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Computer Storage - Best Practices

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32 minutes ago, mansr said:

They are apparently not interested in learning that most aspects of storage devices are simply not relevant for sound quality.

 

was having this discussion with an engineer colleague at work...
if a digital bit is just a 1 or 0... and it's all going to a machine that will C that D to an A
why does it matter what machine sends that 1 or 0 and how it's sent?
i apologize and i'm not trying to stir up an argument
i just want to know what is wrong with my logic above

in the interest of preventing any further arguments - may i suggest that if you agree with the above and to you a "bit is a bit" - please refrain from posting a response that calls the other side "unicorn believers" etc etc

and from the side that believes for example "SD Card is far superior than SSD" for SQ... does anyone have a thought as to why? I'll start... is it possible that one bus is more error-prone on reproducing these 0's and 1's?...

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41 minutes ago, mansr said:

They are apparently not interested in learning that most aspects of storage devices are simply not relevant for sound quality.

 

Are you sure?

 


 


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2 minutes ago, mansr said:

The error rates of typical storage devices are vanishingly low. If they were not, nothing would work reliably.

 

Then explain why for the last generation oHDD we moved from RS codes to LDPC codes.


 


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7 minutes ago, alfe said:

Then explain why for the last generation oHDD we moved from RS codes to LDPC codes.

To achieve said low error rate at the external interface, presumably. As long as the drive responds correctly to ATA commands, nobody needs to care how it manages to do this. The type of error correcting codes used internally isn't going to influence the sound when an audio file is played back. You know this.

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On 4/25/2019 at 10:05 PM, marce said:

What is it then Motberg... since you seem to disagree...

I could do with a laugh

 

you used the qualifier "all".. as such I disagree as it seems there is also a lot of experience and craftsmanship used in the design of audio reproduction equipment

 

I hope that cheers up your day!

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7 hours ago, sandyk said:

little relevance

 

this is a core problem - you don't seem to realize that is is completely relevant - that is fundamental to digital storage and transmission

 

if you don't like electronic signals, we can use DNA

 

or RNA

 

 


"The overwhelming majority [of audiophiles] have very little knowledge, if any, about the most basic principles and operating characteristics of audio equipment. They often base their purchasing decisions on hearsay, and the preaching of media sages. Unfortunately, because of commercial considerations, much information is rooted in increasing revenue, not in assisting the audiophile. It seems as if the only requirements for becoming an "authority" in the world of audio is a keyboard."

-- Bruce Rozenblit of Transcendent Sound

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10 hours ago, abulr said:

 

was having this discussion with an engineer colleague at work...
if a digital bit is just a 1 or 0... and it's all going to a machine that will C that D to an A
why does it matter what machine sends that 1 or 0 and how it's sent?
i apologize and i'm not trying to stir up an argument
i just want to know what is wrong with my logic above

in the interest of preventing any further arguments - may i suggest that if you agree with the above and to you a "bit is a bit" - please refrain from posting a response that calls the other side "unicorn believers" etc etc

and from the side that believes for example "SD Card is far superior than SSD" for SQ... does anyone have a thought as to why? I'll start... is it possible that one bus is more error-prone on reproducing these 0's and 1's?...

I suspect there is a trade off where an SSD while not bad in and of itself, can be  a bad USB out  neighbor inside the computer chassis. I don't believe that read errors are the issue here so much as an electrically dirty environment from read activity causing bad sound with USB out. I'd prefer to see digital audio players read playlists to memory and "lock out" disk read/write during audio processing.


Regards,

Dave

 

Audio system

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On 4/26/2019 at 1:25 PM, mansr said:

apparently not interested in learning 

 

Entirely your and the likeminded choice if you want to assume a teaching role. However, as in real life that should go along with sensing when, where and how these ''lessons'' are communicated. Shoving one's convictions down throats at every turn is not the way.

 

 

On 4/26/2019 at 1:25 PM, mansr said:

most aspects of storage devices are simply not relevant for sound quality.

 

From where I stand no more and no less than an opinion. And for each opinion there is an opposing opinion of equal strenght. So where does that leave us? Making statements as if they're universally accepted facts like the sun, moon and stars exist, even more so in this type of online space is a large part of what I take issue with.

 

Now for god's sake, let us steer back to the discussion.

@Nenon any progress or update?

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48 minutes ago, moriez said:

@Nenon any progress or update?

 

I was patiently waiting for you guys to finish arguing :). But it would be nice to go back on topic.

 

I have been waiting for various parts, so I can perform different tests. Most orders are arriving next week, some will take longer. But I will post any updates worth mentioning. 

 

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Dusted off an old Sabrent "toaster" for 2.5/3.5" drives, believe it only does SATA II but does support USB3.

It accepts 12V DC, verified I can power up a HD/SSD using an LPS 1.2. Will try some comparisons using the LPS 1.2

as power source between

 

existing Lexar USB3 attached media stack with 2x 512GB  SDXC

Sabrent disk device with  generic 5400 RPM 500GB HD

Sabrent disk device with 128GB Crucal MX100 SSD

 

not the latest greatest media storage tech, but will see...


Regards,

Dave

 

Audio system

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Sometimes with an existing PC it is possible to plug a SATA cable directly into the HDD inside the enclosure and the other end of the SATA cable through an opening in the PC's case. Just keep the SATA cable short.


"If you can't hear the difference between an original CD and a copy of your CD,

you might as well give up your career as a tester. The difference between a reconstituted FLAC and full size WAV is much less than that, but it does exist. - Cookie Marenco"

 

PROFILE UPDATED 18-06-2019

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On 4/26/2019 at 6:15 PM, davide256 said:

I suspect there is a trade off where an SSD while not bad in and of itself, can be  a bad USB out  neighbor inside the computer chassis. I don't believe that read errors are the issue here so much as an electrically dirty environment from read activity causing bad sound with USB out. I'd prefer to see digital audio players read playlists to memory and "lock out" disk read/write during audio processing.

 

This is what i mean - why don't audio programs do this already? surprising - i read that BitPerfect loads into memory... idk

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On 4/28/2019 at 10:12 AM, davide256 said:

Could take a while for comparisons  as each listening comparison  requires rebooting server and 

switching media type &/or connections

 

Did a first pass with CD soundtrack of Dances with Wolves, John Barry composer. 

 

HD sound was pleasant, detailed, good tone color but seemed rolled off on extreme highs and hard sound transient edges

SSD was aggressively bright but much better on extreme highs and hard sound transient edges

SDXC was better balanced than SSD, with same correctness on highs and hard sound transients but still seemed a little forward

on overall treble spectrum


What I  noted with both SSD and SDXC was a tendency to excite what I believe is 3rd order harmonic distortion. Using max oversampling

in Roon with SSD and SDXC  to push DAC chip distortion components higher in frequency mitigated aggressiveness  but

spectrum balance differences remained. With HD I preferred no oversampling.

 

Still playing around with this

 

1) tried a 3.5" 4TB WD Red, possibly a little duller on transients than the 500GB 2.5" drive, not an appreciable difference

2) discovering that treble aggressiveness depends on the quality of PS used with server NUC and media drives. On continued listening

with stock SMPS on server and LPS 1.2 with 2.5" drive I could hear aggressiveness in mid treble... I suspect the dilution of upper treble

masked this initially vs SDXC/SSD. Dedicating the SoTM SPS-500 to the server NUC greatly reduced the edgy aggressive sound of massed high pitch violins

and electronic sounds for both 2.5" and SDXC media drives.

3) have ordered a 1TB 7200 RPM 2.5 Seagate Barracuda pro (no SSD components) and a newer 12v docking station that does support SATA III as

its possible that slower SATAII/drive RPM's could be affecting treble transients.


Regards,

Dave

 

Audio system

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If not too far off topic, I'd like to jump in here with a side question, having read Nenon's introductory summary post... In my living room system, I play music from a modified Oppo 203 (digital only) to a DirectStream dac (s/pdif and iFi spdif purifier w/SR4), and then onto ATC active floorstanders and JL Audio subs (+ better cables, power, etc.). While I have a slew of mostly older CDs, it's easier most of the time to play music files -- mostly flac, dsd, wav, w/ some mp3 -- either using a USB flash drive plugged into the 203 or, most frequently, an encased SSD connected to the 203 via a Totaldac USB cable/filter (the latter used to be part of my mostly disassembled desktop PC audio system). Control is via remotes (203, dac). In light of this thread, how would you see this use of USB/SSD? Keeping it simple so far, I don't have a streamer, and haven't set up a router extension to use the DirectStream's Bridge card to play music from my Win 10 laptop or iPad Mini. Thanks,

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that's fine - the Oppo has a good DAC in it

 

if a concern you may be able to find a way to galvanically isolate the storage unit from the Oppo


"The overwhelming majority [of audiophiles] have very little knowledge, if any, about the most basic principles and operating characteristics of audio equipment. They often base their purchasing decisions on hearsay, and the preaching of media sages. Unfortunately, because of commercial considerations, much information is rooted in increasing revenue, not in assisting the audiophile. It seems as if the only requirements for becoming an "authority" in the world of audio is a keyboard."

-- Bruce Rozenblit of Transcendent Sound

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