between $4000 and $2500, etc. Time to dig deeper within yourself.

There have been a number of comments in the same spirit as this one, and I understand them. I have given this situation an immense amount of thought, I can tell you that regardless of what takes place from here on, as unfortunate as it is, the friendship is clearly and ultimately over from my perspective.

 

A true friend does not back out of a sweetheart deal from another friend, that he committed to. Much less one that he absolutely promised to go through with when sternly questioned at the time. I had concerns from some previous situations, and I asked him, up front, if he would guarantee, and promise, that this was truly what he wanted, a done deal, and one he would honor to completion.

 

A true friend does not back out of such a deal at the last minute, particularly for no good reason, knowing that his failure to make good on his promise had just put me in the position of having turned down an alternate $4000.00 deal, with the speakers being picked up in days by another party.

 

A true friend does not then also then state that "it's not about the money, I could care less about the money. You don't need to pay me back, I don't need the money back, and I don't expect you to pay me back, it's my fault that it worked out this way!"  and come back to me nearly a year later demanding his money and wanting to know when he would be getting it! I went out of my way offering him at least some of his money back months ago, something I had no responsibility to do, but clearly that wasn't good enough. 

 

Additionally this situation forced me into the position of having the speakers essentially eliminate use of my spare bedroom for most of a year. It also put me in the position of placing repeated for sale ads in numerous places, and caused me entire days of lost time working with people traveling from as far away as 500 miles to purchase the speakers. Providing directions, walking them in to my extremely confusing geographic area, having people on hand to assist in loading the equipment, etc. etc. etc. 

 

I have always prided myself in being unquestionably honest and ethical. I've sold a ton of audio equipment over the years and have gone well out of my way to make customers happy. This, though, is a very different situation. A friend does not put me into the position he has, for any number of reasons. Even give that, and all of the above, I now plan to pay him back the entire $2,500.00. Do I feel he is entitled to that full amount? No. Will I feel better after paying it to him? Absolutely not, in fact, it will likely leave me angry and bitter about the entire situation for as long as I remember it.

 

Paying him immediately is also very inconvenient right at this point in time due to some major (at least to me) recent unexpected financial setbacks, but I can still accomplish it. I will pace an order to cash in my one remaining stock, and contact my tax guy on Monday, and tell him that I need him to file for an extension (on money I owe unexpectedly due to my former employers pension mistake). I should be able to pay that off to the IRS, with interest, obviously, after six months to put together the funds.  But, sometimes taking the path of being the better person is simply one that should be taken. He will get every cent of his money, and his last and final contact with me early next week.

 

Thanks again for everyone who commented on what is, at least to me, a situation with no possible positive ending. I appreciate all of your perspectives.

 

JC

 

 

 

 

 

 

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When something does not go as we want or expect we call it a problem. Somebody didn't behave as we want, or Earth spins too slow, or too fast, does not matter. Everything is in our thinking only, beyond our thinking there are no problems. As long as you going to be angry and bitter about this you will nourish and preserve a problem which you and only you are entirely responsible for. As somebody told above your integrity is the only thing you better care about. Get over it and have your peace back, all the rest does not matter or exist.

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11 hours ago, Paul R said:

 

People lie about money more than they lie about sex.

 

  It  is just the way things are.

 

Best to keep money way off the board when dealing with a friend. For example, never loan a friend money and expect to see it come back to you as promised. If it does, a pleasant surprise. If not. Then it was what you expected, no? 

Well said Paul. And also a reason for a major part of my irritation here. This "friend" has loaned, in some cases, up to $10k to people and freely admitted that he didn't expect to see a cent of it back, and would never ask for it back. And many of these "loans" are ten or more years old and he has acted as he said. Yet he busts my chops and demands payment now in a mess that he solely created? 

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11 hours ago, AnotherSpin said:

When something does not go as we want or expect we call it a problem. Somebody didn't behave as we want, or Earth spins too slow, or too fast, does not matter. Everything is in our thinking only, beyond our thinking there are no problems. As long as you going to be angry and bitter about this you will nourish and preserve a problem which you and only you are entirely responsible for. As somebody told above your integrity is the only thing you better care about. Get over it and have your peace back, all the rest does not matter or exist.

I realize that I did not take action that could have resolved this entire mess and left me at peace about it now. In the beginning, when he  pulled out of the deal, after having paid me, I should have simply had the speakers delivered, on the day that had been designated, and if he refused to let the guys I hired bring them into his home, I should have instructed them to leave them on his front porch (which they would have completely filled). That would have been the end of the whole thing for me and I erred in not following that path. 

 

JC

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On 4/4/2019 at 9:40 AM, TubeLover said:

his occasional irrational moods

 

Coming into this thread late, and not knowing either of you, this is just speculation but... your friend probably has bipolar disorder.  If so, then just know you consistently tried to do the right thing, and — without knowing what you know now — there is nothing you could have done that would have made this turn out any better. Just be done with it, and with him. You're not family.

 

When manic, it would be very common for such a person to irrationally purchase things he cannot afford and has no room for. When depressed, he will suddenly cancel everything regardless of the fallout. In both situations, he will argue his case well and will not be dissuaded. It's hopeless. I've been through or watched many similar situations, and I once saw a much larger transaction — for a house — fall through at great cost to everyone involved in exactly the same way. Over the years I've known at least five people with that disorder. They had very different personalities, with very different mood swing ranges. Some were really good people at heart, and most were well-meaning and harmless, but one or two were really mean and nasty when at the extreme ends of their cycles. In all cases the problems were very deep, and very confusing to the rest of us.

 

It's usually hard to truly blame a person with this disorder for what they've done, except maybe to blame him for not taking meds. Some don't like the meds because they make them feel blah. But meanwhile, we feel anything but "blah" about what they've done. It's very frustrating. We'd like to think that knowing all this, we can remain friends and just gently tell them "No" when necessary, but that seldom if ever happens until it's too late. All I can say is, if I'm right about this, just move on.

Everyone wants to date my avatar.

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On 4/4/2019 at 2:48 PM, Ralf11 said:

How much do you care about the $2,500??  Didn't you buy the very expensive Audi R8 recently?  if that was you, then $2,500 should be a trifle.

Rule #2 for me is “don’t count other people’s money”.  [Rule #1 is “don’t do business with friends or relatives”.]

 

The OP knew his friend’s behavioral history going into this - he did this before and he’ll do it again.  He sounds like a classic impulse buyer who doesn’t think things through before committing and suffers early onset buyer’s remorse.  If the guy won’t accept an amount back that keeps you whole, he has no recourse and deserves no more, IMO. 

 

This, of course, assumes that we know the whole story. We only know one side, and the other guy may have a different recollection of the encounter (accurate or not).

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On 4/6/2019 at 2:42 PM, left channel said:

 

Coming into this thread late, and not knowing either of you, this is just speculation but... your friend probably has bipolar disorder.  If so, then just know you consistently tried to do the right thing, and — without knowing what you know now — there is nothing you could have done that would have made this turn out any better. Just be done with it, and with him. You're not family.

 

When manic, it would be very common for such a person to irrationally purchase things he cannot afford and has no room for. When depressed, he will suddenly cancel everything regardless of the fallout. In both situations, he will argue his case well and will not be dissuaded. It's hopeless. I've been through or watched many similar situations, and I once saw a much larger transaction — for a house — fall through at great cost to everyone involved in exactly the same way. Over the years I've known at least five people with that disorder. They had very different personalities, with very different mood swing ranges. Some were really good people at heart, and most were well-meaning and harmless, but one or two were really mean and nasty when at the extreme ends of their cycles. In all cases the problems were very deep, and very confusing to the rest of us.

 

It's usually hard to truly blame a person with this disorder for what they've done, except maybe to blame him for not taking meds. Some don't like the meds because they make them feel blah. But meanwhile, we feel anything but "blah" about what they've done. It's very frustrating. We'd like to think that knowing all this, we can remain friends and just gently tell them "No" when necessary, but that seldom if ever happens until it's too late. All I can say is, if I'm right about this, just move on.

So we are now doing psychiatric diagnosis on an audio forum from quite a paucity of information?  I think this is a little too far.  You might even be right, but there is just too little information to go on. 

 

Talk to some people who do sales for a living.  The situation and reactions that are typical of any sizable purchase could be diagnosed as you have.  I knew one new car salesman who said, "everybody is sick the day after they buy a new car.  They wonder if having spent that much money they really wanted it all that much.  Well every normal person."

 

I think this approach-avoidance curve explains why most people have some tendency for such behavior with purchasing objects of considerable expense.  Stretching out the time between agreeing to a deal and concluding a deal like happened here will only exacerbate the situation.  

 

Image result for approach avoidance conflict

And always keep in mind: Cognitive biases, like seeing optical illusions are a sign of a normally functioning brain. We all have them, it’s nothing to be ashamed about, but it is something that affects our objective evaluation of reality. 

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18 minutes ago, esldude said:

So we are now doing psychiatric diagnosis on an audio forum from quite a paucity of information?  I think this is a little too far.  You might even be right, but there is just too little information to go on. 

 

Talk to some people who do sales for a living.  The situation and reactions that are typical of any sizable purchase could be diagnosed as you have.  I knew one new car salesman who said, "everybody is sick the day after they buy a new car.  They wonder if having spent that much money they really wanted it all that much.  Well every normal person."

 

I think this approach-avoidance curve explains why most people have some tendency for such behavior with purchasing objects of considerable expense.  Stretching out the time between agreeing to a deal and concluding a deal like happened here will only exacerbate the situation.  

 

Image result for approach avoidance conflict

 

My guess, and that's all it can be for any of us here, was based on more than just the failed transaction. There are other clues in the story. But that is interesting, thanks.

Everyone wants to date my avatar.

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On 4/6/2019 at 3:42 PM, left channel said:

When manic, it would be very common for such a person to irrationally purchase things he cannot afford and has no room for. When depressed, he will suddenly cancel everything regardless of the fallout. In both situations, he will argue his case well and will not be dissuaded. It's hopeless

Remember the wise old saying (often attributed to Freud with no evidence at all that he ever said or wrote it) that "sometimes a cigar is just a cigar".  Impulse buying is common, as is buyer's remorse. In my experience (which includes having been a licensed physician for 44 years and a practicing surgeon for about 35), most weirdness is simply weirdness rather than serious psychopathology.  Few people take the time and expend the energy to determine and consider the potential consequences (for themselves or others) of most of their actions.  They want what they want when they want it, and the next day, they want something else.  So they regret yesterday's decision and often try to negate or reverse it.  This is childish, inconsiderate, and immature - but whether it constitutes frank illness depends on a lot more than one simple and repeatable pattern of behavior.

 

The good news for audiophiles (and discriminating people of all hobbyist persuasions) is that such behavior often results in some great, briefly owned stuff of high quality at bargain prices 😁

 

And, of course, there's also the wisdom of the great sage Huey Lewis:  "Sometimes bad is bad."

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38 minutes ago, bluesman said:

Remember the wise old saying (often attributed to Freud with no evidence at all that he ever said or wrote it) that "sometimes a cigar is just a cigar".  Impulse buying is common, as is buyer's remorse. In my experience (which includes having been a licensed physician for 44 years and a practicing surgeon for about 35), most weirdness is simply weirdness rather than serious psychopathology.  Few people take the time and expend the energy to determine and consider the potential consequences (for themselves or others) of most of their actions.  They want what they want when they want it, and the next day, they want something else.  So they regret yesterday's decision and often try to negate or reverse it.  This is childish, inconsiderate, and immature - but whether it constitutes frank illness depends on a lot more than one simple and repeatable pattern of behavior.

 

The good news for audiophiles (and discriminating people of all hobbyist persuasions) is that such behavior often results in some great, briefly owned stuff of high quality at bargain prices 😁

 

And, of course, there's also the wisdom of the great sage Huey Lewis:  "Sometimes bad is bad."

 

The behavioral problems described by the OP go far beyond the transaction itself, and are way outside the range you and esldude describe. In my experience, which is unfortunately quite extensive, the training and practices of even the most highly skilled physicians and surgeons are usually not sufficient preparation to recognize or treat mental illness, isolated as most are from their colleagues in psychiatry and psychopharmacology. Coordinating medical care to treat a whole person often requires friends and family members to regularly move multiple mountains all on their own, often to no avail.

Everyone wants to date my avatar.

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38 minutes ago, left channel said:

 

The behavioral problems described by the OP go far beyond the transaction itself, and are way outside the range you and esldude describe. In my experience, which is unfortunately quite extensive, the training and practices of even the most highly skilled physicians and surgeons are usually not sufficient preparation to recognize or treat mental illness, isolated as most are from their colleagues in psychiatry and psychopharmacology. Coordinating medical care to treat a whole person often requires friends and family members to regularly move multiple mountains all on their own, often to no avail.

 

Amen. And then sometimes your heart just breaks because nothing works. 

 

That you can not can’t fix broken people is a hard and painful lesson to learn.  😕

 

 

Anyone who considers protocol unimportant has never dealt with a cat DAC.

Robert A. Heinlein

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4 hours ago, left channel said:

In my experience, which is unfortunately quite extensive, the training and practices of even the most highly skilled physicians and surgeons are usually not sufficient preparation to recognize or treat mental illness, isolated as most are from their colleagues in psychiatry and psychopharmacology.

Hmmm.  The spectrum of knowledge, skill, experience and judgement is as broad for physicians as it is for audiophiles and every other subset of humans.  And the dichotomy between recognizing and treating mental illness is as clear and wide as that between recognizing good sound and designing an amplifier or speaker that produces it. 

 

With very few exceptions, surgeons don't want to treat mental illness just as audiophiles don't want to repair their equipment.  But surgeons who work with and rely on mental health professionals for supportive patient consultation are common, and it is precisely the ability to recognize a potential need for such interaction that makes it happen.  Such support is critical in oncology, trauma, plastic & reconstructive surgery, obstetrics, bariatrics, geriatrics and many other areas.  We also recognize the perils of diagnosing with neither direct patient contact nor sufficient facts to support a reasonable differential. FWIW, so do the AMA and the APA.

 

The behavior exhibited by the OP's friend & would-be-buyer may be part of a number of abnormal spectra. But diagnosing the dude is 'way off topic here and perhaps even inappropriate. What's relevant and likely to be of general interest is how we all might recognize signs that a potential buyer is a bit wonky and/or that a proposed deal is frought with peril.  Your input could be of great help. There are several such clues in this thread, beginning with 

  • "[He] committed to purchase equipment from me, and then realizing that he was going to have to rearrange his house, change things, or for whatever other reasons that entered his mind, had backed out, at the last minute. One of those situations, in particular,  caused me some big headaches"
  • "[M]y friend called me, and in one of his occasional irrational moods, told me that I needed to cancel the delivery, that he had made a mistake. He no longer wanted the speakers, it was just all going to be too much of a problem for him to deal with."

If something just doesn't seem quite right, it probably isn't.  Not all friendships are the same - some are enduring despite major obstacles, and some are tenuous and fragile.  Most of us have a pretty good idea of which is which, based to a significant amount on historical behavior and interaction (e.g. incidents such as those described by the OP).  The earlier you say "no" (preferably before any money changes hands), the easier it is to preserve a valued friendship when red flags are flying.  Some of the described behavior occurs because a spouse or SO is fed up with a steady stream of toys, has alternative plans for the money / space / time / effort, etc.  Even close friends may not be aware of this kind of discord.  It went too far for the OP to avoid fallout, and the best possible solution at this point is probably just the least of the evils.  

 

So if anything makes you think "I probably shouldn't do this", you probably shouldn't do it.

 

PS:  You describe a dichotomy between physicians and surgeons that simply doesn't exist.  Surgeons are physicians who know how to operate.

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3 hours ago, left channel said:

I offer that one last point just to show I read your entire reply.

 

If you did read it all, do we assume that you're unwilling to provide your expertise to help us as requested (copy below)?

 

4 hours ago, bluesman said:

What's relevant and likely to be of general interest is how we all might recognize signs that a potential buyer is a bit wonky and/or that a proposed deal is frought with peril.  Your input could be of great help. [bolding & italics added by me in case you didn't see it on your first read]

 

If you would be so kind, please expound on what we all might look for to suggest that a potential buyer or seller is best avoided? This really is a timely and important topic for the AS community, as raised by the OP.  None of us wants to treat mental illness - we simply want to avoid the kind of situation in which JC finds himself.

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caveat emptor / caveat venditor should always be on our mind.  I have been seling my equipment by posting in a local forum and it happens all the time that those "buyers" will not keep their words.  Some will ask you to hold it for them but later disappear without even telling you that he changed his mind of buying.  Some will repeatedly ask for a lower price without even offering a price he would consider.  Because of all those troubles, recently I just ask the second hand shop to collect them at a much lower price than I would get from a buyer from the forum.  No audition, no invoice, no warranty card, no box, no manual is needed and minimize all those troubles.

MetalNuts

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13 hours ago, bluesman said:

The good news for audiophiles (and discriminating people of all hobbyist persuasions) is that such behavior often results in some great, briefly owned stuff of high quality at bargain prices 😁

Yes, you are right.  I was and may be still am such person who bought some gear and kept it briefly say a few months to a year then sell them though I keep some other gear for years. 🤣

MetalNuts

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15 hours ago, bluesman said:

Hmmm.  The spectrum of knowledge, skill, experience and judgement is as broad for physicians as it is for audiophiles and every other subset of humans.  And the dichotomy between recognizing and treating mental illness is as clear and wide as that between recognizing good sound and designing an amplifier or speaker that produces it. 

 

With very few exceptions, surgeons don't want to treat mental illness just as audiophiles don't want to repair their equipment.  But surgeons who work with and rely on mental health professionals for supportive patient consultation are common, and it is precisely the ability to recognize a potential need for such interaction that makes it happen.  Such support is critical in oncology, trauma, plastic & reconstructive surgery, obstetrics, bariatrics, geriatrics and many other areas.  We also recognize the perils of diagnosing with neither direct patient contact nor sufficient facts to support a reasonable differential. FWIW, so do the AMA and the APA.

 

The behavior exhibited by the OP's friend & would-be-buyer may be part of a number of abnormal spectra. But diagnosing the dude is 'way off topic here and perhaps even inappropriate. What's relevant and likely to be of general interest is how we all might recognize signs that a potential buyer is a bit wonky and/or that a proposed deal is frought with peril.  Your input could be of great help. There are several such clues in this thread, beginning with 

  • "[He] committed to purchase equipment from me, and then realizing that he was going to have to rearrange his house, change things, or for whatever other reasons that entered his mind, had backed out, at the last minute. One of those situations, in particular,  caused me some big headaches"
  • "[M]y friend called me, and in one of his occasional irrational moods, told me that I needed to cancel the delivery, that he had made a mistake. He no longer wanted the speakers, it was just all going to be too much of a problem for him to deal with."

If something just doesn't seem quite right, it probably isn't.  Not all friendships are the same - some are enduring despite major obstacles, and some are tenuous and fragile.  Most of us have a pretty good idea of which is which, based to a significant amount on historical behavior and interaction (e.g. incidents such as those described by the OP).  The earlier you say "no" (preferably before any money changes hands), the easier it is to preserve a valued friendship when red flags are flying.  Some of the described behavior occurs because a spouse or SO is fed up with a steady stream of toys, has alternative plans for the money / space / time / effort, etc.  Even close friends may not be aware of this kind of discord.  It went too far for the OP to avoid fallout, and the best possible solution at this point is probably just the least of the evils.  

 

So if anything makes you think "I probably shouldn't do this", you probably shouldn't do it.

 

PS:  You describe a dichotomy between physicians and surgeons that simply doesn't exist.  Surgeons are physicians who know how to operate.

Despite being a crusty old curmudgeon, I like your posts... Perhaps I am one too?  ;)

Forrest:

Win10 i9 9900KS/GTX1060 HQPlayer4>Win10 NAA

DSD>Pavel's DSC2.6>Bent Audio TAP>

Parasound JC1>"Naked" Quad ESL63/Tannoy PS350B subs<100Hz

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2 hours ago, 4est said:

Despite being a crusty old curmudgeon, I like your posts... Perhaps I am one too?  ;)

Thanks!  You are if you agree with Mamet that youth & exuberance are no match for age and treachery.

 

Remember our motto:  “The older you get, the fewer knobs you need”

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